Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

[Eternally Grateful]

Caveat Emptor ("Let the buyer beware")

I do accept all of Scripture. But with a realistic view.
I don't buy the false aggrandizing of it beyond its value.
And I consider that aggrandizing to be Bibliolatry.
(worship of the book, rather than the author)

Consider this:
- We don't have the original autographs (manuscripts)
- The copies, of copies, of copies we do have are incomplete fragments.
- The manuscript fragments are loaded with textual variants.
- Textual criticism is required to give us our best guess as to what the originals said.
- One of three different methods of Textual criticism were used. Which one is right?
- Translators applied their own doctrinal bias. Of their own,
or that dictated by the Church/State politics.
- Modern translations add their own level of bias.

Are these the scriptures that you accept as inerrant?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Could you actually address the issue in my post?

St. SteVen said:

Even humans are HUMANE enough to have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.
A forever burning hell with no hope of escape is off the charts in terms of pointless, sadistic, and cruel punishment.
Worse than any despot in human history. Makes the holocaust look like a Sunday School picnic.
But you are happy to lay that at God's doorstep. (for shame)

/

This would be true IF God did Not buy a way out..

he paid it with his own blood. By suffering the most horrific form of capitol punishment mankind has ever fathomed.

And not only this, He suffered a separation from the father for the first time in eternity. You and I can not fathom what that was like. But I know this. And externality in hell will not come close to the pain and suffering our savior felt.

They had a chance to get out. God gave them every opportunity to be saved, even by his creation.

They rejected him, he did not reject them..

 

[St. SteVen]

he paid it with his own blood. By suffering the most horrific form of capitol punishment mankind has ever fathomed.

Question: If you were standing at the gates of hell ready to be thrown in the Lake of Fire for all eternity with no hope of escape,
but were given the choice of an alternative punishment to be crucified as Jesus was, which would you choose?

And not only this, He suffered a separation from the father for the first time in eternity.

I think that is a misunderstanding. He was actually quoting Psalm 27.
Besides, NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.

--- EDIT --- Psalm 22

My bad. Psalm 22.

Psalm 22:1 NIV
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?

/ @Hillsage

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Question: If you were standing at the gates of hell ready to be thrown in the Lake of Fire for all eternity with no hope of escape,
but were given the choice of an alternative punishment to be crucified as Jesus was, which would you choose?

I am not God. I could not suffer what Jesus suffered on the cross (spiritual death as an innocent) so I could not chose because there would be no comparison

Again, Eternity in hell is not the price for sin.

I think that is a misunderstanding. He was actually quoting Psalm 27.
Besides, NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.

/ @Hillsage

It was no misunderstanding

Physical death was not the penalty of sin. Spiritual death is. Spiritual death is the penalty of sin.

Psalm 22 was a prophetic psalm. And spoke of the spiritual death of Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

I am not God. I could not suffer what Jesus suffered on the cross (spiritual death as an innocent) so I could not chose because there would be no comparison

Again, Eternity in hell is not the price for sin.

That's not the point.
The point is that it is not justice.

Here's what I wrote.

Even humans are HUMANE enough to have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.
A forever burning hell with no hope of escape is off the charts in terms of pointless, sadistic, and cruel punishment.
Worse than any despot in human history. Makes the holocaust look like a Sunday School picnic.
But you are happy to lay that at God's doorstep. (for shame)

And your reply.

This would be true IF God did Not buy a way out..

he paid it with his own blood. By suffering the most horrific form of capitol punishment mankind has ever fathomed.

Question: If you were standing at the gates of hell ready to be thrown in the Lake of Fire for all eternity with no hope of escape,
but were given the choice of an alternative punishment to be crucified as Jesus was, which would you choose?

/

 

[marks]

Question: If you were standing at the gates of hell ready to be thrown in the Lake of Fire for all eternity with no hope of escape,
but were given the choice of an alternative punishment to be crucified as Jesus was, which would you choose?

Actually, you have to choose "today". Then, will be too late.

These are ignorant questions.

You continue to resist God's authority, and His right to judge His creation. God understands the full reality of sin. Does your understanding exceed His? I doubt it!

You protest eternal punishment for what you see as finite sin, however, that's not the point. All who were not written in the bood of life are cast into the lake of fire, and nowhere in the Bible does it indicate any return from there.

You are make your choice today, before you die, and after that, you are either alive in Christ or you are not. If you are in Christ, these is one destiny for you. If you are not in Christ, there remains but one other destination.

Whether you like it or not.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That's not the point.
The point is that it is not justice.

Your right, it is not justice.

Again, Hell is not the penalty for sin. Seperation from God is (spiritual death)

Those who go to hell rejected salvation. And will spend eternity condemned because of that..

