When to look for the rapture of the church

[farouk]

The word rapture really goes with the church; it's not in relation to Israel.

 

[n2thelight]

1 Thess. 4; John 14.

John 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me."

Jesus is telling us that He doesn't want us to worry. As we go through this fourteenth chapter, we will return to this verse several times. If you love the Lord Jesus Christ, and you believe on Him, then you don't have anything to worry about. Now He is going to tell us why.

John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

Have you ever heard Christians say before, "I have a mansion in the sky"? Friend, that is not what "mansions" is talking about here, however it is even more beautiful then those thoughts of a large house in the sky. Let's take the word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.

What is the subject of this chapter,? "Don't worry." Jesus is telling you don't worry at any time if you believe.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.

It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.

After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.

This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."

This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.

Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.

Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed." I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.

To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".

Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.

Why?

Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.

 

[Taken]

So, your admittedly vague post -that way because it had nothing to do with me - was still in no way an attempt to tell me to butt out? If it wasn’t to me or for me, why on earth did you take the time to reply to me at all? You could have simply ignored me and it would have been done!

Look, something transpired between me and another. A third jumped in, and had nothing to do with them. Then you, a forth, jumped in, and had nothing to do with you.
I had no desire to string out a gossip fest, explaining, distracting, for several pages, with several people that had nothing to do with them.

If you had felt better to be TOLD...BUTT OUT, whatever, that's you. I found it appropriate to simply say, it had nothing to do with you.

And so, here we are, several posts back and forth, distracting from the OP, with nonsense.

I'm moving on, hope you do as well.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea.

You say "rapture theory".
You say "unproven idea".

I say the Word of God.
What IS and What SHALL be.

1 Thes 5:

[12] That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Honestly is speaking what IS and SHALL be.
(Not speaking Gods Word is THEORY, and not satisfactory, because not YET PROVED, via, manifestation, while clearly revealed it is FUTURE, and SHALL BE.)

[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Don't BE IGNORANT. Those IN Christ Jesus, bodily Dead or still Living (Dead IN Christ), SHALL BE "caught up" (RAPTURED), redeemed UP to the Lord Jesus.

[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The CAVEAT; The Qualifier of WHO this APPLIES to:....any man who accomplished the "IF"...

[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The Lords Word...not your theory.

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord WHO IS IN HEAVEN...
SHALL descend FROM Heaven.

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Caught Up...(Rapture meaning)...
Dead Men IN Christ, Alive Men IN Christ....
meeting the Lord, IN the Clouds.

[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Your words? No. The Lords WORDS.

As we study our Father's Word;

You have to FIRST acknowledge the difference between HIS Word and "your words".

set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture,

Learn the Facts...Rapture means "caught up".

Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it,

What an INSANE proposition!

look at what Paul really said

Paul is not the one MUDDYING the Truth.

You begin this post, with YOUR THEORY.
Your THEORY is ...
A man believing he will be "caught up" to the Lord...
IS worried
IS believing he is going to a prepared mansion in the sky

What a LOAD of boloney!

What is revealed; is
The Lord descends from heaven to the Air.
The Lord (redeems) His Church.
How the Lord (redeems) His Church, is by "catching His Church UP" to Him in the air.
Who the Lords Church IS, is those bodily dead or alive, already Converted "IN" Christ.
The "Catching Up" of His Church is simply called "the Rapture", which means "catching up".
It is TO the Clouds, Christ's Church IS "caught up".

Do not be Ignorant...
Clouds and Air ARE above the Earth.
Clouds and Air ARE NOT Gods Heavenly Throne.
Clouds and Air and not prepared Mansions.

Clouds and Air are a TEMPORARY refuge FOR the "SAVED" and "FAITHFUL" unto God....
BECAUSE:
THEY ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.
THEY ARE Lifted UP;
BECAUSE WRATH, "SHALL" commence;
"UPON" the Earth.

Do not be Ignorant...
Noah was "faithful" and "saved" unto God...
Noah was "LIFT UP" above the earth.
Noah being "LIFT UP" above the earth was a TEMPORARY refuge...
BECAUSE he WAS NOT appointed to suffer the WRATH, that WAS appointed UPON the Earth.

