Who did Jesus Die a Ransom for?

[Aunty Jane]

Here I won't disagree-the elect, remnant, few-we are chosen by God.

The elect have a special role that requires them to have a separate resurrection to the majority of mankind. It is a "first resurrection" because it is first in time and in importance. (Rev 20:6) The Kingdom, (with its rulers and priests) has to be ready to take over the rulership of the earth once Jesus and his angelic forces have cleansed it of all wickedness.
Daniel saw the destruction of those rulerships in Dan 2:44, crushing them out of existence and God's Kingdom replacing them as man's only governing body.

One question.
Do you hold that Messiah is God?

That is a loaded question so I will answer it as I can from scripture.
When John recorded his words at John 1:1, in the Greek, only one "theos" is "ho theos" ("the god" or the one nameless God of the Jews with no upper or lower case to distinguish them)......the other (the Word who was "with" ho theos) was simply called "theos" without the definite article. (which was the only way to identify Jehovah, who at that time did not have a name that was permitted utterance.)
It also speaks about "the beginning", which as an eternal entity, Jehovah did not have, but Jesus did. (Rev 3:14)

John 1:1 Mounce Interlinear....
"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

According to Strongs, "theos" has the primary meaning of...."a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities", so having said that, we believe that Jesus was the divine "son of God" but not that he was God incarnate. He is "a god" or "divine one" having been divinely produced and given divine authority by his superior Father. (Matthew 28:18) Those who tell you we do not believe that Jesus is "God (capital "G") are correct, but we do believe that he like God in every respect....a faithful "holy servant" of his God and Father. (Acts 4:27)
He never had to be "God" to pay for what Adam did....he couldn't, because he is an immortal who cannot die.

Here I disagree-but you have a preconceived mindset no matter what Scriptures I give you and what the rabbis are saying.

As do all the posters here......we can't all be right though, can we? But some of us might be...Jesus knows, and as the judge of all of us, we can thank God that he is not fooled by the pretensions of men. It is our hearts that condemn us because it rejects simple truths in favor of difficult falsehoods....the ancient lies replacing the revealed truths....once you learn that the foundations for all of Christendom's beliefs are made of matchsticks, its easy to see a huge collapse coming.....a "house divided against itself, cannot stand".

if, as you say, we all have epignosis on what stands written, then why all the disagreements?

We don't all have 'epignosis' and that is the point.....if we exist in a world of "weeds" it helps to know what those weeds were when Jesus gave his illustration about them. It is believed to be a noxious weed called "bearded darnel"....its interesting to do a little research on it as in the Middle east it is actually called "wheat's evil twin".

Are you saying there is nothing more to learn from Scripture? Everything is illuminated and revealed to you?

Absolutely not.....but what I know, I know without doubt. If you are not confident in what you believe, what is the point of believing? You are merely hoping that what you believe is true. That is not Faith.
James 1:5-8...
"So if any one of you is lacking in wisdom, let him keep asking God, for he gives generously to all and without reproaching, and it will be given him. 6 But let him keep asking in faith, not doubting at all, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, that man should not expect to receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.".

Is it possible that through the years of studying, you hold that you are correct-and if I am in disagreement with you-I am the one in error sister?

Again, what I have learned is in harmony with the entirety of scripture, taking into account the Jewish mindset of the Christian Bible writers, who were not influenced by the Pharisees but by Jesus. Nothing I believe has contradictions that are unexplainable.

Jesus knew full well that the Pharisees were way off course, but he was not sent to them because they could not be swayed from their traditions, which were apparently stronger to them than God's word. He was sent to the "lost sheep" and so are we.....the message is not forced, but simply offered, as Jesus offered it in the first century....and as he taught his disciples to offer it. (Matt 10:11-14)

We are to "shake the dust off" if the message is rejected.....(Matt 10:11-14)

 

[Jack]

Clear enough, Aunty rejects Jesus God because Kingdom Hall told her so.

