It's not been easy TO leave, though. Family members cracking down on us and telling us that we must be involved with a church! Meanwhile, they never liked the church we did attend. So as I've been doing my best to explain, they choose to turn deaf ears.
When to Leave Church
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How about a former catholic reporting on this? At this site, he lusts more than ten Popes.
The Roman Catholic Popes Evil Behavior
The official Catholic site do not deny the bad Popes but gives an answer for them.
What about the bad Popes?
Do feel free to cite that answer and whether or not you agree with it.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well your not so subtle implications of me being unspiritual notwithstanding: The world disapproves of me as well as teh hysterical fringe of Christians who practice intolerance of virtue in the name of christ.
Yes I have been practicing that verse maybe longer than you have been alive!
YOu need to learn the difference between practice and intenet.
You look on teh surface, but God ses the heart and will work His will in the lives of His children. Definitely too slow for you to approve of, but He will accomplish it!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
You are a careless reader of Scripture.
25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
The bride does not go out to meet the bridegroom. Teh brides maids do! The church is the bride and the virgins are the non church saints who have been saved apart from teh dhurch (Pentecost to the rapture)
Couple this with REv. 19 and you see a crowd assembled to witness Jesus marry the church!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
This is an anti-Catholic site, with some truth mixed with lies. The last one on Pius XII is a big fat whopper.
The only official Catholic site is the catechism and bad popes are not denied by Catholics.
What about the bad Popes? Did you bother to listen to the video? The only reason you keep harping on centuries old bad popes is because you think it discredits the whole Church. It doesn't. You just don't like our explanations so you ignore them. "Bad popes" is a stupid canard repeated endlessly by people who hate the Church. Does corruption and atrocities committed by the reformers discredit Protestantism??? The Apostles did not abandon Peter because of Judas and neither should anyone. (which is what you are suggesting.) Knock it off.
We believe in faith that the Church is infallible and indefectible, based on many biblical indications. It is theoretically possible (speaking in terms of philosophy or epistemology) that the Church could stray and have to be rejected, but the Bible rules that out. We believe in faith that it has not and will not.
Protestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.
We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davea...-and-the-dichotomous-protestant-tendency.htmlProtestants don’t have enough faith to believe that God could preserve an infallible Church, even though they can muster up even more faith than that, which is required to believe in an infallible Bible written by a bunch of sinners and hypocrites.
We simply have more faith than you guys do. It’s a supernatural gift. We believe that the authoritative Church is also a key part of God’s plan to save the souls of men. We follow the model of the Jerusalem Council, whereas you guys reject that or ignore it, because it doesn’t fit in with the man-made tradition of Protestantism and a supposedly non-infallible Church.
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As long as that has been established by you & me, then that is all I wished to state.
I know that believers, including Protestants do not want to believe that their church can do no wrong, but everybody seems to be overlooking the fact that Jesus is rebuking 5 out of 7 churches for doing wrong in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation and why they should prove everything by Christ Jesus of their church's teachings by the scripture because so far, no church denomination cares to prove or disprove their catechism by the scriptures.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
You are welcome to search the CCC for yourself.
How to Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Revelation does not disprove infallibility, a term constantly misrepresented by anti-Catholics. The term is incomprehensible to a sola scripturist, so if you want to reinvent the wheel and defend SS, be my guest. I like Revelation too...
The Book of Revelation and the Holy Mass
The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.
Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven's identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church's identification on earth.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as "alter Christuses" (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests ("presbyteroi") in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus' eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8 - heaven's liturgical chant "Holy, Holy, Holy" is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God's word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven's description of Jesus as the "Lamb" is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven's emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven's concluding liturgical prayer "Amen" is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church's tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.
Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross ("tau") in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God's family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.
Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 11:12 - the phrase "come up here" is similar to the priest's charge to "lift up your hearts" at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven's emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:7 - heaven's emphasis on the Archangel Michael's intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ's sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the "Gloria" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven's marriage supper is the same as the Lamb's supper in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the "Alleluia" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
The Book of Revelation and the Holy Mass(Catholic Caucus)
Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
Quoting from Link: ~~~~
"Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God.... and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321"
How you read this portion of the Catholic Catechism?
If the Catholic Church was THE Church of Peter to rule over all churches, why didn't Jesus referred these 7 churches to that Church for abiding in Him?
You should consider that as reinventing the wheel by the Catholic Church.
Isn't it an oxymoron to deny scripture only but then what the Catholic Church insists on as valid church's tradition, they resort to sola scriptura?
Scripture cannot go against scripture is the only reason why the Catholic Church is not sola scriptura, because there are scripture disproving their Church's traditions as well as disproving how they are not rightly dividing the word of truth from scripture.
Remember how Jesus railed against the Pharisees? I see no care by the Catholic Church to avoid their appearance of evil.
Matthew 23:1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
And that is what the Catholic Church did, prevent believers from going to Jesus to rest in Him for salvation after having believed in the Lord Jesus Christ and God had raised Him from the dead. The Pope & those that rule do not enter into that rest & neither do their followers and they will not lift one burden off of them nor themselves as those heavy burdens for salvation will never end.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
It means Catholics must persevere in charity. Salvation is not a free ticket. This part addresses Catholics, not non-Catholics. "'in body' not 'in heart" addresses luke warm Catholics who are Catholic by ethnicity or inertia and not by practice. You have plenty of those too.
You can make Revelation say anything you want because you refuse to read it with a Jewish perspective, which is why I avoid discussing Rev. with anti-Catholics.
We accept the material sufficiency of scripture, but not the sole sufficiency of scripture. The Trinity can be proven from Scripture, indeed (material sufficiency), but Scripture Alone as a principle was not formally sufficient to prevent the Arian crisis from occurring. In other words, the decisive factor in these controversies was the appeal to apostolic succession and Tradition, which showed that the Church had always been trinitarian. The Arians could not appeal to any such tradition because their christology was a heretical innovation of the 4th century.
