Where is the reformation in the Bible?

[theefaith]

There was no Muslim Invasion of the Holy Land, Crusades, Discovery of the New World, US Civil War or Second Vatican Council either ... by that logic.
None of those events are recorded in the Bible!
Not even in the Apocrypha!
(although if we canonize the Book of Mormon, we might be able to accept the discovery of the new world as a real event).

none of those things are ordained by God like your claim of the great revolt against Christ and his holy church aka the Protestant reformation
The so called reformers had no authority from Christ he alone builds the church Matt 16:18 eph 2:20 they were not apostles

 

[theefaith]

1. They were not "so-called" reformers, they actually were reformers because the RCC had fallen into gross sin at the highest levels and even admitted so when it adopted MOST of the reforms the reformers were asking for. Can I still buy forgiveness from sin with cash from the RCC? How much does it cost? Do they have a price list for common sins? That was what Luther most wanted to reform.
2. No reformer ever claimed to be an Apostle, so that is a moot point.
3. The Pope is not an Apostle according to the CRITERIA established by Peter in Acts, so by what authority does the Pope violate Sola Scriptura, the Holy Word of God and play the Pharisee rather than obey Jesus Christ?

Matthew 23:1-12 [NKJV]
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do. For they bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments. They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.' "

"But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."​

sola scriptura is not a biblical doctrine
Christ has all authority even to change the commandments Matt 5:21-22
Peter and the apostles are appointed with this authority Matt 16:18 matt 18:18
Whatsoever (that’s anything) you bind on earth is bound in heaven

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments the abundant life of grace!

 

[theefaith]

Call no man father

Typical fundamentalist misunderstandings!

Matt 23:9
Call no man Father?

Is this an absolute requirement?
Or is Our Savior condemning pride and spiritual pride of the Pharisees?

God calls men father!

Ex 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Jesus calls men father!

Jn 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

Mary calls men father!

Lk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

Peter calls men father!

Acts3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.

The stephen calls men father!

Acts 7 Stephen quotes the fathers over and over!

The Bible calls men father!

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.



Then there is spiritual fathers!

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Peter, Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

Is 22 the administrator of the kingdom is called father, so the same for Peter, the apostles, and their successors!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

 

[theefaith]

Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

 

[theefaith]

... "If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book" ... [Revelation 22:18]
It is a dangerous thing to say "God says" and add things that God never said.

How many people are healed by Francis' shadow to authenticate his Apostolic Authority?

I don’t say anything about Francis, not even sure he is a valid pope or any since Pius 12 everything since 1958 is in doubt at least

I did not add or even quote the book of revelation

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments the abundant life of grace!

not adding just quoting

John 20:21

As the Father sent me, I send you!

not complicated

Exactly the same mission, ministry, power, and authority!

 

[atpollard]

sola scriptura is not a biblical doctrine

Show me any "Biblical Doctrine" not based on SCRIPTURE but on TRADITION, and explain how that can be a "biblical" doctrine.
... YOU ARE TALKING LIKE A CRAZY PERSON!

Sola Scriptura is the self-evident belief that Biblical Doctrines are based on the BIBLE and not on HUMAN TRADITION or DIVINE INSPIRATION OF THE POPE. The RCC claims that Biblical Doctrines (based on the Bible) are equal to Non-Biblical and Contra-Biblical Church Doctrines based on TRADITION and PAPAL INSPIRATION (ex-cathedra).

The Assumption of Mary is NON-BIBLICAL (the event does not appear in scripture) but is based on TRADITION.
Purgatory is CONTRA-BIBLICAL (scripture says it is not true) so it is based on TRADITION and PAPAL INSPIRATION (I do not believe that the EO Catholic Churches believe in purgatory). The Deity of Christ is a BIBLICAL doctrine.

Sola Scriptura says that stories can be false and people can be wrong so only doctrines based on the God-breathed HOLY SCRIPTURE can be trusted.

 

[atpollard]

and their successors

... said God, NEVER.
(as proven by the lack of Apostolic power).

 

[James the Rabbit]

I don't think anyone can deny that there was a lot of corruption with in the Vatican during the late Middle Ages, but Luther was a bit of a kook. Megalomania is not the answer to corruption. True reform happens in good faith

 

[atpollard]

I don’t say anything about Francis, not even sure he is a valid pope or any since Pius 12 everything since 1958 is in doubt at least

OK, so Petrine succession and the CHURCH ended in 1958 ... so what are we talking about?
Thank goodness God preserved for himself a remanent in the non RCC (Eastern Orthodox and Protestants).

 

[atpollard]

True reform happens in good faith

I am pretty sure that inviting someone to tell his side (Luther) and hiring people to ambush and kill him on the way is not "in good faith".

Luther was a zealot who started out asking for reasonable changes and became more radical as the RCC circled the wagons to defend its corruption. It was sort of the spirit of the times. They needed to add a chill pill to every person's drinking water. Burning heretics was crazy.