 

[Aunty Jane]

All humans go to Sheol (there are no cognate roots and the etymology is uncertain, BDB 982, KB 1368), which was a way of referring to the place where the dead live or the grave, mostly in Wisdom Literature and Isaiah. In the OT it was a shadowy, conscious, but joyless existence (cf. Job 10:21-22; 38:17)

The ancient Jews were not taught that the dead live on after the body dies....that was a foreign concept introduced much later. The Israelites were warned not to adopt the teachings of pagan religions, and yet they kept on doing it. (Deut 18:9-12)

Sheol was simply "the grave" as the Tanakh translates "sheol". It was a place of unconsciousness, where everyone went and the only hope their scripture held out was a resurrection.....a restoration of life...not a continuation of it.

This Hebrew word sheʼohlʹ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.” Any wonder there is confusion about what it is.....

Eccl 9:5, 10.....CJB

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

הכִּ֧י הַֽחַיִּ֛ים יֽוֹדְעִ֖ים שֶׁיָּמֻ֑תוּ וְהַמֵּתִ֞ים אֵינָ֧ם יֽוֹדְעִ֣ים מְא֗וּמָה וְאֵֽין־ע֤וֹד לָהֶם֙ שָׂכָ֔ר כִּ֥י נִשְׁכַּ֖ח זִכְרָֽם:

Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going.

יכֹּ֠ל אֲשֶׁ֨ר תִּמְצָ֧א יָֽדְךָ֛ לַֽעֲשׂ֥וֹת בְּכֹֽחֲךָ֖ עֲשֵׂ֑ה כִּי֩ אֵ֨ין מַֽעֲשֶׂ֤ה וְחֶשְׁבּוֹן֙ וְדַ֣עַת וְחָכְמָ֔ה בִּשְׁא֕וֹל אֲשֶׁ֥ר אַתָּ֖ה הֹלֵ֥ךְ שָֽׁמָּה:

 

[Jack]

The ancient Jews were not taught that the dead live on after the body dies....that was a foreign concept introduced much later. The Israelites were warned not to adopt the teachings of pagan religions, and yet they kept on doing it. (Deut 18:9-12)

Sheol was simply "the grave" as the Tanakh translates "sheol". It was a place of unconsciousness, where everyone went and the only hope their scripture held out was a resurrection.....a restoration of life...not a continuation of it.

This Hebrew word sheʼohlʹ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.” Any wonder there is confusion about what it is.....

Eccl 9:5, 10.....CJB

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

הכִּ֧י הַֽחַיִּ֛ים יֽוֹדְעִ֖ים שֶׁיָּמֻ֑תוּ וְהַמֵּתִ֞ים אֵינָ֧ם יֽוֹדְעִ֣ים מְא֗וּמָה וְאֵֽין־ע֤וֹד לָהֶם֙ שָׂכָ֔ר כִּ֥י נִשְׁכַּ֖ח זִכְרָֽם:

Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going.

יכֹּ֠ל אֲשֶׁ֨ר תִּמְצָ֧א יָֽדְךָ֛ לַֽעֲשׂ֥וֹת בְּכֹֽחֲךָ֖ עֲשֵׂ֑ה כִּי֩ אֵ֨ין מַֽעֲשֶׂ֤ה וְחֶשְׁבּוֹן֙ וְדַ֣עַת וְחָכְמָ֔ה בִּשְׁא֕וֹל אֲשֶׁ֥ר אַתָּ֖ה הֹלֵ֥ךְ שָֽׁמָּה:

You're preaching the Bible languages to us but you don't even know what Jesus said?

Matthew 13
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Johann]

The ancient Jews were not taught that the dead live on after the body dies....that was a foreign concept introduced much later. The Israelites were warned not to adopt the teachings of pagan religions, and yet they kept on doing it. (Deut 18:9-12)

Ancient Jews like Rashi-since you go online using the CJB with Rashi's commentary-a huge disappointment to me-and you have been "indoctrinated" over 50 years using this CJB "Bible online" with the notes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

Here we read of them which sleep in Jesus. God will bring them with Him when the Lord Jesus descends. They are called “the dead in Christ.” They shall rise first. Are believers dead in Christ? They are alive in Christ. They have been made alive. Ephesians 2:1 and 5. They have received eternal life, the salvation of their souls. They have passed out of death into life. They have already been raised to walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4 and 5. They are risen with Christ. Christ is their life. Colossians 3:1 and 3. Christ is in them. The Holy Spirit is in them. They are under the control of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:2. They have been recreated. They are not dead. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead, except in the sense that David is dead according to Acts 13:36—“he fell asleep and saw corruption.” David’s body saw corruption, but not David’s soul. Therefore it was David’s body that fell asleep, not his soul. “David is not ascended into the heavens.” Those who are Christ’s at His coming will be made alive. This refers to the body. I Corinthians 15:21 to 24.