Do not be Ignorant...
"As in the days of Noe, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man".

It is astounding, that men such as yourself, who DENY the Lords "catching up" to Him in the air/clouds, above the face of the earth...

BASE your denial on "theories" YOU make up, and then "CLAIM" "your theories" are the What Rapture believers Believe.
No they do not.

The Rapture is about, men Converted in Christ Jesus, Meeting their Lord, IN the Air/Clouds, above the Earth... Period.

It has nothing to do with worry, mansions
In the sky, in heaven, men Becoming Converted or the Lord returning to Earth.

The Lords Word is TRUE, whether or not it has come to pass... as you dally in "theories" and "unproven theories"...others are trusting the Lords word is True, and comforted by the Lords words of what shall be.

Glory to God,
Yea Lord, patiently waiting in peace and comfort, for Your descent to the Clouds and catching me UP to You Lord. Amen!

Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

The word rapture really goes with the church; it's not in relation to Israel.

well, we say this, but the word rapture is not hard to find I guess, and anyone who may can relate it to the context they find it in, Bible Search: Rapture OT, Bible Search: Rapture NT, so, you might develop your arg from here

 

[Trekson]

Not according to many respectable translations and according to the Greek behind it.

"has come" in.... NASB, NKJV, Greens Literal Translation, CJB, ESV, NIV, and in Young's Literal translation it says "come did", also past tense. Dr. Andy Woods in a article I read recently did a side bar on this and he also stated that the aorist tense of the Greek is used which is a "already happened" implication. Seems Young's Literal Translation did exactly that with the text. And Robert Young is the compiler of the well known Young's Analytical Concordance which is similar to Strong's and equally respected. Dr. Kenneth Wuest, a very well known prominent Greek Scholar (died in 1961) also goes into detail regarding this in his multi volume NT word study. And in his NT translation has it as "has come".

We have to be fair here. "is" or "was" is not a literal word translated from the Greek. The nuance of the Greek tense has to be looked at. And according to many, many Greek scholars, the Greek erchomai is in the aorist tense which is a "already happened" sort of implication.

Even disregarding that debate, as I stated earlier, one cannot build a doctrinal position that the wrath does not come till Seal 6 because it is not mentioned earlier. Wrath is never mentioned in Genesis regarding the flood of Noah's time, yet it is very clear that the wrath of God was on display. And since all power and authority had been given Yeshua clear back in Matthew 28, and it is by His hand that the seals are opened and the events contained in them are released, the assertion that all of the seals are the wrath of the Lamb is valid. Even though it may not fit some folk's agenda.

I respectfully disagree, it can also be considered that the wrath of the Lamb is what is written inside the scroll and can not be fully revealed until the 7th and final seal is opened and what happens right after that? The wrath of the Lamb with the trumpet judgments. Do you not think the martyr's under the altar know what's going on? They realize Jesus's wrath has not yet begun. The phrase "is come" is used in five other places and they all certainly can't have a past tense. Rev. 11:18, 12:10,12, 14:15 and 19:7. They all speak of events that are about to happen, not things that have been happening for a while. I checked out several of the verse that used "has" come and in none of them do I get a sense of past or that it has been happening for a while. I sense a present tense based on the 6th seal, like...now that we have seen this sign, the time "has" come for the wrath of the Lamb to begin.

 

[Copperhead]

it can also be considered that the wrath of the Lamb is what is written inside the scroll and can not be fully revealed until the 7th and final seal is opened and what happens right after that?

It could be considered that if the text let us know that. Else it is just assumption on our parts. But as I have stated, there is substantive support in scripture that what is going on from seal one onward is the wrath. And there is tons of support in scripture, even the OT, that the redeemed are with Him when these things happen. So the redeemed group we know as the "church" is not enduring these events. King David makes mention of it as does Isaiah, Jeremiah, Joel, etc. Though the actual concept of the "ekklessia" or "church" was not known to them, the righteous being gathered and hidden from the Day of the Lord in His tabernacle/Pavilion/chamber most certainly was.

