Who Does The Father Draw?

[Nancy]

No, was there more to the post? It was totally in trying to refute individual election as opposed to corporate election (which is what I believe) just meaning that God calls all, not just an elite few but all people to Him. So, He calls and we choose to accept His free gift or throw it right back at Him. The elect IMO are ALL who choose to serve God. Am I making sense, lol?

LOL

 

[Helen]

No, was there more to the post? It was totally in trying to refute individual election as opposed to corporate election (which is what I believe) just meaning that God calls all, not just an elite few but all people to Him. So, He calls and we choose to accept His free gift or throw it right back at Him. The elect IMO are ALL who choose to serve God. Am I making sense, lol?

So you are still talking about salvation, not our calling and election that Paul spoke of....okay.

 

[Nancy]

So you are still talking about salvation, not our calling and election that Paul spoke of....okay.[/QUOTE

Zaktly

 

[Helen]

Zaktly

That is not what Paul is speaking about...so we have our wires crossed..a train on two different tracks...they usually collide!!

So we'll just drop it now.

blessings...H

 

[Nancy]

That is not what Paul is speaking about...so we have our wires crossed..a train on two different tracks...they usually collide!!

So we'll just drop it now.

blessings...H

Something is being lost in translation! Lol. My first instinct when I read your last post was, ummm, not sure what you mean...then I thought...I guess it is an issue of salvation when speaking to a Calv. so, I dunno my friend all I do now is that we are on the same page where salvation is concerned

 

[Philip James]

Something is being lost in translation! Lol. My first instinct when I read your last post was, ummm, not sure what you mean...then I thought

Misunderstanding the other, i think, causes many of the divisions between us. We should always leave room for an opponent in a debate to clarify what they are saying before we rush to judgement...

Pax!

 

[aspen]

Every heart

 

[Nancy]

Misunderstanding the other, i think, causes many of the divisions between us. We should always leave room for an opponent in a debate to clarify what they are saying before we rush to judgement...

Pax!

Helen and I will be just fine, lol. It's about a part of a post to another member...getting late and we are bleary eyed!
:)

 

[Helen]

Something is being lost in translation! Lol. My first instinct when I read your last post was, ummm, not sure what you mean...then I thought...I guess it is an issue of salvation when speaking to a Calv. so, I dunno my friend all I do now is that we are on the same page where salvation is concerned

That is the trouble that I was talking about many posts back. You and GodsGrace are so caught up with this Calvin diversion you can't see anything else.

I said earlier that I was not posting about Calvin or cared about Calvin and if I knew that this thread was all about " we hate Calvin" then I wouldn't have bothered posting in it...any more than I like the "we hate catholics" threads.

That said...If you go back and re read my post #77 ( and forget anything that Calvin said...) I was referring to a line that your posted to our friend Mjr29 in your post #71 ...I know you were talking about salvation...but you used the words there is no election. I was questioning this.

In that post #77
I am speaking about people who can't see anything further in God's word than 'their salvation...Most , I'd say 90% of what Paul writes is nothing about salvation at all, but about our calling and election in Christ, and being the Overcomer's found in Revelation 3 ...which, we can miss out on...but our salvation is secure.
But, no worries either way...maybe I should just opt out of this thread. It has too much concern about what Calvin did or didn't believe. I'm in the wrong thread.."for me." Others probably enjoy it.

I am headed to bed now...I expect you are too.
Bless you , and sleep well....H

 

[LC627]

They walk in darkness, but it is that innate desire for God that gives them that religious impulse...

Peace!

That just proves the fallen nature of man. They never seek the true God but false ones and their heart is set on idols

 

[LC627]

It all depends on your definition of "predestination" God predestined corporately, not individually. --->He predestined the Gentiles! Which means ALL men. We were grafted in. That was God's mystery in the OT-Imho.

predestination = deciding / ordaining ahead of time. Either way you look at it God had full knowledge of the future. Can we understand this mystery fully while in our flesh? No. But I do believe that we can have confidence that nothing was hidden from God. Whatever one believes about predestination it is clear that salvation is fully the work of God and nothing we do. It is by His grace - none of us can boast or walk into Heaven saying, "Ah I helped myself get here". Those who are believers in Christ need to remain humble each and everyday because this road is narrow and it is only by God's great and awesome grace that we even have salvation.

