I also am choosing to NOT RESPOND TO YOU FURTHER on this matter!
Who did Jesus Die a Ransom for?
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face2face
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A Form of godliness
In your blindness, you are misunderstanding the two reasons why Jesus is the Lamb OF God. Becareful that you don't settle for your own form of godliness, for in doing so, you will have denied the only vehicle for your salvation. Yes, this is the issue with importing man made creed doctrines from...
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#237
Thank you, I'll go read it now!A Form of godliness
In your blindness, you are misunderstanding the two reasons why Jesus is the Lamb OF God. Becareful that you don't settle for your own form of godliness, for in doing so, you will have denied the only vehicle for your salvation. Yes, this is the issue with importing man made creed doctrines from...
#237
Johann
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Johann
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Johann
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Johann
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Right here in the open-ironically the one in error is you.
Johann.
Johann
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Johann
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I don't need anyone to defend me brother-you are in error, plain and simple.
J.
Aunty Jane
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As we have discussed before, what is written is not the issue Johann.....it’s how those writings are interpreted....and what ideas colour those interpretations. How much of what is passed off as “Christian” doctrine is actually man made?....adopted from pagan ideas like lost puppies?
Jesus warned us that the “weeds” would be sown by the devil and that they would “grow” in the world along with the true Christians who were always treated as apostates by those who were the actual apostates? This is exactly what happened to Judaism.....history is repeating and we are in the same position as those in the first century who needed to separate from a corrupted and divided religious system. Only today the divisions are in the thousands. How much confusion does that create?
According to Jesus, what goes into Gehenna is “destroyed”, not tortured or tormented in any literal sense. (Matt 10:28)
So who do we believe? Nothing alive ever went into Gehenna and this “lake of fire” is the place “prepared for the devil and his angels”
“Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. . . . .These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.” (Matt 25:41, 46) So in keeping with what Jesus has said “everlasting cutting off” means being eliminated from existence.....”destroyed”.
Not a single law of God carried a penalty that involved fire or torture. This is completely against Jehovah’s personality as he said in Jeremiah 7:30-32....
“For the sons of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘They have set their disgusting things in the house upon which my name has been called, in order to defile it. 31 And they have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.’”
So again, are we seeing in figurative language (as is used in Revelation) something literal that the Bible does not teach?....and what is more, something that is alien to the personality of the Creator?
Johann
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@Aunty Jane you keep on mentioning how the Jewish rabbis viewed the afterlife etc. and I hear you, believe me, I do-what Jewish resources/sources are you using?
In Kabbalah the four meanings of the biblical texts are literal, allusive, allegorical, and mystical.
So I am familiar with the Jewish mindset and interpretation of Scripture-having on my computer various rabbinical writings, customs, cultures, folklore etc.
As I have explained to @rockytopva, everyone seems to be an "expert" on eschatology but how sure are you that you have it right?
To this day there is a controversy on the "explanation" of Revelation, and we have many "scholars" here who claim they have it right, right?
Is the "parable" of Dives really a parable? How are we to read Scriptures? Literally-and some allegorically-mystically-a Pardes, Sod, Remesh?
Where do we draw the line and approach Scripture as it stands written-instead of being so dogmatic?
Don't take this personally
Johann.
So, ask her if Jesus is God. You might want to brace yourself for a JW smokescreen.
Johann
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Aunty Jane
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The only Jewish sources that matter.....the scriptures in Hebrew themselves, that tell us what God told his nation, whom he chose to bring the Messiah into the world.
Since for the sake of other readers, Kabbalah is “Jewish mysticism” or “an umbrella term which covers a range of theories regarding the Godhead, as well as practices and beliefs extending beyond the requirements of standard Judaism. The term Kabbalah refers to a particular variety of Jewish mysticism, which first emerged in the 12th-century CE in Provence and Catalonia.” (Google search)
I have no time for the thoughts and musings of humans especially not the forms of Jewish belief that, like Christendom, developed over time to become a complete corruption of all that scripture teaches us.
My studies span over 50 years and I am not one to be led by what is popular, if I find through my own research that these popular beliefs, though held by the majority, find no real support in the Bible. And if they depart from its overall theme, which is the Kingdom of God...its purpose, the sacrifice of the man Jesus Christ and how that relates to the kingdom he preached, and what all that will accomplish as the will of God to fulfill Isaiah 55:11.....that is what counts with me, as one who was raised in Christendom.
If we cannot see that “big picture” clearly, then we will be ripe for adopting the the thoughts of the men whom we allow to influence us.
True Christians have an accurate understanding, because God said they would in this “time of the end”.
Daniel 12:4, 9-10...KJV.
“4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.. . . .
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand”.