And the seals encompass many of the events of Matthew 24. And that chapter, as well as 25, was clearly written for Hebrews, not the church. If my memory is correct, it was John Langton who put the chapter and verse divisions in the NT. He goofed on Matthew 24. The discourse starts at Matthew 23:37. The audience Yeshua had in mind was the Hebrew people. He had been going around telling them "the kingdom is at hand" , but that offer to establish that kingdom on earth and be their King is being rescinded in Matthew 23 because of their rejection. His Father's house is now their house and it is now left to them desolate. Matthew 24-25 are the consequences of that rejection.

And the seals encompass that period. It is clearly the Wrath of the Lamb in view for its entirety. After all, that is the main purpose of the Tribulation period... to drive the Hebrew people to the wall and cause them to realize their offense of rejecting Yeshua, then repent and turn to Him, and call for His return. He made that assertion in Matthew 23:39 and that was a comment on Hosea 5:15, where He stated He would return to His place until Jacob/Israel acknowledges their offense. Hosea 6 following that expands it further. And Yeshua will not return to earth until this repentance of the collective Hebrew people thru their leadership happens. The Hebrews are the elect He refers to in Matthew 24, and is a reference to Isaiah 45. And Matthew 25, Yeshua expands on that with the sheep and goat judgement which is a discourse on Joel 3, which talks about the nations being gathered and judged on how they treated the Hebrew people.

It is looking thru the lens of these things that I am convinced the wrath of the Lamb starts at seal one. Along with Him stating that all authority had been given to Him by the Father. It is Yeshua who made the earth and universe, and it was for Him that He made them (per John 1 and the 24 Elders in Revelation 4:11).

I fully realize much of this is controversial and counters many entrenched eschatological assumptions. But the concept is sound from an exegetical standpoint. And it is not some new recent concept.

One has to compare the entirety of scripture with what Revelation is saying. Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 references to other scripture.

 

[CoreIssue]

Ummm there are SEVEN "heads". So if one of them is "Alexander", then who are the other six?!?

-- And it ain't "Alexander", -- he's dead, or so I've been told! ;)

So many "theories", so little basis (Scriptural OR Historical). Perhaps it in our nature to behave like the five "wise men" and the elephant, but at the same time, how can people screw up something that's so clearly defined by Scripture and substantiated by History??? The nonsense defies reality. -- Take for example "the E.U.". Are there REALLY "ten" nations? Come on. Who in their right mind can defend such a premise?
​

CI, you seem to be a fairly intelligent guy, but your church doctrines have skewed your ability to think independently.

With Best Regards,
BJ

​

The heads are the empires statue of mystery Babylon.

The heads wear crowns, which were the major kings of each Empire. One being Alexander the great.



Per John one is, being Rome and five were: Babylon, Medo Persia being two and Greece, totaling six with one yet to come, making seven. The one yet to come would be the second leg, making seven.

It says AC will rise out of the five that were.

We are also told the AC will rise out of the 10 toes.

The Roman empire collapsed into 10 nations and over time the area of these nations became the nations that became the EU.

 

[CoreIssue]

You are putting a condition upon God, which I don't think wise, or biblical.
Could the restrainer be the Holy Spirit? Of course. It might even be the most likely choice. But the HS is NOT the only option. In Rev 20 an angel binds Satan. Does anyone think this angel does this under his own authority or power? Of course not. He does it because he acts with God's power and authority; something Satan, and the AC, is powerless against.
So when it comes to who the restrainer "has to be"...the bible does say. That makes it wrong for us to say. We are thus putting authority upon our GUESS that should only be on God's word.

While I don't disagree that Daniel or Revelation speaks about this 'man of sin'...or 'beast', like I said before, the passages that do, clearly, discuss him, do not give us any more information about who he is currently being restrained by, or, as you say, his identity. Therefore, I'm not quite sure of your point in relation to the topic, sorry.

I'm not putting any condition on the Holy Spirit. I'm just simply saying who else could it be?

Yes, an angel binds Satan. He restrains Satan by putting him in chains. Takes him totally out of the picture.

Lawlessness is not chained today. It is restricted. To restrict requires omnipresence since lawlessness is in the whole world. It is not a person.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The AC and Satan are lawless but not lawlessness itself.

For the AC to be revealed lawlessness has to be unrestrained.

