quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Have you forgotten your posts #193 and #198?I never said he demanded justice FROM Adam.
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Have you forgotten your posts #193 and #198?I never said he demanded justice FROM Adam.
No, I haven't forgotten. There's NOTHING in my comments there that say God demanded justice from Adam.Have you forgotten your posts #193 and #198?
So what is Justice from your point of view? and if you say he didn't demand it from Adam, you'll need to explain to me the connection you make between ransom and justice?No, I haven't forgotten. There's NOTHING in my comments there that say God demanded justice from Adam.
There is no "entitlement" in salvation. Only those who obey the Gospel, and repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, are saved. And many will not be saved. Also there will be no Paradise on earth.
Hello RR. You are correct. But to conform such that the sins of the father are not passed on to the son, it should be understood that Adam's fall resulted in a cherub guard denying all to the tree of life.The reason everyone is born in sin and dies is because of Adam. Rom 5:12 says, “…just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned-.” (NWT). When Adam disobeyed, he lost his right to live and he lost his family’s right to live.
The covenant of Moses was fullfiled by Jesus' life and mission. The life for a life is from Noahide covenant. Jesus' death fulfilled that covenantUnder Moses’ Law, justice demanded “a life for a life.” This was God’s perfect law. If a man killed someone, he must pay with his own life: a life for a life. (Exodus 21:23-25; Deuteronomy 19:21). Jehovah solved the problem by satisfying justice with the Ransom price of Jesus perfect human life paid for Adam’s lost perfect human life.
Hear, hearThe Apostle Paul uses the Greek word anti-lutron, signifying, “a corresponding price,” saying, “The man, Christ Jesus, gave himself a ransom [anti-lutron—corresponding price] for all, to be testified in due time.” 1 Tim. 2:6. The Greek word lutroo is rendered “redeemed.” Prof. Young defines lutroo to signify “to loose by a price”—that is, to set free by the payment of a price. The basis or root of this word is lutron, which, as noted above with anti, used either as a prefix or a suffix, signifies a corresponding price.
Put in simple terms, Ransom means that something was lost and that you have to pay something of equal value to get it back.
As Jesus was sinless, he can not be punished for sin. Rather his death fulfilled the covenants and his name became higher than the angels. Now, Jesus can command the tree of life be given to his wayward brothers. The cherub will let us thru on the advocacy of Jesus.Salvation comes by substitutionary atonement. One man, Jesus Christ, died for one man, Adam, so that Adam and all his posterity might live. The Apostle Paul outlines this concept of substitutionary atonement in two passages:
“For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” Corinthians 15:21, 22“But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.” Rom. 5:15
Since the first man, Adam, was a perfect human being, it follows that Jesus, as a corresponding price, must also be a perfect human being and that the resultant life for Adam’s posterity must be perfect human life.
As Adam, through disobedience, forfeited his life, so Jesus, by his death, as a corresponding price, paid a full and exact offset for Father Adam’s life, and in consequence for all Adam’s posterity—every human soul—sharers in his fall and in his loss. With Adam redeemed, all his posterity are entitled to a resurrection from the dead to human perfection and a trial for life under the favorable conditions of Paradise Earth.
Until Jesus came, no human man could provide that Ransom price, because they were all sinners. No one was the perfect human equivalent of Adam.
Psalms 49:7 (NASV) “No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him”
Romans 3:10 (NKJV) “There is none righteous, no, not one”
Job spoke prophetically of Jesus Ransoming mankind and resulting in their restoration back to life and youth.
Job 33:23-25 (NASV) 23 “If there is an angel as mediator for him, One out of a thousand, To remind a man what is right for him, 24 Then let him be gracious to him, and say, ‘Deliver him from going down to the pit, I have found a ransom’; 25 Let his flesh become fresher than in youth, Let him return to the days of his youthful vigor”
Only those who obey the Gospel, and repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, are saved.
HIGHLY conditional upon believing! If everyone is going to be saved then why all the warnings in the NT? You may be leading people to Hell!Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people.
1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe.
This is one of those times when “ALL” doesn’t mean “ALL” as in “everyone”……it can’t be everyone because those whom Jesus judges as “goats” will go into the lake of fire, where the devil and his minions will eventually end up. (Matt 25:41-46)Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people.