Here's what I wrote.

And your reply.

Question: If you were standing at the gates of hell ready to be thrown in the Lake of Fire for all eternity with no hope of escape,
but were given the choice of an alternative punishment to be crucified as Jesus was, which would you choose?

/

See above.

And I already said, What jesus suffered was far greater than anyone in hell..

 

[The Learner]

This would be true IF God did Not buy a way out..

he paid it with his own blood. By suffering the most horrific form of capitol punishment mankind has ever fathomed.

And not only this, He suffered a separation from the father for the first time in eternity. You and I can not fathom what that was like. But I know this. And externality in hell will not come close to the pain and suffering our savior felt.

They had a chance to get out. God gave them every opportunity to be saved, even by his creation.

They rejected him, he did not reject them..

Being God makes his death and raising avilable to all who come to him.

 

[The Learner]

Question: If you were standing at the gates of hell ready to be thrown in the Lake of Fire for all eternity with no hope of escape,
but were given the choice of an alternative punishment to be crucified as Jesus was, which would you choose?


I think that is a misunderstanding. He was actually quoting Psalm 27.
Besides, NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.

/ @Hillsage

Psalm 27
Easy-to-Read Version
A song of David.
27 Lord, you are my Light and my Savior,
so why should I be afraid of anyone?
The Lord is where my life is safe,
so I will be afraid of no one!
2 Evil people might attack me.
They might try to destroy my body.
Yes, my enemies might attack me and try to destroy me,
but they will stumble and fall.
3 Even if an army surrounds me, I will not be afraid.
Even if people attack me in war, I will trust in the Lord.

4 I ask only one thing from the Lord.
This is what I want most:
Let me live in the Lord’s house all my life,
enjoying the Lord’s beauty
and spending time in his palace.[a]

5 He will protect me when I am in danger.
He will hide me in his tent.
He will take me up to his place of safety.
6 If he will help me defeat the enemies around me,
I will offer sacrifices in his tent with shouts of joy.
I will sing and play songs to honor the Lord.

7 Lord, hear my voice.
Be kind and answer me.
8 My heart told me to come to you, Lord,
so I am coming to ask for your help.
9 Don’t turn away from me.
Don’t be angry with your servant.
You are the only one who can help me.
My God, don’t leave me all alone.
You are my Savior.
10 Even if my mother and father leave me,
the Lord will take me in.
11 I have enemies, Lord, so teach me your ways.
Show me the right way to live.
12 My enemies have attacked me.
They have told lies about me and have tried to hurt me.
13 But I really believe
that I will see the Lord’s goodness before I die.[c]
14 Wait for the Lord’s help.
Be strong and brave,
and wait for the Lord’s help.

 

[St. SteVen]

Those who go to hell rejected salvation. And will spend eternity condemned because of that..

There are countless billions that never so much as heard the name of Jesus.
What about them?

And I already said, What jesus suffered was far greater than anyone in hell..

I don't believe that to be the case.

Burning forever with no hope of escape, but unable to die, is the most sadist torture imaginable.
Crucifixion in this natural world would be much preferred. IMHO

/

 

[The Learner]

Psalm 22
Easy-to-Read Version

22 My God, my God, why have you left me?
You seem too far away to save me,
too far to hear my cries for help!
2 My God, I kept calling by day,
and I was not silent at night.
But you did not answer me.

3 God, you are the Holy One.
You sit as King upon the praises of Israel.
4 Our ancestors trusted you.
Yes, they trusted you, and you saved them.
5 They called to you for help and escaped their enemies.
They trusted you and were not disappointed!
6 But I feel like a worm, less than human!
People insult me and look down on me.
7 Everyone who sees me makes fun of me.
They shake their heads and stick out their tongues at me.
8 They say, “Call to the Lord for help.
Maybe he will save you.
If he likes you so much, surely he will rescue you!”

9 God, the truth is, you are the one who brought me into this world.
You made me feel safe while I was still at my mother’s breasts.
10 You have been my God since the day I was born.
I was thrown into your arms as I came from my mother’s womb.

11 So don’t leave me!
Trouble is near, and there is no one to help me.
12 My enemies surround me like angry bulls.
They are like the powerful bulls of Bashan, and they are all around me.
13 Their mouths are opened wide,
like a lion roaring and tearing at its prey.

14 My strength is gone,
like water poured out on the ground.
My bones have separated.
My courage is gone.
15 My mouth[c] is as dry as a piece of baked pottery.
My tongue is sticking to the roof of my mouth.
You have left me dying in the dust.
16 The “dogs” are all around me—
a pack[d] of evil people has trapped me.
They have pierced my hands and feet.[e]
17 I can see each one of my bones.
My enemies are looking at me;
they just keep staring.
18 They divide my clothes among themselves,
and they throw lots for what I am wearing.