The Arians thus appealed to Scripture Alone. And that is the point Catholics make about this. The Arian formal principle was deficient, so that they could appeal to the Bible Alone and come up with Arianism (just like Jehovah's Witnesses do today). If they had held also to an authoritative Sacred Tradition, this could not have happened because the "tradition of Arianism" was
non-existent.
We claim that apostolic Tradition is necessary along with Sacred Scripture. This was the patristic principle, and how they invariably fought the heretics. The biblical arguments provided the "meat" of their arguments, but in the end they would appeal to the Tradition of "what had always been believed everywhere by everyone"
Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/sola-scriptura/material-vs-formal-sufficiency-of-scripture-by-mark-shea/
That is a lie, a straw man fallacy. Again, there are no Sacred Traditions that contradict or are out of harmony with Sacred Scripture. They both come from the same divine wellspring. You have invented a false dichotomy, and mock it out of ignorance.
Because you are an anti-Catholic, all you can see is evil and blind to the good the Church does in the world.
The Seat of Moses is not in the OT, it's a Jewish tradition, and you seem to unbiblically despise all tradition.
Jesus acknowledges the authority of the Jews even though they are hypocrites. The only authority you acknowledge is your personal opinions which is what sola scriptura leads to, with the attached divisions.
The "call no man father" mantra proves you read into scripture what isn't there. We don't elevate priests and bishops to the level of God so the accusation (which never stops with fundamentalists) is stupid and absurd.
Matt. 23:9 – Jesus says, “call no man father.” But you use this verse in an attempt to prove that it is wrong for Catholics to call priests “father.” This is an example of “eisegesis” (imposing one’s views upon a passage) as opposed to “exegesis” (drawing out the meaning of the passage from its context). In this verse, Jesus was discouraging His followers from elevating the scribes and Pharisees to the titles of “fathers” and “rabbis” because they were hypocrites. Jesus warns us not to elevate anyone to the level of our heavenly Father. Catholics don't do this. You are bearing false witness.
Matt. 23:8 – in this teaching, Jesus also says not to call anyone teacher or rabbi as well. But don’t Protestants call their teachers “teacher?” What about this commandment of Jesus? When Protestants say “call no man father,” they must also argue that we cannot call any man teacher either. "Doctor" means "teacher", so by your standards, it's wrong to call your doctor "doctor". It's a whole new level of stupid.
Judges 17:10; 18:19 – priesthood and fatherhood have always been identified together. Fatherhood literally means “communicating one’s nature,” and just as biological fathers communicate their nature to their children, so do spiritual fathers communicate the nature of God to us, their children, through (hopefully) teaching and example.
Eph. 3:14-15 – every family in heaven and on earth is named from the “Father.” We are fathers in the Father.
Acts 7:2; 22:1,1 John 2:13 – elders of the Church are called “fathers.” Therefore, we should ask the question, “Why don’t Protestants call their pastors “father?” https://www.scripturecatholic.com/priesthood-fathers-celibacy-womens-ordination/(because they are not so "biblical")
Your anti-Catholic rhetoric has no biblical or historical basis, they are man made traditions.
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Marymog
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Hi Christ4Me,
This is the statement YOU made: When a church refuses correction by the scripture and refuses to depart from iniquity, leave the church.
That statement by YOU strongly implies that YOU know when a church is wrong about Scripture and is being inequitable and that YOU would leave that church because YOU KNOW they are wrong.
All I am asking you to do is back up or give an articulate answer to your statement. Can you?
Curious Mary
PS: bizarre how you jumped from that statement to "evil Popes"....I don't get it. Are you anti-Catholic?
Marymog
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Hi Christ4Me,
It should concern you that the very first sentence on the "Evil Behavior" link is a complete lie. The men that you follow are lying to you. Does that concern you?
All I ask you is that you read from an unbiased-HISTORY website instead of reading from websites that have a bias. Is that to much to ask?
Scripture below testify to God's gift as free to me.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 6 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Isn't this a Catholic site? They acknowledge the bad Popes but explained it away in defense of the Catholic Church.
What about the bad Popes?
Scripture below testify to God's gift as free to me.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 6 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So what does you Catholic Catechism says? Quoting it below:
"Who belongs to the Catholic Church?
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God.... and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God's grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321"
How you read this portion of the Catholic Catechism?
By the way, non-Catholic Christian denominational churches have gone astray also which is why I see Jesus warning every believer and every church to be ready or else before He comes as the Bridegroom.
Marymog
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Ok....let's try this again! Those passages you provided have NOTHING to do with how YOU KNOW when a denomination is wrong about Scripture and (your new addition) how they "have gone astray".
This is the statement YOU made: When a church refuses correction by the scripture and refuses to depart from iniquity, leave the church.
That statement by YOU strongly implies that YOU know when a church is wrong about Scripture and is being inequitable and that YOU would leave that church because YOU KNOW they are wrong.
All I am asking you to do is back your statement up with facts or give an articulate answer to your statement. Can you?
Curious Mary
Marymog
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Yes, that is a "Catholic site". As they explained on that radio show, of which I'm pretty sure you didn't listen to, a "bad Pope (person)" does NOT invalidate the doctrine of The Church.
Triumph1300
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Triumph1300
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Triumph1300
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Behold
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"Ye shall know them by their denomination"........so sayeth the Devil.
"Hey mister, are you a CHRISTIAN">?????..>"Yes, im a catholic, baptist, methodist, Lutheran, Calvanish, Assembly of God, Pentecostal, ........_________"
"no sir.......i asked you if you are a CHRISTIAN".
"You failed the test."
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