1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe.
This is one of those times when “ALL” doesn’t mean “ALL” as in “everyone”
Those who will be saved are those who know who God is, and who obey all the teachings of his son...
In context, Paul’s words indicate that “training ourselves for godliness“ requires that we “toil and strive BECAUSE we have our hope set on the living God who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe”…..Rather train yourself for godliness; 8 for while bodily training is of some value, godliness is of value in every way, as it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come. 9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. 10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
I do not believe in “damnation” or “hell” as Christendom teaches these things.I believe that faithful Christians are indeed saved from judgment, damnation, and Hell. However, I also believe that nobody remains in Hell forever and that, eventually, ALL those in Hell will repent and also become faithful followers of Christ.
Yes, “the world” of faithful mankind will be saved. Only those who live their faith will inherit everlasting life. Repentance is a pre-requisite, but it has to be done before the judgment. Unrepentant ones have had ample time to get to know God and his son, so there will be no arguments or justifications when Jesus comes to hold the world to an accounting. (Heb 4:11-13)Here's another. Jesus is the savior of the WORLD. I do believe that Jesus sends people to Hell, but it's for their benefit so that they can repent, be cleansed and join the rest of us in the kingdom. Otherwise, Jesus is NOT the "savior of the world".
Again, this is the world (“cosmos”) of mankind…..no matter where they live in this world, all have the opportunity to get to know God and his son, but not all will put in the effort…to “toil and strive” so that Jesus will recognize them as his own. There will be no excuses accepted. (Matt 7:21-23) Rejection will mean no inheritance in the Kingdom.1 John 4:14 ESV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
What you believe is Satanic myth.I believe that faithful Christians are indeed saved from judgment, damnation, and Hell. However, I also believe that nobody remains in Hell forever and that, eventually, ALL those in Hell will repent and also become faithful followers of Christ.
It does mean ALL just as it says. So what do we do with those headed for the lake of fire which ultimately means death?This is one of those times when “ALL” doesn’t mean “ALL” as in “everyone”……it can’t be everyone because those whom Jesus judges as “goats” will go into the lake of fire, where the devil and his minions will eventually end up. (Matt 25:41-46)
Being “saved” from that outcome is why Jesus gave his life, in exchange for ours. Most people don’t even know what they are being “saved” from….God’s wrath on unbelievers…..and pseudo “Christians”. (Matt 7:21-23)
Those who will be saved are those who know who God is, and who obey all the teachings of his son…..they know why he sent his son to give his life for his faithful followers…..and what future he intends to bring about for those who inherited sin and death because of Adam’s sin, through no fault on their part.
In context, Paul’s words indicate that “training ourselves for godliness“ requires that we “toil and strive BECAUSE we have our hope set on the living God who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe”…..
Those who fail to “toil and strive” in “training themselves for godliness” have not set their heart on the living God, and will therefore NOT be saved.
I do not believe in “damnation” or “hell” as Christendom teaches these things.
The ones Jesus judges as “goats” will be cast into the lake of fire (gehenna) which is called “the second death”….unlike the first death, (inherited from the sin of Adam, Rom 5:12) humankind who experience the second death will never see life again. There is no coming back from eternal death.
Jesus said….”And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”
“Gehenna” is a place where souls are “destroyed” not tortured.
Yes, “the world” of faithful mankind will be saved. Only those who live their faith will inherit everlasting life. Repentance is a pre-requisite, but it has to be done before the judgment. Unrepentant ones have had ample time to get to know God and his son, so there will be no arguments or justifications when Jesus comes to hold the world to an accounting. (Heb 4:11-13)
Again, this is the world (“cosmos”) of mankind…..no matter where they live in this world, all have the opportunity to get to know God and his son, but not all will put in the effort…to “toil and strive” so that Jesus will recognize them as his own. There will be no excuses accepted. (Matt 7:21-23) Rejection will mean no inheritance in the Kingdom.
That is entirely your choice my friend.....we are all left to make our own decisions about what we believe is true.I appreciate your perspectives, my sister, but I do not share them.
That is entirely your choice my friend.....we are all left to make our own decisions about what we believe is true.
Paul said that Jesus is the savior of ALL people.
But the verse does not say that All are saved.