Note the story of the rich man and Lazarus, in Luke 16:19 to 31—“There was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores.” “And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom; the rich man also died, and was buried.” “And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” Luke 16:20, 22 and 23.

The soul-sleepers reject the generally accepted interpretation of Luke 16:19 to 31, which shows the consciousness of both the saved and unsaved, by declaring the story to be a parable with an entirely different meaning, but they are by no means agreed in their fantastic interpretation.

When asked concerning Christ’s statement to the dying thief, “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43), the soul-sleepers say the comma is in the wrong place. It should read. “I say unto you today, thou shalt (some day) be with Me in paradise.” But when they are referred to II Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23, they do some very queer juggling and twisting of the Word of God. Note these two verses:

“WE ARE CONFIDENT, I SAY, AND WILLING RATHER TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY, AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD.” “FOR I AM IN A STRAIT BETWIXT TWO, HAVING A DESIRE TO DEPART, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; WHICH IS FAR BETTER.”

The words “present with the Lord” literally mean “at home with the Lord.” This is very plain language. “Absent from the body”, “at home with the Lord.” In other words, when the saint puts off his tabernacle, he departs to be with the Lord, which is far better. This does not. mean that his soul goes into a coffin beneath the sod, where worms destroy his body. He departs to be with the Lord. He sets out to sea to be with Christ. “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

You are not very transparent @Aunty Jane and "selective reading" is the norm.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Absolutely not.....but what I know, I know without doubt. If you are not confident in what you believe, what is the point of believing? You are merely hoping that what you believe is true. That is not Faith.
James 1:5-8.

Ever considered the fact that what you THINK you know-after 50 years of studying-you might be wrong?

Are you still going to the Kingdom Hall @Aunty Jane? Going from door to door?
Johann.

 

[Jack]

One JW here actually tried to convince me that Jesus ceased to exist for 3 days.

 

[Johann]

One JW here actually tried to convince me that Jesus ceased to exist for 3 days.

Brother-we are in the end times-and we need the Holy Spirit to give us discernment to discern error from truth and to try/dokimazo the spirits.
Johann.

 

[Jack]

Brother-we are in the end times-and we need the Holy Spirit to give us discernment to discern error from truth and to try/dokimazo the spirits.
Johann.

Satan is on the rampage and uses 'Christianity' to deceive. Satan constantly attacks Jesus, God of the Bible and the "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned us about. Satan wants our company in Hell, "forever and ever"!

2 Corinthians 11
For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

 

[Johann]

Satan is on the rampage and uses 'Christianity' to deceive.

2 Corinthians 11
For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Amen-just remember there are some who hold to erroneous doctrines not Willfully but due to ignorance-does it make them, and myself, unborn? I am the first one that would say I don't know it all and in need of correction-are you of the same view and mindset-that you don't know it all?
Or are we here to impose what we "think" is truth and have a dogmatic worldview?
Something to reflect upon.
Johann.

 

[Jack]

Amen-just remember there are some who hold to erroneous doctrines not Willfully but due to ignorance-does it make them, and myself, unborn? I am the first one that would say I don't know it all and in need of correction-are you of the same view and mindset-that you don't know it all?
Or are we here to impose what we "think" is truth and have a dogmatic worldview?
Something to reflect upon.
Johann.

Thank God He will be totally fair in judging us! This world is in a Satanic MESS, but God is well able to sort it all out!

 

[Behold]

The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.” Any wonder there is confusion about what it is.....

יכֹּ֠

There are no born again in Hell.
There are no Christ Rejectors, never born again, in Heaven.

 

[Johann]

Thank God He will be totally fair in judging us!

We were discussing @Aunty Jane -you and I-and this was the Scripture quotation you gave me and this jolted me-that is when you said God will be "fair" in judging us.
False apostles (pseudapostoloi). From pseudēs, false, and apostolos. Paul apparently made this word (cf. Rev_2:2). In 2Co_11:26 we have pseudadelphos, a word of like formation (Gal_2:4). See also pseudochristoi and pseudoprophētai in Mar_13:22.

