Who did Jesus Die a Ransom for?
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Johann
Well-Known Member
This is an excellent question-and as far as I know Scripture is silent on this matter-maybe you can enlighten me-with Scriptures?
In C.S. Lewis’s classic work of “supposal,” The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe, we see where Aslan makes the payment of his life for Edmund’s liberation in response to the White Witch’s demands. It’s a powerful scene and not without biblical resonance, but if we draw the lines to directly, we may make a theological mistake of some importance. Aslan is clearly Christ in the story, and the Witch is clearly the stand-in for our accuser Satan. But while Satan is often called the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4), he is still subservient to the sovereign Lord of all the cosmos.
So we have to be careful in how we speak of ransom, lest we lend too much power to the enemy and deflect too much glory away from God.
There is in fact a “ransom text” in the Bible that gives us a clue as to whom is being paid the ransom. In 1 Timothy 2:5-6, Paul writes:
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
The context of this passage show us Christ as the “mediator” not between men and the devil or between God and the devil but between men and God. It would seem from the shape of this text, that the ransom is paid by the Son of God to God the Father, as Jesus becomes the ransoming mediator between God and men, making atonement for men to God. And of course we see the foundation of this truth in Psalm 49:7, where the ransom price of man’s life is said to be owed to God.
In this sense, the ransom view of the atonement is similar to the concept of propitiation (Rom. 3:25; Heb. 2:17; 1 John 2:2), which means “to make favorable.” Who has Christ made favorable with His sacrifice on the cross? Certainly not the enemy, whose frustration is compounded eternally knowing that Jesus’ death redeems souls from sin and its punishment, and who at the cross is not paid but actually shamed (Col. 2:15), and not satisfied but actually defeated (Heb. 2:14-15).
No, at the cross, the sinless Jesus has taken the punishment owed by the Father to the sinful rebels against His holiness (Isaiah 53:4-5). The wrath of God has been satisfied at the cross of Christ (Col. 1:20). It is the Father who in holy love sends His Son to make the payment that removes his holy wrath from the children of God (1 John 4:10; John 3:36). The Father has been propitiated. Similarly, then, Christ has paid the ransom to the only one who truly holds life and death in His hands—God Himself.
Christ Pays the Ransom, But To Whom?
In the beautiful irony of the gospel, we are effectively saved from God by God.
www.thegospelcoalition.org
Johann.
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
no immediate scripture however, I think it took God to give his life to convince us, if not the inhabitants of the Universe, the nature of his love. In other words, he paid the ransom to us.
Johann
Well-Known Member
A Covenantal View of Atonement
Embedded in the text of Romans, Galatians, Hebrews and other New Testament writings is an amazing concept of divine justice that has not found its way into the mainstream Christian theology of atonement. Yet it does more to explain the question: “Why did Jesus have to die?” than any of the...
www.logos.com
If you are interested-you can open the link-and this is my personal opinion-I don't believe Jesus paid the ransom to Satan or to us-everything was done "in our stead" "in our behalf"-to the Father.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Shalom brother.
Johann.
Johann
Well-Known Member
A Good Question:
Whom Exactly Does Jesus Pay The Ransom to? Pt. 1
Sam Shamoun
Leading taqiyyist and Christophobe Paul Bilal Williams links to a youtube clip where another preeminent Muslim taqiyyist, Shabir Ally, raised some challenges to Dr. David W. Shenk concerning the death of Christ. After citing Mark 10:45 where Jesus says that he, the Son of Man, has come to give his life as a ransom for many, Ally asked:
“To whom is the ransom paid? Now if he paid the ransom to God in order to set us free, then God looks like a despotic ruler who takes the blood of his Son in order to let us go free, whereas he could have done that anyway.”
Ally also stated:
“If the ransom is paid to the devil, that shows that the devil is on equal bargaining terms with God, because here he can claim the very Son of God in order to let us go free as God wants.”
A little later in the same clip, Ally made the following comment in one of his debates with Christian apologist Jay Smith as he distorted the meaning of Jesus’ parable concerning the prodigal son found in Luke 15:11-32:
“Nobody has to die for somebody to be forgiven, because if somebody dies there is no forgiveness. You know, that means I just took my full price, I am a cruel judge and just exact the full punishment, somebody goes and dies, and then I am happy. But if God was loving and kind, he should be loving and kind to his Son as well, and save his Son by some other means.”
The answer to Ally’s questions is rather simple.
The holy Scriptures are explicitly clear that the Lord Jesus Christ voluntarily offered himself to God the Father, not to Satan, in order to placate the holy indignation of the Triune Godhead against the sins committed against the Father, Son and Holy Spirit:
“And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice TO GOD.” Ephesians 5:2
“how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish TO GOD, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.” Hebrews 9:14
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have One who speaks TO THE FATHER in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the propitiatory sacrifice who turns aside God’s wrath, taking away our sins (hilasmos), and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1-2
Christ’s ransom was offered to the Father who received it on behalf of the entire Godhead so that God could then forgive and release sinners from their bondage to the dominion of sin and Satan, without having to compromise his perfect standards of justice and holiness in order to do so:
“Jesus replied, ‘Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:34-36
“And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” 2 Timothy 2:24-26
“But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. He says, ‘I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.’ And again, ‘I will put my trust in him.’ And again he says, ‘Here am I, and the children God has given me.’ Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement to turn aside God’s wrath, taking away (hilaskesthai) the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.” Hebrews 2:9-18
Christ’s vicarious death demonstrates that God is a perfectly righteous and holy Being who cannot simply overlook sin, since to do so would mean that God is less than completely just:
“God presented Him as a propitiation, as a sacrifice of atonement, in order to turn aside God’s wrath, taking away sin (hilasterion), through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.” Romans 3:25-26
Here is another link brother-I don't want to flood your thread.
