Naomi25
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- Aug 10, 2016
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I can not say what "dispensationalists" believe or "quote".
I am not big on "name tags".
John 14
IS Jesus revealing TO (men who have been following Him and Believing) SHALL EXPECT.
1) Jesus is Bodily Leaving the Earth.
2) They Bodily can not go WITH Him.
3) AFTER Jesus Bodily Leaves....
4) The Holy Spirit WILL be WITH Them.
5) Men LISTENING, were Still in Confusion of the Understanding.
6) Jesus continued speaking;
Although Jesus will Bodily leave, no more SEEN, by the men.....He WILL Come to them IN SPIRIT, and forever BE WITH THEM.
Jesus did continue speaking, but he does not promise to come IN THE SPIRIT, he promises he will come again.
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:3
That is a physical, tangible promise. He is not speaking, in this section, about the promise of the Holy Spirit...which, may I add, he does NOT reference as his own spirit, but talks of as it's own, separate person, which the Spirit is.
In essence:
Jesus TAUGHT Baptism of the Holy Spirit,
(Which IS a mans "natural spirit" (of a mans seed), becoming BORN AGAIN, (of Gods Seed).
Jesus, as a man, DID NOT BAPTIZE men with the INDWELLING SPIRIT.
Christ IS the Power/Spirit of God.
1 Cor 1:24
Jesus is the Seed of God, is the Word of God.
John 1:1
Luke 8:11
Christ IS the Seed of God
Gal 3:16
Yes, Jesus is the Word of God. But his is not the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, -John 14:16
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. -John 14:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. -John 15:26
Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. -John 16:7
All of these verses make it clear that Jesus is talking about another person, a 'he', who comes only after Jesus has left, and he will magnify Jesus in our lives. This is another person, not Jesus. Unless Jesus has a personality disorder.
After Jesus, the man, BODILY left the Earth...
The Spirit of God...Christ...Baptized THEM, with the Spirit of God.
Which IS the Point at Which "their" natural spirits, BECAME, BORN AGAIN with Gods SEED.
That is revealed;
Acts 2: 1,2,3,4
John 14 reveals;
The Holy Spirit is Gods Truth, is a Comforter,
Is the Spirit, the Father, the Son, within a man.
1 John 3:9
Reveals a man born of God, sins no more.
Such a man, By the Power of God within Him, shall never again, Be Against God.
I disagree. I don't see any of that in those verses. At all. Well, the part about 'the spirit' being Christ, that is.
Let me ask you a question. We know when Christ was raised from the dead that he had a new, spiritual body...that which we hope to attain on our own resurrections. The firstfruits. It had certain "far out" aspects to it...teleportation appearing to be one of them! But, it was undoubtably a physical body. So, my question is this: where in scripture does it give us leave to think that Christ has 'done away with' that body? Because there seems to be a correlation between him having that body and being present on earth, and the "helper" being sent. You seem to assume that as soon as Christ ascends back to heaven then 'wham, bam' everything changes and now he can head on back down to earth and be 'in' his followers because all he needed was a breath of heaven air, or something. That was all he meant when he said that the Spirit couldn't come until he left.
No...there is an interplay between the Trinity memebers here...there has been all along. Christ remains in physical form, a true intecesor who understands his bride. And the Holy Spirit, the promised helper, resonates within every believer, pointing to the work of Christ, pulling us closer to him.
[QUOTE[And since, by definition, Jesus will have left heaven and come to earth for us,
No.
Consider the teaching and understanding.
God IS HOLY....Men and the Earth is Corrupt.
God DOES NOT "expose" Himself to Corruption.
God IS TOO HOLY, to be "IN the Presence OF SIN"
Jesus came to EARTH....HOW?
AS HE IS? No.
Jesus came to EARTH....having taken UPON HIMSELF, a BODY, "corrupt men could see".
Phil 2:7
Jesus "LOOKED LIKE" earthly men, on the outside, yet HIS INSIDE, "truth, life", remained HOLY, void of sin.
As Jesus assended up to the Clouds, HIS BODY WAS GLORIFIED, and Last "SEEN" IN the Clouds.(lower heavens, men Can see).
The same HOW Jesus' Glorifed body left the earth, IS the same How Glorified bodies of men (in Christ) shall leave and GO TO THE CLOUDS.
Jesus shall DESCEND From Heaven TO the Clouds...and CALL HIS CHURCH UP TO HIM, that HIS CHURCH shall MEET HIM in the Clouds. (Not ON the CORRUPT EARTH).
1 Thes 4:17
[/QUOTE]
There's a fair bit of supposition in this paragraph. Jesus "looked like" earthly men? Most theologians would agree that's because he was fully man. Sinful? No, but fully man none the less.
And was Jesus' body glorified in the clouds? Acts doesn't say so. He already had his new body, does any scripture say that there is any extra process needed? He was the firstfruits, we come after...what about for us? For us once we receive our new bodies, that's it. Yes, the bible says that we will recieve them at the time of Rapture, at our Lords return, but it doesn't specifically say it is the clouds that make the process complete. That's just speculation on your part. And as for the Rapture? There is just as much evidence to say that once that event has happened, Christ will continue downwards to claim the Earth and make it all new, as there is to say we go back up. More, I'd say, if we were going to take the verses at face value.
Jesus' "CHURCH", ie the Born Again, shall be IN the Clouds WITH Christ Jesus, ABOVE the face of the Earth, while the pronouncement of the Wrath of God, commences UPON the EARTH. (Beginning of the 7 year Tribulation).
Why?
Because God hath NOT appointed the Born Again TO HIS WRATH.
1 Thes 5:9
Right...wrath. That being the final judgement of the lake of fire. We who are in Christ Jesus are spared the wrath to come, the second death.
DittoDisagree.
Everything has a precise ORDER (WAY) according to God. Jesus' second coming, clearly has A Decent to the Clouds, Before He comes to the earth.
Christ Jesus WILL NOT return "TO" the Earth in HIS GLORY, while the Earth is still Corrupt.
And the Earth is definitely still CORRUPT during the Tribulation.
Jesus IS in the AIR/Clouds, WIth HIS Church, At the ending of the Tribulation.....
Men on earth Against God, are Dead.
Evil spirits are still roaming on Earth.
Michael and the holy spirits, battle in the air, against the evil spirits.
Rev 12:7
The battle ends WITH Jesus' Sword...which IS the Word out of His mouth.
Rev 19:21
God did not appoint His Wrath to those Saved "unto" Him.
Noah was Saved "unto" Him, in a similar fashion, as Noah was RAISED UP to the Face of the Waters, While the Earth was "destroyed" (cleansed), with Water.
Gen 7:18
Like it was in the days of Noah, so also shall it be again.
Luke 17:26
(People are not the only corrupt thing, or the only thing God renews)
Men first knew of being Baptized with Water...
Thereafter, Baptized with Fire, ie the Spirit of God.
So yes friend, it is taught. Gods Wrath is appointed upon the Corrupt. (Earth, Lower Heavens, mankind, and evil spirits) And Not upon what He has restored.
God Bless,
Taken
Well, one would assume that he would have to come through the clouds on his way down, as clouds are usually in between heaven and earth.
And I'd also say it's sort of obvious that the earth is filled with wickedness. That's the reason he's coming back. To judge and to make all things new. As long as he's in heaven, he is giving the wicked time to repent. When he returns, it will be riding a white horse, his word a sword, and no man will stand against him.
But for those "in him", that time will not touch us. We will be 'with' him...'where he is'. Which, apparently, will be here, judging, and making all things new.