Deceitful (dolioi). Old word from dolos (lure, snare), only here in N.T. (cf. Rom_16:18).

Fashioning themselves (metaschēmatizomenoi). Present middle (direct) participle of the old verb metaschēmatizō for which see note on 1Co_4:6. Masquerading as apostles of Christ by putting on the outward habiliments, posing as ministers of Christ (“gentlemen of the cloth,” nothing but cloth). Paul plays with this verb in 2Co_11:13, 2Co_11:14, 2Co_11:15.
RWS

"For such men are false apostles" These out-of-town religious leaders, possibly from Jerusalem, claimed authority. Paul calls them pseudo-apostles and pseudo-brothers (cf. 2 Cor. 11:26).



"deceitful workers" This word is from the NOUN which meant "fishing bait." They tried to catch the Corinthian believers for their own purposes and to further their reputations.

"disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" These were not sincere Christians who were misled. These were spiritually lost men (cf. 2 Cor. 11:14) attempting to divide the church of God (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15). They were wolves in sheep's clothing (cf. Matthew 7; Acts 20:29; 2 Pet. 2:1-22; Jude 1:3-16).

The term "disguising" (i.e., metaschēmatizō) is used in 2 Cor. 11:13,14,15. It speaks of the outward changing form of something or someone (cf. Phil. 3:21). These (i.e., false teachers and Satan) appear to be what they are not!

11:14 "for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" This is an obvious truth, but is nowhere else in the Bible stated in these terms. This may be from rabbinical traditions about Genesis 3 (cf. DSS cave 1, Manual of Discipline 3:20,24). Satan's major trick is masquerading as truth (cf. Gen. 3). Evil always tries to mimic or counterfeit the good. False teachers always come from inside the church (cf. 2 Pet. 2; 1 John 2:18-19).

@Jack I don't want to get old and still have wrong doctrines or on a path that I think is right-but is not.
Shalom
Johann

 

[Jack]

We were discussing @Aunty Jane -you and I-and this was the Scripture quotation you gave me and this jolted me-that is when you said God will be "fair" in judging us.
False apostles (pseudapostoloi). From pseudēs, false, and apostolos. Paul apparently made this word (cf. Rev_2:2). In 2Co_11:26 we have pseudadelphos, a word of like formation (Gal_2:4). See also pseudochristoi and pseudoprophētai in Mar_13:22.

Deceitful (dolioi). Old word from dolos (lure, snare), only here in N.T. (cf. Rom_16:18).

Fashioning themselves (metaschēmatizomenoi). Present middle (direct) participle of the old verb metaschēmatizō for which see note on 1Co_4:6. Masquerading as apostles of Christ by putting on the outward habiliments, posing as ministers of Christ (“gentlemen of the cloth,” nothing but cloth). Paul plays with this verb in 2Co_11:13, 2Co_11:14, 2Co_11:15.
RWS

"For such men are false apostles" These out-of-town religious leaders, possibly from Jerusalem, claimed authority. Paul calls them pseudo-apostles and pseudo-brothers (cf. 2 Cor. 11:26).



"deceitful workers" This word is from the NOUN which meant "fishing bait." They tried to catch the Corinthian believers for their own purposes and to further their reputations.

"disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" These were not sincere Christians who were misled. These were spiritually lost men (cf. 2 Cor. 11:14) attempting to divide the church of God (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15). They were wolves in sheep's clothing (cf. Matthew 7; Acts 20:29; 2 Pet. 2:1-22; Jude 1:3-16).

The term "disguising" (i.e., metaschēmatizō) is used in 2 Cor. 11:13,14,15. It speaks of the outward changing form of something or someone (cf. Phil. 3:21). These (i.e., false teachers and Satan) appear to be what they are not!

11:14 "for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light" This is an obvious truth, but is nowhere else in the Bible stated in these terms. This may be from rabbinical traditions about Genesis 3 (cf. DSS cave 1, Manual of Discipline 3:20,24). Satan's major trick is masquerading as truth (cf. Gen. 3). Evil always tries to mimic or counterfeit the good. False teachers always come from inside the church (cf. 2 Pet. 2; 1 John 2:18-19).