 

[Helen]

That just proves the fallen nature of man. They never seek the true God but false ones and their heart is set on idols

Who is this THEY that you keep speaking about in your posts??

Don't tell me that we have another one here that has "all knowledge and can see into the hearts of mankind.." God help us!!

↑ @Philip James said
< I vehemently disagree with this. I believe the desire for God is innate to every man. This is why you will find ackowledging something greater than ourselves in every community of humanity throughout time.

Peace! >

@LC627 said...< Acknowledging "something greater" is different than submission to the One Lord and Savior. Their acknowledgement is really towards demons and false gods - not the True Messiah >

How can you say that?
How do you know what is in the hearts or Mr Ordinary in the street..you do not know what they seek after..

Above I quote of you as saying... 'They' never seek the true God but false ones and their heart is set on idols.

Crying out loud, that is one of the most foolish statements I have heard in a while!!
MANY have had a seed of the gospel shared with them by someone...who knows what nudging the Father is doing on their lives!
Who know their dealings..

And I honestly believe that God is trying to nudge all men...some will respond, but some will not.

I think you need to spend some one to one moments with Father God, and let Him tell you all about they...
You sit in judgement over them in your post here...I don't see any brokenness or weeping over their lost state!

 

[Philip James]

That just proves the fallen nature of man. They never seek the true God but false ones and their heart is set on idols

Thay may be true for some, but my opinon is that most truly seek the Truth... And those that do will find it, on this world or before the throne...

 

[GodsGrace]

I think it depends on the perspective. From our perspective it is our free will. From God's it is election.

I'm sorry Iforrest.
There are not two realities. There's only ONE reality.
Either we have free will or we don't.
You do have to decide which it is.

The bible teaches that we have free will.
Deuteronomy 30:19
19“I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Both the O.T. and the N.T. is full of choices. Choices show that we have free will.
And not compatible free will, where, as Calvin taught, God MAKES US have HIS will so that it SEEMS that we have free will but really we don't. This is not the God of the bible who loves His creation so much as to have provided a way of escape from going to hell --- something Calvin opposes. The bible teaches us:

John 3:16-18
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


And what is compatible free will?
God makes us THINK we're using our free will be changing what we want, or will.
Rather a tricky God that would be, don't you think?
Here is an explanation of compatible free will, which all churches oppose, except for the reformed, or calvinist, churches.

Hence we maintain that, by his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.14

God does not simply permit man to act in a particular way. Men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on anything but what he has previously decreed with himself, and brings to pass by his secret direction.

15 God works internally in the minds of men so that ‘whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God’.

16 The hand of God rules the interior affections no less than it superintends external actions; nor would God have effected by the hand of man what he decreed, unless he worked in their hearts to make them will before they acted.

17 It follows therefore that ‘the will of God is the chief and principal cause of all things’.

source: https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol12/calvin_lane.pdf

 

[GodsGrace]

God foreknew everything that would ever happen and out of His foreknowledge He predestined those who would believe in Him. Nothing was hidden from His sight.

2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time.

Before a single day had passed on the earth God already knew everything.

I am not a Calvinist, I believe what is in the Bible and it is clear predestination is Biblical. Do you just erase that word from your Bible? It is all from the foreknowledge of God

LC
It is one thing to FOREKNOW all that will happen.
Do you believe foreknowledge CAUSES something to happen?
Or we just KNOW it will?

Predestination means that God predestined everything that will happen.
Everything. The bible does not teach this. It teaches free will. I find it a little bothersome that some of us use the language of Calvin's teachings but then proclaim that they are not Calvinists. If we're NOT Calvinists, we should not be speaking as he taught.

What does 2 Timothy 1:9 mean?
2 Timothy 1:1 Paul is carrying out God's plan, and what is that plan? It is in the message that Jesus came to bring -- that whosoever believes in HIM will be saved. Salvation is in Jesus.