I see the seven most powerful angels active in revelation during the tribulation period. So none of them can be the restrainer since the restrainer has to be removed for the AC to function.

So I repeat, who else could it be?

 

[Bobby Jo]

The heads are the empires statue of mystery Babylon. ...

Your statement is correct, but your interpretation is incorrect:

1. Gold, Babylonia -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc., -- with 10 horns*

9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven
* Permanent Membership on the Security Council

1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China​

NOMINATED for Permanent Membership on the Security Council **

6. Germany – economic power
7. Japan – economic power
8. Brazil – regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria – regional representative for Africa
10. India – regional representative for the Near East​

** “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46​

Perhaps if you correctly interpreted the FIVE empires as defined in Dan. 2:45, you'd be a little closer to the TRUTH. And if I might continue, you could also consider how 7:11-12 depicts the destruction of the U.N., and the continuance of the Three Superpowers until they're converted into the Millennial Kingdom governance model:

Dan. 7:11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.​

And so BOTH Scripture and History agree. But they can't override someone's imagination! :)


Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

...

So where I asked you to identify the other "six heads", given your insistence that "Alexander" was one of the "heads", -- you didn't provide an answer. PLEASE provide an answer.

And if you have a challenge to what I've presented, then please feel free to query any aspects which you might think contradicts either Scripture or History, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN ANSWER.


Fair enough?!?
Bobby Jo

 

[CoreIssue]

Your statement is correct, but your interpretation is incorrect:

1. Gold, Babylonia -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc., -- with 10 horns*

9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven
* Permanent Membership on the Security Council

1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China​

NOMINATED for Permanent Membership on the Security Council **

6. Germany – economic power
7. Japan – economic power
8. Brazil – regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria – regional representative for Africa
10. India – regional representative for the Near East​

** “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46​

Perhaps if you correctly interpreted the FIVE empires as defined in Dan. 2:45, you'd be a little closer to the TRUTH. And if I might continue, you could also consider how 7:11-12 depicts the destruction of the U.N., and the continuance of the Three Superpowers until they're converted into the Millennial Kingdom governance model:

7:11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.​

And so BOTH Scripture and History agree. But they can't override someone's imagination! :)


Bobby Jo

Medo Persia was two nations with two kings functioning together.

The US and UK did not exist then or are even mentioned in Daniel or revelation.

The great stone Jesus, not the millennial kingdom. In the New Testament Jesus is called Petra, a great stone. During the Tribulation Period in the second half the 144,000 flee to the ancient city of Petra, the Rose stone city carved into solid rock.

The new Jerusalem is on the new earth in eternity, not in heaven. No one lives there yet.

Alexander the great was known as the leopard even in the his day.

Prophetically Germany will be an ally of Russia when they invade the Middle East.

The one described as dreadful end of iron is the Roman Empire.

The UN is a joke and irrelevant.

From my reading prophecy the US is the islands to the west that stop the advance of the AC at mid trib when he turns and invades Israel.

The AC EU tangles with Russia, Germany and Iran and they are soundly defeated.

Daniel seven is talking about the second coming.

 

[CoreIssue]

So where I asked you to identify the other "six heads", given your insistence that "Alexander" was one of the "heads", -- you didn't provide an answer. PLEASE provide an answer.

And if you have a challenge to what I've presented, then please feel free to query any aspects which you might think contradicts either Scripture or History, and I WILL GIVE YOU AN ANSWER.


Fair enough?!?
Bobby Jo

I did answer. The head Greece and the king Alexander. Fully in keeping with the seven heads as described in Revelation, the belly of the statute in Daniel and the third beast of Daniel.

The countries you're talking about are not any of the five that were from which the AC will come.

 

[Trekson]

It could be considered that if the text let us know that. (which I think Rev. 6:10 & 17 do just that.) Else it is just assumption on our parts. But as I have stated, there is substantive support in scripture that what is going on from seal one onward is the wrath. And there is tons of support in scripture, even the OT, that the redeemed are with Him when these things happen. So the redeemed group we know as the "church" is not enduring these events. King David makes mention of it as does Isaiah, Jeremiah, Joel, etc. Though the actual concept of the "ekklessia" or "church" was not known to them, the righteous being gathered and hidden from the Day of the Lord in His tabernacle/Pavilion/chamber most certainly was.
I agree that the church will not suffer God's wrath but if the seals are not the wrath of the Lamb as I believe, then we are still here just experiencing the result of man's folly as we have done in many times and places since the church began. If the seals are the wrath, your point is valid, if they are not than it is not.

