WHO ARE THE TWO WITNESSES IN REVELATION ?
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Earburner
Well-Known Member
Scripturally, the NT reveals that just before their birth, they were spiritually ordained of God to be a joint ministry, totalling to 1260 days (3.5 years).
Luke 1:41-44
The ministry of John the Baptist before his beheading, was for 6 months.
Jesus' mininistry was for 3 years, and was crucified.
Trained For 30 Years, Used For 6 Months, Yet The Greatest: 5 Lessons To Learn From John The Baptist - Opera News
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The two witnesses are two prophets that either will or already did appear. It's possible they appeared in Jesus time shortly after.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
That idea is interesting but doesn't fit with scripture. As the book of revelation was written after their deaths.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
It's your idea that doesn't fit with their deaths. As the book of Revelation is the Eternal mind of God, who thinks in the past, present and the future, all at the same time, and therefore it is written as such. Isaiah 55:8-9.
The book of Revelation isn't all that chronological, as you have been led by others to believe.
Revelation 1[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;......
A good example of that is found in Revelation 12:1-17.
Edit: when I said the following: "No, they both appeared in the EXACT time of Jesus.
See my post above.", I was referring to John the Baptist and Jesus themselves, because there are no others that shall come!!
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The question was specific, thus to go and read the Bible is the option Pinseeker, was my question correct and on topic or not about the two witnesses is what needs to be answered.
Jesus, Earburner, is Who all this witnessing is about. And John the Baptist is not living now, nor is he somehow going to be reincarnated 2000-plus years after he died. I've heard a lot of things in all my years as a Christian and a theologian, but never have I heard someone say that they think Jesus and John the Baptist are the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation 11. Sounds like you are a full preterist. In any case, all that is... quite far... yes, quite far out there.
I'll just refer folks back to my earlier post in this thread (post 8):
Just generally speaking, a witness may or may not be an actual person, and in the case of Revelation 11, the two witnesses are not people, per se, but the Old Testament and the New Testament, respectively. What is being personified ~ as wisdom is personified in Proverbs ~ is a symbolic vision of Christian witness. rather than two individuals, past, present or future. So the two witnesses are as follows:
- The "first witness" of Revelation 11 is Israel as it was before the coming of Christ ~ Old Israel, the Israelites, the Old Testament, ethnic Jews only
- The "second witness" of Revelation 11 is Israel as it exists now since the coming of coming, crucifixion, and resurrection of Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit ~ New Israel, all the Israel of God, the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, which includes Jew and Gentile
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Matthew, I know God's Word quite well, thanks. The question itself was not really the problem, but you seemed to be referencing Scripture but gave no references. If there is a specific passage you want to talk about, then fire away. Present it, and then state your conclusions and/or ask for mine or that of others. Or not; suit yourself.
Grace and peace to you.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 2:5Jesus, Earburner, is Who all this witnessing is about. And John the Baptist is not living now, nor is he somehow going to be reincarnated 2000-plus years after he died. I've heard a lot of things in all my years as a Christian and a theologian, but never have I heard someone say that they think Jesus and John the Baptist are the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation 11. Sounds like you are a full preterist. In any case, all that is... quite far... yes, quite far out there.
I'll just refer folks back to my earlier post in this thread (post 8):
Just generally speaking, a witness may or may not be an actual person, and in the case of Revelation 11, the two witnesses are not people, per se, but the Old Testament and the New Testament, respectively. What is being personified ~ as wisdom is personified in Proverbs ~ is a symbolic vision of Christian witness. rather than two individuals, past, present or future. So the two witnesses are as follows:
Grace and peace to all.
- The "first witness" of Revelation 11 is Israel as it was before the coming of Christ ~ Old Israel, the Israelites, the Old Testament, ethnic Jews only
- The "second witness" of Revelation 11 is Israel as it exists now since the coming of coming, crucifixion, and resurrection of Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit ~ New Israel, all the Israel of God, the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, which includes Jew and Gentile
John 5:39
The scriptures were/are not to testify of the church.