@Jack I don't want to get old and still have wrong doctrines or on a path that I think is right-but is not.
Shalom
Johann

It's good to see someone studying our Bible. Churches are filled with people who totally depend on the words of their pastor, as do JW's. They have no clue what the Bible actually says. The Rev. Wright comes to my mind. "God damn America!"

 

[Johann]

It's good to see someone studying our Bible. Churches are filled with people who totally depend on the words of their pastor, as do JW's. They have no clue what the Bible actually says. The Rev. Wright comes to my mind.

Him?

 

[Johann]

The ancient Jews were not taught that the dead live on after the body dies....that was a foreign concept introduced much later. The Israelites were warned not to adopt the teachings of pagan religions, and yet they kept on doing it. (Deut 18:9-12)

Sheol was simply "the grave" as the Tanakh translates "sheol". It was a place of unconsciousness, where everyone went and the only hope their scripture held out was a resurrection.....a restoration of life...not a continuation of it.

This Hebrew word sheʼohlʹ occurs 65 times in the Masoretic text. In the King James Version, it is translated 31 times as “hell,” 31 times as “grave,” and 3 times as “pit.” The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as “hell,” once as “pit,” and once as “death.” Any wonder there is confusion about what it is.....

Eccl 9:5, 10.....CJB

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten.

הכִּ֧י הַֽחַיִּ֛ים יֽוֹדְעִ֖ים שֶׁיָּמֻ֑תוּ וְהַמֵּתִ֞ים אֵינָ֧ם יֽוֹדְעִ֣ים מְא֗וּמָה וְאֵֽין־ע֤וֹד לָהֶם֙ שָׂכָ֔ר כִּ֥י נִשְׁכַּ֖ח זִכְרָֽם:

Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, where you are going.

יכֹּ֠ל אֲשֶׁ֨ר תִּמְצָ֧א יָֽדְךָ֛ לַֽעֲשׂ֥וֹת בְּכֹֽחֲךָ֖ עֲשֵׂ֑ה כִּי֩ אֵ֨ין מַֽעֲשֶׂ֤ה וְחֶשְׁבּוֹן֙ וְדַ֣עַת וְחָכְמָ֔ה בִּשְׁא֕וֹל אֲשֶׁ֥ר אַתָּ֖ה הֹלֵ֥ךְ שָֽׁמָּה:

The Deity of Christ and the New World Translation Pt. 1

www.answering-islam.org

Irrefutable=not Chabad or CJB or Rashi-online
Johann

JEHOVAH

“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength.” Deuteronomy 6:4-5

“Awake and rise to my defense, My God, Jehovah (LXX – my God and my Lord [ho theous mou kai ho kyrios mou]), defend me in my legal case. Judge me according to your righteousness, O Jehovah my God; Do not let them gloat over me.” Psalm 35:23-24

“Jehovah is God; He gives us light. Join in the festival procession with branches in hand, Up to the horns of the altar. You are my God, and I will praise you; My God, I will exalt you.” Psalm 118:27-28

“I say to Jehovah: ‘You are my God. Listen, O Jehovah, to my pleas for help.’” Psalm 140:6

The online version of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society’s publication Insight to the Scriptures, Volume 2, confirms that a God-fearing Israelite would only confess Jehovah as his/her own God:

“In its articles on Jehovah, The Imperial Bible-Dictionary nicely illustrates the difference between ʼElo·him′ (God) and Jehovah. Of the name Jehovah, it says: “It is everywhere a proper name, denoting the personal God and him only; whereas Elohim partakes more of the character of a common noun, denoting usually, indeed, but not necessarily nor uniformly, the Supreme. . . . The Hebrew may say the Elohim, the true God, in opposition to all false gods; but he never says the Jehovah, for Jehovah is the name of the true God only. He says again and again my God . . . ; but never my Jehovah, for when he says my God, he means Jehovah. He speaks of the God of Israel, but never of the Jehovah of Israel, for there is no other Jehovah. He speaks of the living God, but never of the living Jehovah, for he cannot conceive of Jehovah as other than living.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn, London, 1874, Vol. I, p. 856. (SOURCE; bold emphasis mine)


JESUS

“In answer Thomas SAID TO HIM: ‘My Lord and my God! (ho kyrios mou kai ho theos mou)’ Jesus said to him: “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe.’” John 20:28-29