And the seals encompass many of the events of Matthew 24. And that chapter, as well as 25, was clearly written for Hebrews, not the church. Seeing as Jesus mentions the church back in Matt. 10, I think it an assumption to believe that he is only speaking of the Hebrews in cp. 24 and 25. I believe he is speaking to his disciples as the early church founders. If my memory is correct, it was John Langton who put the chapter and verse divisions in the NT. He goofed on Matthew 24. The discourse starts at Matthew 23:37. That is your opinion but again I disagree. The separation is in the words. It is clear that the context of Matt. 23:37 ends at the end of the chapter. Chapter 24 opens with Jesus leaving the temple where he gave his previous discourse and moves on to the mount of Olives. He speaks because he is answering the disciples questions, not because he is continuing a previous oration. The audience Yeshua had in mind was the Hebrew people. He had been going around telling them "the kingdom is at hand" , but that offer to establish that kingdom on earth and be their King is being rescinded in Matthew 23 because of their rejection. His Father's house is now their house and it is now left to them desolate. Matthew 24-25 are the consequences of that rejection. Respectfully, your conclusions don't make sense regarding the context. Jesus speaks of false Christs and to be wary of them, the Hebrews have already decided he is a false Christ, so through vs. 14, he is speaking to the church. Vss. 15 - 20 is a continuation of his speaking to the church but this time he is speaking, imo, to the 144,000, who are chosen because they acccept Jesus as Messiah but they have a different destiny. The elect are the church at this point (see 1 Peter 1:2). Why would Jesus call them the elect right after leaving "their house desolate"? Remember, the elect are not Hebrew by birth but by faith in God following Abraham's example, Rom. 4.

And the seals encompass that period. It is clearly the Wrath of the Lamb in view for its entirety. I believe the first four seals correspond with vss. Matt. 24:5-8, but they are not called the wrath of the Lamb, they are called birth pangs. The 5th seal is reflected in vss. 9-14. Regarding vs. 14, who else is spreading the gospel around the world per the mandate at the end of Matt. 28 which is a task given solely to the church?! Please don't tell me that this is for the 144,000 because the bible never says they do anything so considering them "missionaries" is really a major assumption. Most likely their destiny and identity are found in Rev. 12:14. After all, that is the main purpose of the Tribulation period... to drive the Hebrew people to the wall and cause them to realize their offense of rejecting Yeshua, then repent and turn to Him, and call for His return. First, there is no such thing as a tribulation "period", there is only the great trib which is Satan's wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17. He made that assertion in Matthew 23:39 and that was a comment on Hosea 5:15, where He stated He would return to His place until Jacob/Israel acknowledges their offense. Hosea 6 following that expands it further. And Yeshua will not return to earth until this repentance of the collective Hebrew people thru their leadership happens. The Hebrews are the elect He refers to in Matthew 24, and is a reference to Isaiah 45. And Matthew 25, Yeshua expands on that with the sheep and goat judgement which is a discourse on Joel 3, which talks about the nations being gathered and judged on how they treated the Hebrew people. I'm beginning to sense a pattern here that seems to be typical (sorry, no offense meant) of messianics. They tend to think it's all about the Jews but it's not and as such their interpretation of scripture is quite biased based on that fallacy. I'm not a believer of the typical dispensational way of interpreting scripture. If this is true than I expect that you take Rom. 11:26 too literally, like many do. I believe it will be true for only those left alive after the wraths and judgments, so only those who are left alive to enter the millennial kingdom as living humans are the "all" that will be saved. Towards the end of the 70th week, the vast majority of Hebrews, will unfortunately, succumb to the lies of the a/c and accept him as their long awaited Messah. The result of Daniel's 70th week are seen in that fact but the majority of the things happening are all over the world not just in Israel! Regarding Matt. 25, sorry, again it's not about the Hebrews but about how people were treating the church during the time of the great trib. Both Gentiles and Hebrews alike will either be goats or sheep. The majority of "saved" Hebrews will have been in hiding for 3 1/2 yrs. When God says he is not a respecter of persons and there is no longer any Jew or Greek, we should take Him at his word!