Maybe this will help:
Trained For 30 Years, Used For 6 Months, Yet The Greatest: 5 Lessons To Learn From John The Baptist - Opera News
John is the witness of Who the Son is: the Lamb OF God, that taketh away the sin of the world.
Jesus is the witness of Who the Father is: The LORD God, the Creator, who is a Spirit.
Zech.4[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand [firm, fast] by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.
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No idea what prompted you to say that...
See above.
Grace and peace to you, Earburner.[/QUOTE]
Earburner
Well-Known Member
[/QUOTE]No idea what prompted you to say that...
See above.
Grace and peace to you, Earbuner.
The scripture of Zechariah 4:14 testifies about Jesus as being one of the two witnesses who CAME, and not anyone of the church that is being speculated to come, in some distant future in the form of Elijah, as per John 5:39.
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@PinSeeker
The Two Witnesses
11 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days,clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
The Two Witnesses
11 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. 3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days,clothed in sackcloth.” 4 They are “the two olive trees” and the two lampstands, and “they stand before the Lord of the earth.” 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 They have power to shut up the heavens so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.
Ah, Zechariah 4, which I referred to earlier. This is apocalyptic literature, Earburner. Zechariah gives us an apocalyptic vision that points us to the end of days... while also alluding to realities that occur throughout the history of God's people., which is going on now, and will until Christ returns. This is exactly what John does throughout his Revelation. To that end, we are the ones who are sent out by the Lord into the world to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (Jesus has) commanded (us)... (for) behold, (He is) with (us) always, to the end of the age” (Jesus, Matthew 28:19). In this way, we are the anointed ones, anointed by the Lord with the Holy Spirit, as John tells us in 1 John 2:20-27...
"But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us ~ eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie ~ just as it has taught you, abide in Him."
Grace and peace to you.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
I am understanding that you are saying that the witnesses are two church ages, being OC and NC people. I can perceive that, but I only can agree to part of it. I apply it through His Spirit mind within me through Zechariah 14, Joel 2:27-29 and 3:14.
Then I relate it to Malachi 3:16, which is fulfilled in Revelation 6:9-11, being all connected to the Day of Pentecost, the beginning of this Age of God's Grace.
BTW, an "altar" is synonymous with the word "remembrance". "Altars" were/are erected for people, places and events, whereby people can remember. We still do it today.
The names of the OC saints of faith, though dead before Pentecost, died in faith of the coming "Promised One", and God did not forget them, as shown in Revelation 6:9-11. Being given white robes, they have now been translated into the book of Life, who is Jesus, and are asleep resting in Him.
Though "pharisaical church-ianity" has falsely discerned for only two comings of the Lord, the biblical reality is, there are three.
1. First coming- in the flesh- past.
2. Second coming- in the Spirit- present.
3. Third coming- in His Fiery Immortality.
When you can place the following scripture into the correct reality of Jesus' three comings above, you will have gained an enormous amount of understanding in the Lord: Luke 17:20.
Since you do know your KJV Bible, through His mind within you, you should have no problem connecting with the scriptures that support what I am saying.
Because "church-ianity" has messed up on the term of Jesus' second coming for two millennia, the error continues to run rampant through the churches.
It has to do with the two time periods (before and after Christ's first coming), but the two witnesses referred to symbolically in Revelation 11 are the one Gospel of God, manifest differently in the two time periods. We can correlate it closely with Hebrews 1:1-2, which says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." God's message to His people was not different, per se, in the days of the Israelites, but it was necessary to convey His message through different methods, as opposed to since Christ's coming. So we now have two witnesses ~ what we call the Old Testament being one and what we call the New Testament being the other; we can use the Old Testament as well as the New Testament even today in witnessing about Christ.