So who are the “wise” who will “understand” from an ‘increase in knowledge’? It will be the ones drawn by the Father. (John 6:44, 65)
The “wicked” will be those still trying to promote what the Bible never taught.
Yes it is a parable because, taken literally it is ridiculous! Jesus never promoted the idea of life after death, he taught about and demonstrated “resurrection”. (John 5:28-29; John 11:11-14)
This is a parable about the Pharisees (rich man) and Lazarus (an impoverished beggar, who pictured the “lost sheep”) They died symbolically with regard to their standing with God.....changing places. “The bosom of Abraham” was a position of favor and the Pharisees lost it due to their rejection of Jesus as Messiah. The beggar gained a favourited standing with God because these “lost” ones accepted Jesus and became his disciples.
We have to believe what is true.....it’s as simple as that. Since ‘no one can come to the Father except through Jesus’, and ‘no one can come to Jesus without being drawn by the Father’, we can see that it is God who chooses us as much as think we choose him.
The truth will be clear as crystal to those to whom God has revealed it. The “wheat” are in the world and we have to find them in spite of the “weeds”...and feed at their table. (Matt 24:45)
We don’t do it alone.
I never do.....Eccl 7:8-9.
Johann
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Here I won't disagree-the elect, remnant, few-we are chosen by God.
One question.
Do you hold that Messiah is God?
Here I disagree-but you have a preconceived mindset no matter what Scriptures I give you and what the rabbis are saying.
if, as you say, we all have epignosis on what stands written, then why all the disagreements?
Are you saying there is nothing more to learn from Scripture? Everything is illuminated and revealed to you?
Is it possible that through the years of studying, you hold that you are correct-and if I am in disagreement with you-I am the one in error sister?
Johann
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I have learned a lot from ancient rabbinical writings and have discernment to discern error from truth.
Thanks for sharing.
Johann.
Johann
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THE DEAD, WHERE ARE THEY? (SHEOL/HADES, GEHENNA, TARTARUS)
I. Old Testament
A. All humans go to Sheol (there are no cognate roots and the etymology is uncertain, BDB 982, KB 1368), which was a way of referring to the place where the dead live or the grave, mostly in Wisdom Literature and Isaiah. In the OT it was a shadowy, conscious, but joyless existence (cf. Job 10:21-22; 38:17)
B. Sheol characterized
1. associated with God's judgment (fire), Deut. 32:22
2. a prison with gates, Job 38:17; Ps. 9:13; 107:18
3. a land of no return, Job 7:9 (an Akkadian title for death)
4. a land/realm of darkness, Job 10:21-22; 17:13; 18:18
5. a place of silence, Ps. 28:1; 31:17; 94:17; 115:17; Isa. 47:5
6. associated with punishment even before Judgment Day, Ps. 18:4-5
7. associated with abaddon, in which God is also present, Job 26:6; Ps. 139:8; Amos 9:2
8. associated with "the Pit" (grave), Ps.16:10; 88:3-4; Isa. 14:15; Ezek. 31:15-17
9. wicked descend alive into Sheol, Num. 16:30,33; Job 7:9; Ps. 55:15
10. personified often as an animal with a large mouth, Num. 16:30; Pro. 1:12; Isa. 5:14; Hab. 2:5
11. people there called Repha'im (i.e., "spirits of the dead"), Job 26:5; Pro. 2:18; 21:16; 26:14 Isa. 14:9-11)
12. however, YHWH is present even here, Job 26:6; Ps. 139:8; Pro. 15:11
II. New Testament
A. The Hebrew Sheol is translated by the Greek Hades (the unseen world)
B. Hades characterized (much like Sheol)
1. refers to death, Matt. 16:18
2. linked to death, Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13-14
3. often analogous to the place of permanent punishment (Gehenna), Matt. 11:23 (OT quote); Luke 10:15; 16:23-24
4. often analogous to the grave, Luke 16:23
C. Possibly divided (rabbis)
1. righteous part called Paradise (really another name for heaven, cf. 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7), Luke 23:43
2. wicked part called Tartarus, a holding place far below Hades, 2 Peter 2:4, where it is a holding place for evil angels (cf. Genesis 6; I Enoch). It is associated with the "Abyss," Luke 8:31; Rom. 10:7; Rev. 9:1-2,11; 11:7; 17:18; 20:1,3
D. Gehenna
1. Reflects the OT phrase, "the valley of the sons of Hinnom," (south of Jerusalem). It was the place where the Phoenician fire god, Molech (BDB 574, KB 591), was worshiped by child sacrifice (cf. 2 Kgs. 16:3; 21:6; 2 Chr. 28:3; 33:6), which was forbidden in Lev. 18:21; 20:2-5.