3. Who is the Mighty God?

JEHOVAH

“In that day those remaining of Israel And the survivors of the house of Jacob Will no longer support themselves on the one who struck them; But they will support themselves on Jehovah, The Holy One of Israel, with faithfulness. Only a remnant will return, The remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God (El Gibbor).” Isaiah 10:20-21


JESUS

“For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El Gibbor), Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. To the increase of his rulership And to peace, there will be no end, On the throne of David and on his kingdom In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it Through justice and righteousness, From now on and forever. The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.” Isaiah 9:6-7



4. Who alone is the Savior of all the earth? In whose name alone and on whose behalf or sake is a person saved and forgiven?

JEHOVAH

“ל [Lamed] For the sake of your name, O Jehovah, Forgive my error, though it is great.” Psalm 25:11

“O God, save me by your name, And defend me with your power.” Psalm 54:1

“Help us, O God of our salvation, For the sake of your glorious name; Rescue us and forgive our sins for the sake of your name.” Psalm 79:9

“I, I am the One who is blotting out your transgressions for my own sake, And I will not remember your sins.” Isaiah 43:25

“Make your report, present your case. Let them consult together in unity. Who foretold this long ago And declared it from times past? Is it not I, Jehovah? There is no other God but me; A righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth, For I am God, and there is no one else. By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return: To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty.” Isaiah 45:21-23


JESUS

“He then said to them: ‘These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.’ Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures, and he said to them, ‘This is what is written: that the Christ would suffer and rise from among the dead on the third day, and on the basis of his name, repentance for forgiveness of sins would be preached in all the nations—starting out from Jerusalem. You are to be witnesses of these things. And look! I am sending upon you what my Father promised. You, though, stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.’” Luke 24:44-49

“The next day their rulers, elders, and scribes gathered together in Jerusalem, along with An′nas the chief priest, Ca′ia·phas John, Alexander, and all who were relatives of the chief priest. They stood Peter and John in their midst and began to question them: ‘By what power or in whose name did you do this?’ Then Peter, filled with holy spirit, said to them: ‘Rulers of the people and elders, if we are being examined today about a good deed to a crippled man, and you want to know who made this man well, let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene′, whom you executed on a stake but whom God raised up from the dead, by means of him this man stands here healthy in front of you. This is “the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the chief cornerstone.” Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’” Acts 4:5-12

So-who is Jesus?

 

[Johann]

So-who is Jesus?

You sit with a problem @Aunty Jane should you continue to remain dogmatic.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ancient Jews like Rashi-since you go online using the CJB with Rashi's commentary-a huge disappointment to me-and you have been "indoctrinated" over 50 years using this CJB "Bible online" with the notes.

Using the CJB doesn’t mean referring to Rashi’s commentary. I simply use the Hebrew Scriptures as they are translated into English. You have to understand that when you choose your scholars, you generally accept those who say what you want to hear.....I am as indoctrinated as anyone else here, because I choose to believe the only ones on this earth whom I have found to live their faith, even to death. Does it make them perfect? As perfect as the original apostles were as sinful humans...but that imperfection did not prevent Jesus from using them to continue his mission. As long as humans are in the flesh in this present world, they will have flaws.

Jesus used and quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures all the time, so did the apostles. I like to consult the Tanakh because Jews know how to translate their own language. Like Jesus, I use the words of scripture, but without the Jewish interpretation on what they want the words to say. In Jesus day they sought loopholes in the law to practice what God’s word never said......Christendom has done the same in my experience.

When asked concerning Christ’s statement to the dying thief, “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with Me in paradise.” (Luke 23:43), the soul-sleepers say the comma is in the wrong place. It should read. “I say unto you today, thou shalt (some day) be with Me in paradise.”

Jesus spoke of paradise, not heaven. Where was the first paradise? On earth......and so this is where Jews expected their resurrection to be....with their Messiah in paradise......they did not expect to go to heaven.
This man was a criminal who was paying for his crimes, and who just a short time before was mocking Jesus along with his companion. His last minute change of heart did not earn him a place in heaven, but he was assured that he would be with Jesus when his kingdom was established over the earth.