19 Lord, don’t leave me!
You are my strength—hurry and help me!
20 Save me from the sword.
Save my precious life from these dogs.
21 Rescue me from the lion’s mouth.
Protect me from the horns of the bulls.[f]

22 I will tell my people about you.
I will praise you in the great assembly.
23 Praise the Lord, all you who worship him!
Honor him, you descendants of Jacob!
Fear and respect him, all you people of Israel!
24 He does not ignore those who need help.
He does not hate them.
He does not turn away from them.
He listens when they cry for help.

25 Lord, because of you I offer praise in the great assembly.
In front of all these worshipers I will do all that I promised.
26 Poor people, come eat and be satisfied.[g]
You who have come looking for the Lord, praise him!
May your hearts be happy[h] forever.
27 May those in faraway countries remember the Lord and come back to him.
May those in distant lands worship him,
28 because the Lord is the King.
He rules all nations.
29 The people have eaten all they wanted
and bowed down to worship him.
Yes, everyone will bow down to him—
all who are on the way to the grave, unable to hold on to life.
30 Our descendants will serve him.
Those who are not yet born will be told about him.
31 Each generation will tell their children
about the good things the Lord has done.

 

[St. SteVen]

Psalm 27
Easy-to-Read Version
A song of David.
27 Lord, you are my Light and my Savior,
so why should I be afraid of anyone?
The Lord is where my life is safe,
so I will be afraid of no one!
2 Evil people might attack me.
They might try to destroy my body.
Yes, my enemies might attack me and try to destroy me,
but they will stumble and fall.
3 Even if an army surrounds me, I will not be afraid.
Even if people attack me in war, I will trust in the Lord.

4 I ask only one thing from the Lord.
This is what I want most:
Let me live in the Lord’s house all my life,
enjoying the Lord’s beauty
and spending time in his palace.[a]

5 He will protect me when I am in danger.
He will hide me in his tent.
He will take me up to his place of safety.
6 If he will help me defeat the enemies around me,
I will offer sacrifices in his tent with shouts of joy.
I will sing and play songs to honor the Lord.

7 Lord, hear my voice.
Be kind and answer me.
8 My heart told me to come to you, Lord,
so I am coming to ask for your help.
9 Don’t turn away from me.
Don’t be angry with your servant.
You are the only one who can help me.
My God, don’t leave me all alone.
You are my Savior.
10 Even if my mother and father leave me,
the Lord will take me in.
11 I have enemies, Lord, so teach me your ways.
Show me the right way to live.
12 My enemies have attacked me.
They have told lies about me and have tried to hurt me.
13 But I really believe
that I will see the Lord’s goodness before I die.[c]
14 Wait for the Lord’s help.
Be strong and brave,
and wait for the Lord’s help.

My bad. Psalm 22.

Psalm 22:1 NIV
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
/

 

[The Learner]

Psalm 22
King James Version
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

 

[The Learner]

My bad. Psalm 22.

Psalm 22:1 NIV
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
/

That's ok both are worth reading friend

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There are countless billions that never so much as heard the name of Jesus.
What about them?

romans 1.
if they would recieve gods truth, god would sent people to them

I don't believe that to be the case.

Burning forever with no hope of escape, but unable to die, is the most sadist torture imaginable.
Crucifixion in this natural world would be much preferred. IMHO

/

again, you do not understand what Christ went through

the people have no one to blame but themselves

 

[Hillsage]

No, I am not kidding. If everyone, no matter who they are or what they believe, will be saved, The the cross is foolishness.

It is truly with sadness for your soul that I say this, I knew you weren't kidding. I know you truly believe that way.

For the preaching of the cross is ....foolishness;...unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

You can keep believing the cross is foolishness and I'll keep believing it is powerful, because I am saved.

If God is going to save anyone anyway. They there is no need to send his son to die that death.

And NOW you want to SWITCH, and minimize the SIN that you have so aggrandized as being worthy of ETERNAL TORTURE????
I just believe the bible, and the fact that God knew the COST of SIN better than you. And He knew it would take His son's life as the price to be paid for ALL His creation. God knew the COST and you don't, that seems to be the 'simple truth' answer for me.

Saying everyone will be saved is to mock the cross.

You are mocking the cross because scripture says the PREACHING OF death on THE CROSS IS FOOLISHNESS. And what we are saying is magnifying the GOD whose plan of salvation has surpassed the minds of those who simply do not understand.