2. Jeremiah changed it from a place of pagan worship into a site of YHWH's judgment (cf. Jer. 7:32; 19:6-7). It became the place of fiery, eternal judgment in I Enoch 90:26-27 and Sib. 1:103.
3. The Jews of Jesus' day were so appalled by their ancestors' participation in pagan worship by child sacrifice, that they turned this area into the garbage dump for Jerusalem. Many of Jesus' metaphors for eternal judgment came from this landfill (fire, smoke, worms, stench, cf. Mark 9:44,46). The term Gehenna is used only by Jesus (except in James 3:6).
4. Jesus' usage of Gehenna
a. fire, Matt. 5:22; 18:9; Mark 9:43
b. permanent, Mark 9:48 (Matt. 25:46)
c. place of destruction (both soul and body), Matt. 10:28
d. paralleled to Sheol, Matt. 5:29-30; 18:9
e. characterizes the wicked as "son of hell," Matt. 23:15
f. result of judicial sentence, Matt. 23:33; Luke 12:5
g. the concept of Gehenna is parallel to the second death (cf. Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14) or the lake of fire (cf. Matt. 13:42,50; Rev. 19:20; 20:10,14-15; 21:8). It is possible the lake of fire becomes the permanent dwelling place of humans (from Sheol) and evil angels (from Tartarus, 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6 or the abyss, cf. Luke 8:31; Rev. 9:1-11; 20:1,3).
h. it was not designed for humans, but for Satan and his angels, Matt. 25:41
E. It is possible, because of the overlap of Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna that
1. originally all humans went to Sheol/Hades
2. their experience there (good/bad) is exacerbated after Judgment Day, but the place of the wicked remains the same (this is why the KJV translated hades (grave) as gehenna (hell).
3. the only NT text to mention torment before Judgment is the parable of Luke 16:19-31 (Lazarus and the Rich Man). Sheol is also described as a place of punishment now (cf. Deut. 32:22; Ps. 18:1-5). However, one cannot establish a doctrine on a parable.
III. Intermediate state between death and resurrection
A. The NT does not teach the "immortality of the soul," which is one of several ancient views of the after life, which asserts that
1. human souls exist before their physical life
2. human souls are eternal before and after physical death
3. often the physical body is seen as a prison and death as release back to pre-existent state
B. The NT hints at a disembodied state between death and resurrection
1. Jesus speaks of a division between body and soul, Matt. 10:28
2. Abraham may already have a body, Mark 12:26-27; Luke 16:23
3. Moses and Elijah have a physical body at the transfiguration, Matthew 17
4. Paul asserts that at the Second Coming the believers with Christ will get their new bodies first, 1 Thess. 4:13-18
5. Paul asserts that believers get their new spiritual bodies on Resurrection Day, 1 Cor. 15:23,52
6. Paul asserts that believers do not go to Hades, but at death are with Jesus, 2 Cor. 5:6,8; Phil. 1:23. Jesus overcame death and took the righteous to heaven with Him, 1 Pet. 3:18-22.
IV. Heaven
A. This term is used in three senses in the Bible.
1. the atmosphere above the earth, Gen. 1:1,8; Isa. 42:5; 45:18
2. the starry heavens, Gen. 1:14; Deut. 10:14; Ps. 148:4; Heb. 4:14; 7:26
3. the place of God's throne, Deut. 10:14; 1 Kgs. 8:27; Ps. 148:4; Eph. 4:10; Heb. 9:24 (third heaven, 2 Cor. 12:2)
B. The Bible does not reveal much about the afterlife, probably because fallen humans have no way or capacity to understand (cf. 1 Cor. 2:9).
C. Heaven is both a place (cf. John 14:2-3) and a person (cf. 2 Cor. 5:6,8). Heaven may be a restored Garden of Eden (Genesis 1-2; Revelation 21-22). The earth will be cleansed and restored (cf. Acts 3:21; Rom. 8:21; 2 Pet. 3:10). The image of God (Gen. 1:26-27) is restored in Christ. Now the intimate fellowship of the Garden of Eden is possible again.
However, this may be metaphorical (heaven as a huge, cubed city of Rev. 21:9-27) and not literal. 1 Corinthians 15 describes the difference between the physical body and the spiritual body as the seed to the mature plant. Again, 1 Cor. 2:9 (a quote from Isa. 64:4 and 65:17) is a great promise and hope! I know that when we see Him we will be like Him (cf. 1 John 3:2).
V. Helpful resources
A. William Hendriksen, The Bible On the Life Hereafter
B. Maurice Rawlings, Beyond Death's Door
There's a lot I want to add-but I know you will disagree.
Johann.
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