So again I say, like John in 10:1-11, the two witnesses are symbolic models for all the saints to imitate. All of us are to be faithful to the testimony of Jesus, even in the face of violent persecution from the Beast. We must be willing to face martyrdom, and God guarantees our vindication (vv. 11-12). In agreement with Revelation as a whole we find here a symbolic vision of Christian witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (v. 4), indicating that they are symbolic figures standing for the one witness of the lampstand-churches of Revelation 1:20.
Sure. Absolutely.
Well, honestly, I'm not even sure how you got here; you seem to have made some kind of leap to something else, but no matter...
I'm with you on number 1 above, but after that... Do you not understand Christ and the Holy Spirit to be two different persons, Earburner? If not, maybe you should reread John 14. Just the following should be enough, as Jesus says, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you... the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." Too, remember Jesus's ascension in Acts 1, where the angel says to Jesus's disciples, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven." Surely you do not think this to have already happened. And regarding the Holy Spirit, we see His coming in Acts 2 at Pentecost, which you have alluded to. Regarding Luke 17:20, let's remember the Lord's whole quote there. Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” So even in Christ's day ~ even when He said that ~ the kingdom of God had already come. Even now, it is not yet here in its fullness, but is surely here. When Christ returns, He will usher in the kingdom in its fullness. This is what we call the "now-and-not-yet" of the Gospel; we are looking forward to and anticipating the Day of Christ, His second coming. We know it is coming, so we can live in the certainty of it now.
"Pharisaical church-ianity"... <chuckles>
There are only two comings, one in the past, His birth 2000-plus years ago, and the other His coming again, His return, at the end of this age. As Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 in speaking of Christ's glorious coming ~ παρουσίαν (parousia) in the Greek ~ the time when Jesus Christ will return to judge humanity at the end of the world: "...the coming of the Lord... the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command..."
I mean, regardless of the version, yes, but I don't think they support some of what you seem to be saying.
Not sure what you mean here, Earburner. Are you talking about the term 'parousia'? I'm... really not sure what you think the error is.
Grace and peace to you.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
I surmised that you would have some difficulty in discerning what I am saying.It has to do with the two time periods (before and after Christ's first coming), but the two witnesses referred to symbolically in Revelation 11 are the one Gospel of God, manifest differently in the two time periods. We can correlate it closely with Hebrews 1:1-2, which says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..." God's message to His people was not different, per se, in the days of the Israelites, but it was necessary to convey His message through different methods, as opposed to since Christ's coming. So we now have two witnesses ~ what we call the Old Testament being one and what we call the New Testament being the other; we can use the Old Testament as well as the New Testament even today in witnessing about Christ.
So again I say, like John in 10:1-11, the two witnesses are symbolic models for all the saints to imitate. All of us are to be faithful to the testimony of Jesus, even in the face of violent persecution from the Beast. We must be willing to face martyrdom, and God guarantees our vindication (vv. 11-12). In agreement with Revelation as a whole we find here a symbolic vision of Christian witness. The two witnesses are two lampstands (v. 4), indicating that they are symbolic figures standing for the one witness of the lampstand-churches of Revelation 1:20.
Sure. Absolutely.
Well, honestly, I'm not even sure how you got here; you seem to have made some kind of leap to something else, but no matter...
Regarding Luke 17:20, let's remember the Lord's whole quote there. Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” So even in Christ's day ~ even when He said that ~ the kingdom of God had already come. Even now, it is not yet here in its fullness, but is surely here. When Christ returns, He will usher in the kingdom in its fullness. This is what we call the "now-and-not-yet" of the Gospel; we are looking forward to and anticipating the Day of Christ, His second coming. We know it is coming, so we can live in the certainty of it now.
"Pharisaical church-ianity"... <chuckles>
There are only two comings, one in the past, His birth 2000-plus years ago, and the other His coming again, His return, at the end of this age. As Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 in speaking of Christ's glorious coming ~ παρουσίαν (parousia) in the Greek ~ the time when Jesus Christ will return to judge humanity at the end of the world: "...the coming of the Lord... the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command..."