It is looking thru the lens ( a biased lens, imo ) of these things that I am convinced the wrath of the Lamb starts at seal one. Along with Him stating that all authority had been given to Him by the Father. It is Yeshua (as part of the Trinity, he is not the Father) who made the earth and universe, and it was for Him that He made them (per John 1 and the 24 Elders in Revelation 4:11).

I fully realize much of this is controversial and counters many entrenched eschatological assumptions. But the concept is sound from an exegetical standpoint. And it is not some new recent concept. New, is a relative term but only strict dispensationalists and Messianics tend to take this approach to interpreting prophecy.

One has to compare the entirety of scripture with what Revelation is saying. I agree, we just arrive at different conclusions. Revelation is 404 verses with over 800 references to other scripture.

 

[historyb]

Well okay as a fellow Christian,show me

Show you what, that I don't believe your doctrines?

 

[Jay Ross]

Your statement is correct, but your interpretation is incorrect:

1. Gold, Babylonia -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc., -- with 10 horns*

9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven
* Permanent Membership on the Security Council

1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China​

NOMINATED for Permanent Membership on the Security Council **

6. Germany – economic power
7. Japan – economic power
8. Brazil – regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria – regional representative for Africa
10. India – regional representative for the Near East​

** “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46​

Perhaps if you correctly interpreted the FIVE empires as defined in Dan. 2:45, you'd be a little closer to the TRUTH. And if I might continue, you could also consider how 7:11-12 depicts the destruction of the U.N., and the continuance of the Three Superpowers until they're converted into the Millennial Kingdom governance model:

Dan. 7:11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.​

And so BOTH Scripture and History agree. But they can't override someone's imagination! :)


Bobby Jo

I would challenge you but, you will not believe me if I told you.

Your understanding of who or what the beasts are IMHO flawed. You may be able to identify the manifestations that rise up out of the sea, but the manifestations are just that manifestations of the beasts.

At this point in time we are awaiting the judgement in heaven of the five beasts described in Dan 7:1-12 with the judgement occurring around 25 or so years into our near future. The manifestations of the beasts are not the beasts. The age of the respective beasts exceeds the duration of any of the manifestations of the beasts that you have mentioned or listed.

After the judgement of the beasts and the kings of the earth and their armies, they will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 years. When the 1,000 years are up, the bottomless pit will be unlocked and the scorpions and the beasts rise up out of the Bottomless pit during the little while period before the final judgement.

But you are an American
and from what I have observed so far from your posts,
you believe that you know all that there is to know about the end times.

Have a good day now, won't you?

 

[Copperhead]

Trekson, it would be best if you did not embed your comments within mine as that makes it so I cannot easily take individual comments and respond to them. But I will do a cut and paste of one you stated....

Seeing as Jesus mentions the church back in Matt. 10, I think it an assumption to believe that he is only speaking of the Hebrews in cp. 24 and 25.

It really is simple. One has to keep in mind that the chapter and verse distinctions in scripture came over 1000 years after the texts were written. The audience context of Matthew 24-25 is shown in Matthew 23:37-39.

Throughout Yeshua's ministry, He stated that the kingdom was near. He had been holding out His hand offering to set up the kingdom here on earth and rule as the King all throughout His ministry to them. In Matthew 23:37-39, this comes to a head. He states how He longed to gather them together and rule, but they would not have any part of that. They rejected Him. And He states that they will not see Him again until they repent of that rejection (Hosea 5:15) and now the offer of the kingdom is being rescinded. His Father's house (the Temple) is now their house, and it is left to them desolate. They rejected Him and now they have to face the consequences of that rejection.

What follows is Matthew 24-25. It is a discourse on what is their future and fate for having rejected Him. It is a continuation of the theme of Matthew 23:37-39.

 

[n2thelight]

You say "rapture theory".
You say "unproven idea".

I say the Word of God.
What IS and What SHALL be.