2 Timothy 1:5-7 It seems the faith is handed down from grandmother, to mother, and now to the daughter. No talk here of God purposefully and with no conditions giving the faith to them, except, of course, to offer it to everyone -- and they CHOSE to accept this faith God has offered.

2 Timothy 1:8-9 Paul tells Timothy to keep at the good work of his ministry
by the power of God who first saved him by his acceptance of the faith and THEN he (Timothy) was called to do this holy work for God. This plan was known by God before time began, Genesis 3:17 the salvation plan, which is in Jesus and which we no know ....this is the mystery often spoken of in Romans and other letters.

 

[Stranger]

Since God calls everyone to repent and believe, there is no election.

Calvin said that: " by external preaching all are called to faith and repentance,..."and that yet the Spirit of faith and repentance is not given to all.”
2 Addressing himself to the assumption that the external call to everyone implies a universal grace of God to all and a universal promise to all, Calvin reminds such objectors to election that God is not “under a fixed obligation to call all equally.” <---wow. God is ALWAYS under His own obligation! He ALWAYS means what He say's and does what He promises. He does NOT change and is always faithful. He says ALL, ANY, WHOMSOEVER, THE WORLD and so many more places in The Word make this crystal clear.
The Gospel is to be simple not complicated.
I pray you will always keep your heart open, your pride in check.
God bless,
-nancy

Appreciate the prayer. If this doctrine troubles your spirit to the degree that you spoke of in post #75, then I certainly don't want to discuss it with you, and push you away from God.

And, your understanding of God is correct. The invitation is to all. Jesus Christ died for all. And any who choose to come to Christ will be saved. And those who reject Christ will not be saved. He does not change and that never changes.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

the SCRIPTURE

Which one?
John 6:44 which is used by Calvinists to prove their point...
Or
John 12:32 which proves that Jesus will draw ALL men to Him?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well I doubt that day will ever come!
But I am pretty sure I wouldn't bother even if I had the time..again..I am not interested in doctrines of others.

I just write or speak from my heart, what I believe ...so no, I doubt I will ever "watch my language" ...in case someone misunderstand what I was talking about.
If they want to think that I am speaking calvinspeak then they will , or they will have to ask me.

When a Bank trains people to spot the fake $ bills.
They do not get them to study the fake, but they have an intense study of the genuine. That is what I do...who cares about the fake.
Christ is The True...
Moses endured 'seeing Him' who is invisible.
Many years ago the Lord said to me;- " Always.. Behold The Lamb".

I understand, but I think it's a good idea to know what's out there.
For instance, you say banks train people by using real money.
So you feel you know the truth,, this is good.
But then you say some things that sound very calvinistic. So, yes, it's good to know what they believe so as not to seem to agree with them.
That's my only point with you,,,not that I disagree with what you say.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why do you ask this yet do not answer my post?

I think this hatred you have of Calvinism has consumed you.

Stranger

I'm sorry if I missed a post of yours. I'm not on here long enough and this happens to me at times.

I see on these threads much hate speech toward Catholicism and it's a faith that believes in a loving and merciful God.

Why do we not dislike a faith that believes in a monster of a god that chooses who He will save and who He will damn. Are we, the rest of Christianity, in agreement with this depiction of our God? I do believe we should dislike calvinism more than catholicism, if a choice is to be made.

If 1 John 4:8 is correct...
How could anything they believe also be correct?

That verse doesn't say that God LOVES...
It says that God IS love. His very nature is love.
A calvinistic God is not a God of love.

 

[Nancy]

Appreciate the prayer. If this doctrine troubles your spirit to the degree that you spoke of in post #75, then I certainly don't want to discuss it with you, and push you away from God.

And, your understanding of God is correct. The invitation is to all. Jesus Christ died for all. And any who choose to come to Christ will be saved. And those who reject Christ will not be saved. He does not change and that never changes.
Stranger

Hi Stranger,
I'm sorry if I offended you my brother, yes, this doctrine gets me worked up and my take on it is very firm. Nothing will ever push me away from God. I am so afraid this will get into the minds of those who are weaker in the faith but, seems I will leave this alone as there is lot's of confusion on the part of others and being as it is so divisive, I will wimp out and keep my opinions to myself here.
Be blessed
-nancy