I mean, regardless of the version, yes, but I don't think they support some of what you seem to be saying.
Not sure what you mean here, Earburner. Are you talking about the term 'parousia'? I'm... really not sure what you think the error is.
Grace and peace to you.
It's really not complicated. In fact it's less of a "mind warp" than what church-ianity has "cooked up" for us. Matthew 16:6, 11, 1 Corinthians 2:5.
To start off with, I am not here attempting to split hairs over the doctrines fabricated by church-ianity.
But, one must definitely come to understand and accept the fact, that the OT prophets had no clue in which of the three comings of the Lord, their prophecies were going to be fulfilled in.
However, all of their prophecies must show up in all the three comings of Jesus, and of course they do, but to KNOW which is which, it requires the Wisdom of God, aka the Mind of Christ within us. John 16:13, Isaiah 55:8-9, and NOT the scholarly wisdom of men. 1 Corinthians 2:5.
We are to discern what was fulfilled, what is being fulfilled, and what shall be fulfilled in His three comings. But first, WE MUST KNOW that there really ARE THREE comings of the Lord. Unfortunately, the "Tares" have put their own spin on His comings, and have falsely declared it to be according to their knowledge, and no one is allowed to differ.
Again, Jesus' three comings:
1. When He came to Israel only in the flesh? Matthew 15:24.
2. When He now comes to each of us in the Spirit since Pentecost? John 14:21, Acts 2:16-21, Revelation 3:20.
3. When He shall come to All the world in His fiery Immortality? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
All of what God spoke through the prophets, was to be kept secret, even from they themselves, until Jesus' first coming. Matthew 13:35.
As for "who is who", in regards to the Holy Spirit, I agree that it is a situation of plurality of Persons.
John 14:28.
If there be a true concept of a "Trinity, this is how it really should be understood:
1. God the Father IN Jesus, then
2. God the Son IN us, through faith, makes it to be
3. Both God the Father and God the Son together with-IN us, therefore all ARE one IN God the Father. 2 Corinthians 6:17-18.
There is no additional third, separate being of the Godhead. Prior to Jesus first coming in the flesh, He was with God as One, and always has been. John 14:10-11, 18-23. Both together, they are the Holy Spirit of God together, who is One. Specifically, John 14:18 and 21.
By His resurrection and ascension, Jesus has reverted back to the glory that He once had with the Father (John 17:5), but now, spiritually and physically, He is forever changed into "the firstborn from the dead", and into the First New creature (creation), being God the Son, and God the son of man. He has become our eldest brother among many brethren, in God the Father.
Edit: Now for anyone who understands that which I just said, they will truly understand what the following is saying:
2Cor.4[7] But we have this [His] treasure in [our] earthen vessels [our physical bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
1John.5[8] And there are three that bear witness in earth [our bodies], the [Holy] Spirit, and the water [our flesh], and the blood [that gives life to the flesh]: and these three agree in one.
All who are unsaved, are only flesh (water) and blood.
Q. What was it that was just described?
A. 2Cor.5[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Final questions: what is the New earth?
We are the New earth, our very ownselves, with God the Father and God the Son dwelling within us.?
Do you know of any other place where they would rather dwell??
It's why we were created in the first place!
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LOL! No such "difficulty," Earburner. There are not "three comings" of the Lord, the second Person of the triune Jehovah (the third being the Holy Spirit). Jesus (the aforementioned second Person) never was without the glory He had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5), but, though God, humbled Himself and set His deity aside for a time, becoming man and subsequently accomplishing our redemption in His death on the cross (Philippians 2:5-11).
Ohhhh... yes, there is...
Jesus is very clear about the distinct personhoods of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in John 14, as I cited above.YIKES!
I mean, the is not ALL bad, but there's a bit of good of correction needed here... You're a very interesting fellow, Earburner.
Very colorful... We disagree on quite a bit, for sure. But that's... okay. Grace and peace to you.
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