1 Thes 5:

[12] That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Honestly is speaking what IS and SHALL be.
(Not speaking Gods Word is THEORY, and not satisfactory, because not YET PROVED, via, manifestation, while clearly revealed it is FUTURE, and SHALL BE.)

[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

Don't BE IGNORANT. Those IN Christ Jesus, bodily Dead or still Living (Dead IN Christ), SHALL BE "caught up" (RAPTURED), redeemed UP to the Lord Jesus.

[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The CAVEAT; The Qualifier of WHO this APPLIES to:....any man who accomplished the "IF"...

[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The Lords Word...not your theory.

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The Lord WHO IS IN HEAVEN...
SHALL descend FROM Heaven.

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Caught Up...(Rapture meaning)...
Dead Men IN Christ, Alive Men IN Christ....
meeting the Lord, IN the Clouds.

[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Your words? No. The Lords WORDS.



You have to FIRST acknowledge the difference between HIS Word and "your words".



Learn the Facts...Rapture means "caught up".



What an INSANE proposition!



Paul is not the one MUDDYING the Truth.

You begin this post, with YOUR THEORY.
Your THEORY is ...
A man believing he will be "caught up" to the Lord...
IS worried
IS believing he is going to a prepared mansion in the sky

What a LOAD of boloney!

What is revealed; is
The Lord descends from heaven to the Air.
The Lord (redeems) His Church.
How the Lord (redeems) His Church, is by "catching His Church UP" to Him in the air.
Who the Lords Church IS, is those bodily dead or alive, already Converted "IN" Christ.
The "Catching Up" of His Church is simply called "the Rapture", which means "catching up".
It is TO the Clouds, Christ's Church IS "caught up".

Do not be Ignorant...
Clouds and Air ARE above the Earth.
Clouds and Air ARE NOT Gods Heavenly Throne.
Clouds and Air and not prepared Mansions.

Clouds and Air are a TEMPORARY refuge FOR the "SAVED" and "FAITHFUL" unto God....
BECAUSE:
THEY ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH.
THEY ARE Lifted UP;
BECAUSE WRATH, "SHALL" commence;
"UPON" the Earth.

Do not be Ignorant...
Noah was "faithful" and "saved" unto God...
Noah was "LIFT UP" above the earth.
Noah being "LIFT UP" above the earth was a TEMPORARY refuge...
BECAUSE he WAS NOT appointed to suffer the WRATH, that WAS appointed UPON the Earth.

Do not be Ignorant...
"As in the days of Noe, so shall be the coming of the Son of Man".

It is astounding, that men such as yourself, who DENY the Lords "catching up" to Him in the air/clouds, above the face of the earth...

BASE your denial on "theories" YOU make up, and then "CLAIM" "your theories" are the What Rapture believers Believe.
No they do not.

The Rapture is about, men Converted in Christ Jesus, Meeting their Lord, IN the Air/Clouds, above the Earth... Period.

It has nothing to do with worry, mansions
In the sky, in heaven, men Becoming Converted or the Lord returning to Earth.

The Lords Word is TRUE, whether or not it has come to pass... as you dally in "theories" and "unproven theories"...others are trusting the Lords word is True, and comforted by the Lords words of what shall be.

Glory to God,
Yea Lord, patiently waiting in peace and comfort, for Your descent to the Clouds and catching me UP to You Lord. Amen!

Taken

Okay

Yet you ignore the below

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

When?After what?

Do what you do.......

 

[n2thelight]

Show you what, that I don't believe your doctrines?

Come on now,you should be better than that!!!!

 

[n2thelight]

I'm not putting any condition on the Holy Spirit. I'm just simply saying who else could it be?

Yes, an angel binds Satan. He restrains Satan by putting him in chains. Takes him totally out of the picture.

Lawlessness is not chained today. It is restricted. To restrict requires omnipresence since lawlessness is in the whole world. It is not a person.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The AC and Satan are lawless but not lawlessness itself.

For the AC to be revealed lawlessness has to be unrestrained.

I see the seven most powerful angels active in revelation during the tribulation period. So none of them can be the restrainer since the restrainer has to be removed for the AC to function.

So I repeat, who else could it be?

Holy Spirit you say is taken out of the way,where does He go?