Johann.
Whom Exactly Does Jesus Pay The Ransom to? Pt. 1
Sam Shamoun
Leading taqiyyist and Christophobe Paul Bilal Williams links to a youtube clip where another preeminent Muslim taqiyyist, Shabir Ally, raised some challenges to Dr. David W. Shenk concerning the death of Christ. After citing Mark 10:45 where Jesus says that he, the Son of Man, has come to give his life as a ransom for many, Ally asked:
“To whom is the ransom paid? Now if he paid the ransom to God in order to set us free, then God looks like a despotic ruler who takes the blood of his Son in order to let us go free, whereas he could have done that anyway.”
Ally also stated:
“If the ransom is paid to the devil, that shows that the devil is on equal bargaining terms with God, because here he can claim the very Son of God in order to let us go free as God wants.”
A little later in the same clip, Ally made the following comment in one of his debates with Christian apologist Jay Smith as he distorted the meaning of Jesus’ parable concerning the prodigal son found in Luke 15:11-32:
“Nobody has to die for somebody to be forgiven, because if somebody dies there is no forgiveness. You know, that means I just took my full price, I am a cruel judge and just exact the full punishment, somebody goes and dies, and then I am happy. But if God was loving and kind, he should be loving and kind to his Son as well, and save his Son by some other means.”
The answer to Ally’s questions is rather simple.
The holy Scriptures are explicitly clear that the Lord Jesus Christ voluntarily offered himself to God the Father, not to Satan, in order to placate the holy indignation of the Triune Godhead against the sins committed against the Father, Son and Holy Spirit:
“And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice TO GOD.” Ephesians 5:2
“how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish TO GOD, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.” Hebrews 9:14
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have One who speaks TO THE FATHER in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the propitiatory sacrifice who turns aside God’s wrath, taking away our sins (hilasmos), and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:1-2
Christ’s ransom was offered to the Father who received it on behalf of the entire Godhead so that God could then forgive and release sinners from their bondage to the dominion of sin and Satan, without having to compromise his perfect standards of justice and holiness in order to do so:
“Jesus replied, ‘Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” John 8:34-36
“And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” 2 Timothy 2:24-26
“But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. He says, ‘I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters; in the assembly I will sing your praises.’ And again, ‘I will put my trust in him.’ And again he says, ‘Here am I, and the children God has given me.’ Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement to turn aside God’s wrath, taking away (hilaskesthai) the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.” Hebrews 2:9-18
Christ’s vicarious death demonstrates that God is a perfectly righteous and holy Being who cannot simply overlook sin, since to do so would mean that God is less than completely just:
“God presented Him as a propitiation, as a sacrifice of atonement, in order to turn aside God’s wrath, taking away sin (hilasterion), through faith in His blood, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His restraint God passed over the sins previously committed. God presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and declare righteous the one who has faith in Jesus.” Romans 3:25-26
Here is another link brother-I don't want to flood your thread.
Johann.
face2face
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And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Do you why he refused this gesture?
Are you really implying that Jesus wasn't good??? Guess you don't know that Jesus was sinless!
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
John the Baptist said that Jesus came to take away the sins of the WORLD.
That means EVERYONE!
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
That means EVERYONE!
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
And that is conditional upon believing. You keep trying to drag everyone in the Kingdom of God but most won't make it. Jesus said so. Do you really want to be accountable for leading people to Hell?
Mk 16 He that believeth not shall be DAMNED!
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Johann
Well-Known Member
What do you think-the price was paid to us @quietthinker-or to God?
Let's have a friendly discussion.
I'm getting kinda lonely here-looking for threads that are without contention.
Johann.
Justice is not a "who" Justice is a what.
God demanded Justice. Adam paid the price for his sin, which was death, but in order to redeem Adam, Justice demanded a ransom, a life for a life. Adam brought sin and death to the world, Jesus brought life and redemption.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
According to Jesus-Matt 7:21--Those living now to do his Fathers will get to enter his kingdom( be saved)--As well Jesus teaches--John 17:3-This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Jesus Christ--So one HAS to know the Father as THE ONLY TRUE GOD to get eternal life--the rest are being mislead. As well its clear in that teaching--The ONLY TRUE GOD did not come down here, he sent another named Jesus as a mortal--You see it takes believing Jesus over men with white collars who are misleading all who listen to them, to not enter Gods kingdom. This is Jesus; Fathers will--This is my son the beloved in whom i am well pleased-LISTEN TO HIM.
Keiw
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Death was promised if they ate the forbidden fruit. it wasn't a demand.
I don't see where God demanded anything from Adam
Have you considered that your idea of Justice is an overlay on God?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I think it was paid to us.
Gods character was so obscured by the evil one, it was only by giving his life ie, tortured to death without pay back but rather forgiving his torturers so that it was possible for people to see the character of God.
If it was death that God required he could have died in Gethsemane or even in Herod's onslaught when he was a babe.
God was pushed to the limit of endurance at Calvary. He could at any time have reversed the situation, but no, He let men and demons do their utmost ...and yet he was faithful to the character of God. He never reviled for being reviled......instead he forgave.
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Yes, justice demanded that if Adam sinned, he would die, and dying he did. How ever justice demanded that if Adam and all those in his loins (the world of mankind) would live again, a ransom would need to be provided to redeem Adam, that came in the person of the "man Christ Jesus".
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
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