When will the "sudden destruction" from which "they will not escape" referenced in 1 Thess 5:2-3 occur and what is the scope of it?

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Timtofly

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LOL. Obviously, it would be after. Would be pretty hard for them to ask the question when they are dead, right? LOL.

But, it will be very shortly after. Why would it say "the great day of his wrath is come" if His wrath was not at hand and about to come down at that point?
Because the final harvest starts at the Second Coming. Satan's 42 months is after the final harvest. The final harvest is from those alive, not those dead for thousands of years.

Jesus and the angels are on the earth during the final harvest.

"The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

The field is not sheol nor the grave. Those people hiding out are the final harvest. Those sheep hiding out are of Israel and will be judged, and some will be goats. The wheat are hiding out and among that group waiting for the wrath to fall on them. This harvest and judgment is after Jesus sets up His glorious throne in Jerusalem. The same throne Satan sits on for 42 months.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats."

This does not say years prior to the Son of man coming. Satan does not build and sit on this glorious throne prior to the Second Coming. All the judgment and harvest happens after the Second Coming, not leading up to the Second Coming.

It is Amil and post trib people who have the easy escapism ideology. They claim it is instantly all over at the Second Coming. The wrath and judgment comes at the Second Coming. That is just the beginning. The destruction is sudden and instant and catches people off guard. But billions will be left in the rubble facing the wrath of God.

According to John in Revelation 6, the only sign is Death and sheol bringing war, famine, plague and death to 25% of the world. A battle against Israel, that Jesus stops at the Second Coming.

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Sound familiar?

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

You all claim these are not the same Day of the Lord. But then deny there have been 7 Days of the Lord since Genesis 1:1.

It is God who calls all these nations to battle, not Satan, and not even Satan allowed by God. No one will even know why they are fighting because it is a "thief in the night" battle, that no one sees coming.

You all need to get out of the ideology that nothing has changed since creation and it will all end at the Second Coming. There was a new heaven and earth after the Flood. There will be a new heaven and earth after God's wrath is poured out. Still the same creation that Jesus has and will rule over until He hands it back to God perfect and subdued. Jesus will not hand over a burnt offering.

Jesus delivered the OT redeemed as the firstfruits at His resurrection.

Jesus will deliver the entire church glorified at the Second Coming.

Jesus will deliver all of creation to God subdued and complete without death at the end of the last Day of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28

The fire in Revelation 20:9 only consumes those who followed Satan, not the entire earth. It is not heaven being dissolved by fire. It is representative of the last of death being defeated that Satan keeps trying to introduce into creation. Those last deceived humans is the end of death. Then Jesus hands back creation, and heaven and earth can no longer be found.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I was going to try one last appeal to your reasonability...but no, you mock me and God by whom I speak, and therefore I will not hear from you, but leave you to your own understanding. So be it.
No, I only mock you and your false full preterist beliefs and holier than thou attitude. I'd never mock God.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I was taught to find the answer to one question at a time, and then put the results together from the Scripture. Attempting to answer several questions at once only creates confusion and misunderstanding.
But, you can't even answer 2 or 3 questions in one post? That doesn't make any sense to me. But, you can respond however you want, of course.

To answer your question on the peace and safety.

Ezekiel 38:8

"After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them."

Ezekiel 38-39 is well known as the explanation of the Battle of Armageddon. This is the "time of Jacobs Trouble" which is the latter half (3 1/2) years of the Tribulation.

When the antichrist gathers his armies to invade Israel, Israel "will dwell safely, all of them."

They dwell safely because of the peace treaty made with the antichrist, as I have shown you.
You're not looking at the context of 1 Thess 5:1-9. It has nothing to do with physical peace and safety because of being in a certain location, but rather has to do with people being in SPIRITUAL darkness and thinking that they are SPIRITUALLY at peace and safe from God's wrath. But, they will find out otherwise.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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"Non of them shall escape" refers to globalists, elitists, sexually immoral, idolators, abusers of mankind, those who destroy the earth and those who take the Mark.

Not everyone dies = this is very clear from scripture = Zechariah ch14
So, why is that not clear in passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 which speak of the scope of destruction that will occur when Christ returns?

"Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles."


There are Two Judgments that are separated by 1,000 Years = easy to SEE in Revelation chapters 19 and 20.
How do you interpret a passage like this then:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
 

Charlie24

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But, you can't even answer 2 or 3 questions in one post? That doesn't make any sense to me. But, you can respond however you want, of course.


You're not looking at the context of 1 Thess 5:1-9. It has nothing to do with physical peace and safety because of being in a certain location, but rather has to do with people being in SPIRITUAL darkness and thinking that they are SPIRITUALLY at peace and safe from God's wrath. But, they will find out otherwise.

Oh, yea! When all else fails go to plan "B" spiritualize everything to get out!
 

David in NJ

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So, why is that not clear in passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 which speak of the scope of destruction that will occur when Christ returns?


How do you interpret a passage like this then:

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Would you agree that:
a.) God never lies
b.) HE speaks to us prophetically, literally, symbolically, allegorically, parables and even poetically
c.) HE gives us specifics in Christ/Salvation such as John ch3
d.) the Holy Spirit is the Author who has spoken thru multiple witnesses = 2 Peter 1:19-21
e.) Prophecy can have more then one level/stage of fulfillment such as Christ having Two Distinct Comings
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Oh, yea! When all else fails go to plan "B" spiritualize everything to get out!
Such a weak response. The fact of the matter is that both Premils and Amils see some of the text as being literal and some as being figurative or spiritual. I do NOT spiritualize everything as you falsely claim. Are you denying that the context of 1 Thess 5:1-9 is related to believers being in the spiritual light in contrast to unbelievers being in spiritual darkness? Are you thinking it's talking about literal light and darkness?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Would you agree that:
a.) God never lies
Why would you ask me this? Seriously. Are you trying to offend me? Did you actually think I might disagree with this? Give me a break.

b.) HE speaks to us prophetically, literally, symbolically, allegorically, parables and even poetically
Of course.

c.) HE gives us specifics in Christ/Salvation such as John ch3
Of course.

d.) the Holy Spirit is the Author who has spoken thru multiple witnesses = 2 Peter 1:19-21
Of course.

e.) Prophecy can have more then one level/stage of fulfillment such as Christ having Two Distinct Comings
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying there is a prophecy that predicts both His first and second coming within the same prophecy? If so, which prophecy is that?