 

[Hillsage]

I am not God. I could not suffer what Jesus suffered on the cross (spiritual death as an innocent) so I could not chose because there would be no comparison

The Word became a human flesh body and that body is the only thing that died.

Again, Eternity in hell is not the price for sin.

What church do you go to that teaches most of God's created human population isn't going to end up in ETERNAL HELL????

Physical death was not the penalty of sin. Spiritual death is. Spiritual death is the penalty of sin.

Not a scripture in the whole book that says that.

Psalm 22 was a prophetic psalm. And spoke of the spiritual death of Christ.

And on the cross Jesus SENT His spirit to the Father BEFORE His human body died of asphixiation.

LUK 23:46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.

Now you produce ONE verse saying; 'spiritual death'. I've never found one.

 

[Hillsage]

Eternal hell is not the payment for sin. Thats Why Jesus had to die

I'm sorry what you just said doesn't even make sense.

Eternal hell is where those who reject God will spend apart from him.

I believe that's what we're telling you. Suffering for ETERNITY in HELL is a HELL of a lot worse than spending your time "apart from Him". If you can't 'see that'. maybe you just don't have "eyes to see" OR "ears to hear" what we "see and hear". I've seen people all my life who are living their entire lives on earth "apart from him" and I don't hear them screaming in more UNGODLY PAIN than even Hitler could invoke.

it was not created for mankind, it was created for satan and his fallen angels. Sadly, those who reject Christ will go there with Satan and his angels..

I don't believe that my OMNISCIENT GOD was so DUMB he forgot that He only made Hell for Satan and a few angels, when He was really going to 'fill it up' with humans who died never getting saved......from 1st Adam to the last human.

You simply don't know that the "fire of Hell" is purgative and a tool of Satan and his angels to BURN THE HELL OUT OF YOU. That' was the MINISTRY God created Satan for.

PSA 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

1CO 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1TI 1:20 among them Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.


So, Eternally Grateful.....doesn't your "spirit getting SAVED" and your SOUL learning "NOT TO BLASPHEME". sound like GOOD THINGS?
Does to me, so maybe your theology has a few holes you don't know about.

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Christian Universalism/Apokatastasis has roots in the early church in the east.
It was a leading theology in the east (Greek-speaking church) and was supported by many of
the Patristic Church Fathers, as I understand it.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge" by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96 German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor: "In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

The main Patristic supporters of the apokatastasis theory, such as Bardaisan, Clement, Origin, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilus Martyr, Methodius, St. Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians), St. Evagrius Ponticus, Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome and St. Augustine (at least initially) … Cassian, St. Issac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Scot Eriugena, and many others, grounded their Christian doctrine of apokatastasis first of all in the Bible.
— Ramelli, Christian Doctrine, 11.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is this news to you? What's your view?
Interesting that Christian Universalism is marginalized today.

There are three biblical views of the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Christian Universalism (UR)

All three views are in conflict with each other.
A forever burning hell is in conflict with complete annihilation.
And both are in conflict with ultimate restoration. (UR)

In my view Christian Universalism is the best match for the character of God.
A loving God doesn't toss his kids in a furnace and then blame it on them. IMHO

Maybe by the writing of Paul.

Was Paul a Universalist? - Credo Magazine

While there are numerous nuances within universalism, the common denominator is that all people without exception will one day be saved and, put negatively, that no one will experience eternal punishment. Universalism has recently made inroads into evangelical circles, and even though it...

credomag.com

• “Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men” (Rom. 5:18). [2]
• “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all” (Rom. 11:32).
• “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).
• “o that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil. 2:10–11).
  [*]“[A]nd through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross” (Col. 1:20).
  [*]And many others: Rom 14:11; 2 Cor 5:14–21; Eph 1:10; 1 Tim 2:4
  

A good point is to ask,if God is all that he says of himself,what would eternal Hell punishment say of God?

 

[St. SteVen]

romans 1.
if they would recieve gods truth, god would sent people to them

Does it actually say that? (nope)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Maybe by the writing of Paul.

Was Paul a Universalist? - Credo Magazine

While there are numerous nuances within universalism, the common denominator is that all people without exception will one day be saved and, put negatively, that no one will experience eternal punishment. Universalism has recently made inroads into evangelical circles, and even though it...

credomag.com

• “Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men” (Rom. 5:18). [2]
• “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all” (Rom. 11:32).
• “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

Good points, thanks.

My topic was to address the misconception that UR was a modern/liberal doctrinal invention.
Obviously, it has its roots in the theology of the early church, and as you pointed out,
in the writings of Paul. Which opponents of UR claim we are taking out of context.

/