But when they are referred to II Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23, they do some very queer juggling and twisting of the Word of God. Note these two verses:

“WE ARE CONFIDENT, I SAY, AND WILLING RATHER TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY, AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD.” “FOR I AM IN A STRAIT BETWIXT TWO, HAVING A DESIRE TO DEPART, AND TO BE WITH CHRIST; WHICH IS FAR BETTER.”

The words “present with the Lord” literally mean “at home with the Lord.” This is very plain language. “Absent from the body”, “at home with the Lord.” In other words, when the saint puts off his tabernacle, he departs to be with the Lord, which is far better. This does not. mean that his soul goes into a coffin beneath the sod, where worms destroy his body. He departs to be with the Lord. He sets out to sea to be with Christ. “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

This too requires knowledge about where the apostles expected to spend eternity, because it was different to the destiny that their religious leaders had taught and expected for centuries. So what changed? Did Jesus come to rewrite the Hebrew Scriptures? NO! He came to expand on them and to show his disciples what it meant to be “Jewish”......he taught them how to keep God’s word authentic, without all the things that “tradition” had added to their burdensome interpretation of the Law. (Matt 15:7-9; Matt 23:1-12)

Right up until his ascension, his apostles believed that the Kingdom would be established on earth (Acts 1:6) and that they would become the “Kingdom of priests and a holy nation” as they had been promised. The trouble was that this nation of serial covenant breakers could never do as they were told, so in giving his Jewish disciples first places in that Kingdom arrangement, God was honouring his covenant, even though the Jews never honoured their part in it. God changed what it meant to be “Jewish”. (Matt 3: 7-10; Rom 2:28-29)

Also when the outpouring of the holy spirit at Pentecost revealed the true nature of their resurrection, for the first time, they knew that the Kingdom was in heaven and that they would need a very different resurrection to the one that all Jews expected. This was what Jesus had alluded to by saying that they must be “born again” and that. where he was going, they could not yet come (John 18:21)......so progressive understanding allowed them to fully appreciate that those ‘elected’ to join Jesus in the place that he had gone to “prepare” for them was in heaven, to rule over subjects on earth....but it was yet future.
They had to be “born again” at their resurrection as spirit beings in order to join Christ in his heavenly Kingdom.

After their anointing, those of the elect had an inordinate desire to leave their flawed fleshly bodies behind and take up residence with their Lord....but this was not to take place until the Lord’s return.

Paul made this clear, that they “sleep” in death until Christ returned to awaken them and take them home to be with him.
1 Thess 4:13-16....
“Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”

How can you not see this plain language? It’s right there.....those who “SLEEP” will rise when the “presence (parousia) of the Lord” takes place. That is when those elected who sleep, will rise and join Jesus in his mission as judge. Has the Lord “descended with his commanding call” yet? Yes he has, because his “presence” as ruling King has already taken place when the “time of the end” began. As he told his disciples on the mount concerning his return.....they asked for the “sign of his presence” which needed a series of important world events that would signal his arrival (Matt 24:3-14)......he is already here guiding and directing his disciples in the most important work that he commanded.....

Matt 28:19-20....
“Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

He has been “with” his true disciples all this time.....his “faithful and discreet slave”, who are feeding his entire household their “food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45) This is why there is no disunity among them. (1 Cor 1:10)

You are not very transparent @Aunty Jane and "selective reading" is the norm.

It is not my intention to be anything but truthful......I owe that to anyone who reads my posts.
The ones whom God draws to his son will be those who hear the ring of truth in spite of what they have been taught.....that is how it was with me.....everything that was presented to me spoke to my heart, not just my selective ears. The truth of God’s word is powerful, as I came to realise. (Heb 4:12)

Make of it what you will...that is none of my business.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So-who is Jesus?

Jesus is who HE said he was......(John 10: 31-36)

 

[Johann]

It is not my intention to be anything but truthful......I owe that to anyone who reads my posts.
The ones whom God draws to his son will be those who hear the ring of truth in spite of what they have been taught.....that is how it was with me.....everything that was presented to me spoke to my heart, not just my selective ears. The truth of God’s word is powerful, as I came to realise. (Heb 4:12)

Make of it what you will...that is none of my business.

Are you still affiliated with JW's? Kingdom Hall?
You say-"make of it what you will-none of my business"
Are you buying-or selling?
Johann.