I asked how you interpret John 5:28-29. Can you please answer that question?
 

David in NJ

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Why would you ask me this? Seriously. Are you trying to offend me? Did you actually think I might disagree with this? Give me a break.


Of course.


Of course.


Of course.


I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying there is a prophecy that predicts both His first and second coming within the same prophecy? If so, which prophecy is that?

I asked how you interpret John 5:28-29. Can you please answer that question?
The account of Joseph given in Genesis is a Prophetic declaration of the First and Second Coming of Christ.
 

Charlie24

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Oh, yea! When all else fails go to plan "B" spiritualize everything to get out!

Well, I have to disagree on that! 1 Thes. 5:1-3 is speaking of the Day of the Lord coming and taking Israel by surprise

They will be in a peace treaty with the anti-christ when this sudden destruction comes upon them.

There is nothing spiritual about that, it is literally going to happen.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Well, I have to disagree on that! 1 Thes. 5:1-3 is speaking of the Day of the Lord coming and taking Israel by surprise

They will be in a peace treaty with the anti-christ when this sudden destruction comes upon them.

There is nothing spiritual about that, it is literally going to happen.
Yes, it is talking about literal destruction, but where are you getting the idea that it has anything to do with a peace treaty with the anti-christ and anything to do with taking Israel by surprise? Are you even reading all of 1 Thess 5? It seems that you are reading a lot into it without looking at the context.

1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The verses following verse 3 help show the context of what Paul was talking about in the first 3 verses. Do you think he was talking about believers being "children of the light" and not being in darkness literally or do you think he was talking about them not being in spiritual darkness?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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The account of Joseph given in Genesis is a Prophetic declaration of the First and Second Coming of Christ.
That's a stretch. It seems that you are going out of your way to come up with a way to reconcile passages like John 5:28-29 with your beliefs.
 

Charlie24

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Yes, it is talking about literal destruction, but where are you getting the idea that it has anything to do with a peace treaty with the anti-christ and anything to do with taking Israel by surprise? Are you even reading all of 1 Thess 5? It seems that you are reading a lot into it without looking at the context.

1 Thess 5:1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The verses following verse 3 help show the context of what Paul was talking about in the first 3 verses. Do you think he was talking about believers being "children of the light" and not being in darkness literally or do you think he was talking about them not being in spiritual darkness?

Already been through all that on Israel, you don't want to believe it that's fine with me.
 

David in NJ

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That's a stretch. It seems that you are going out of your way to come up with a way to reconcile passages like John 5:28-29 with your beliefs.
i have been reconciled to God thru the Precious Blood of Christ

John 5:28-29 is part of the Reconciliation ="those who have done good to the resurrection of life"
 

Spiritual Israelite

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i have been reconciled to God thru the Precious Blood of Christ

John 5:28-29 is part of the Reconciliation ="those who have done good to the resurrection of life"
You don't think that John 5:28-29 is referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead? Jesus referred specifically to people coming out of their graves, so I don't know how He could have been referring to anything but the bodily resurrection of the dead there.
 

David in NJ

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You don't think that John 5:28-29 is referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead? Jesus referred specifically to people coming out of their graves, so I don't know how He could have been referring to anything but the bodily resurrection of the dead there.
There are Two separate 'groups' coming out of the graves
a.) those who have done good to the resurrection of life
b.) and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

No one can be part of the First Group (a) unless their spirit has been Born-Again by the Spirit of God = raised from spiritual death.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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There are Two separate 'groups' coming out of the graves
a.) those who have done good to the resurrection of life
b.) and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

No one can be part of the First Group (a) unless their spirit has been Born-Again by the Spirit of God = raised from spiritual death.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
John 5:24-25 relates to Ephesians 2:1-7, not John 5:28-29. You seem to have a hard time giving straightforward answers. Do you believe that John 5:28-29 is referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead or not? It seems that you do not. Is that correct?
 

David in NJ

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John 5:24-25 relates to Ephesians 2:1-7, not John 5:28-29. You seem to have a hard time giving straightforward answers. Do you believe that John 5:28-29 is referring to the bodily resurrection of the dead or not? It seems that you do not. Is that correct?
Isn't that something!!!
Verses 24-25 'Believe' precede verses 28-29 'resurrection unto life' !!!

Call me crazy but i think Jesus was trying to tell us something here!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Isn't that something!!!
Verses 24-25 'Believe' precede verses 28-29 'resurrection unto life' !!!
And your point is?

Call me crazy but i think Jesus was trying to tell us something here!
And what would that be? Why are you avoiding answering my simple question? Do you or do you not believe that John 5:28-29 is talking about the bodily resurrection of the dead?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Because the final harvest starts at the Second Coming. Satan's 42 months is after the final harvest. The final harvest is from those alive, not those dead for thousands of years.
You think the 42 months occurs after His second coming. Unbelievable. You can't be taken seriously.

Jesus and the angels are on the earth during the final harvest.
LOL. Such nonsense. It's not even worth spending any time refuting this since you're likely the only one in the world who believes this.