 

[theefaith]

Show me any "Biblical Doctrine" not based on SCRIPTURE but on TRADITION, and explain how that can be a "biblical" doctrine.
... YOU ARE TALKING LIKE A CRAZY PERSON!

Sola Scriptura is the self-evident belief that Biblical Doctrines are based on the BIBLE and not on HUMAN TRADITION or DIVINE INSPIRATION OF THE POPE. The RCC claims that Biblical Doctrines (based on the Bible) are equal to Non-Biblical and Contra-Biblical Church Doctrines based on TRADITION and PAPAL INSPIRATION (ex-cathedra).

The Assumption of Mary is NON-BIBLICAL (the event does not appear in scripture) but is based on TRADITION.
Purgatory is CONTRA-BIBLICAL (scripture says it is not true) so it is based on TRADITION and PAPAL INSPIRATION (I do not believe that the EO Catholic Churches believe in purgatory). The Deity of Christ is a BIBLICAL doctrine.

Sola Scriptura says that stories can be false and people can be wrong so only doctrines based on the God-breathed HOLY SCRIPTURE can be trusted.

Slow down, take a breath
One at a time
Tradition is in scripture and scripture is part of tradition

tradition does not mean an inspiration but that which is handed down
The entire Christian Faith is revealed by God thru Christ to the apostles they are to teach the nations. Matt 16:18 Lk 1:4 eph 20:21-23 eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and holdthe traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

an example

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

delivered or handed down

 

[theefaith]

I don't think anyone can deny that there was a lot of corruption with in the Vatican during the late Middle Ages, but Luther was a bit of a kook. Megalomania is not the answer to corruption. True reform happens in good faith

the apostles and their successors are not impeccable the holy church founded by Christ is

 

[theefaith]

OK, so Petrine succession and the CHURCH ended in 1958 ... so what are we talking about?
Thank goodness God preserved for himself a remanent in the non RCC (Eastern Orthodox and Protestants).

No all heretics, schismatics, apostates are outside the church

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)
The holy church founded by Christ is the ark of salvation!

so Petrine succession and the CHURCH ended in 1958

no but I have doubts about the validity of those in the office

Invalid Popes
anti-popes
counterfeit popes or imposters
Are all possible

 

[CadyandZoe]

you could live in Rome and still come out of her
By not participating in her abominations

If Rome was the woman, okay. But Rome is the beast, not the woman. Right?

 

[Wrangler]

there is only one church
Jn 10:16

So many indoctrinated takes on Scripture. Jn 10:16 refers to saints. For some bizarre reason, you are equating it with members of the Roman denomination.

 

[Amazed@grace]

So many indoctrinated takes on Scripture. Jn 10:16 refers to saints. For some bizarre reason, you are equating it with members of the Roman denomination.

I believe it refers to "Gentiles". Being Jesus was Messiah to the house of Israel I believe the other sheep that would hear his voice, those not of the Hebrews flock, were us.

And in the end, Jew and Gentile, female and male, no longer apply to our identity as people because we are all one in Christ Jesus. We are all, Saints.

Whereas, the RRCC decides who among their dead qualify for sainthood and based on their works, and "miracles" .

Here is something else to consider I think. As pertains to praying to the dead, who are alive with Christ, or whose souls are asleep, depending on which scripture one prefers.

If we accept all things are predetermined by God according to his will and plan, what is praying to saints but imploring God to change his mind on ones behalf? And what is that a product of but faiyhlessness? Not trusting God's will. As well as an example of ego and pride.

And where is the scripture where Jesus expressly teaches us to pray to the dead in Christ, that he would intercede when they implore him on him on our behalf?

 

[Curtis]

Where does the Bible say that services should be conducted in a language the people do NOT UNDERSTAND?

Where does the Bible say to kill anyone found with a non-Latin Bible?

 

[Josho]

@Hemlock your hatred for Catholics, is noted...

You will receive a warning for Harassment, if it has not been already done so.

And let this be a friendly warning for all, if you cannot discuss and debate these threads in a peaceful, respectable manner, you should either avoid participating in topics like these or watch out...

Here is a reminder of the rules
Christianity Board Forum Rules

 

[ReChoired]

Where is the reformation in the Bible? [OP title]

It's found in several places, but if you want a beginners course, see Daniel 11:32-35.

 

[ReChoired]

@Hemlock your hatred for Catholics, is noted...

You will receive a warning for Harassment, if it has not been already done so.

And let this be a friendly warning for all, if you cannot discuss and debate these threads in a peaceful, respectable manner, you should either avoid participating in topics like these or watch out...

Here is a reminder of the rules
Christianity Board Forum Rules

Yeah, I don't hate 'Catholics', I hate 'Catholicism', its deeds and doctrines, and every false way, just like God does.

Rev_2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
Rev_2:15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Psa_119:104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
Psa_119:128 Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I hate every false way.