Who is the Little Horn of Daniel?
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
It's not the RCC, it's the Calvary Chapel (just CC) church, -- or possibly the Baptists, or is it the Presbyterians, or is it the Lutherans? Oh, yeah, IT'S THE UNITED NATIONS. What an IDIOT I was for not guessing the OBVIOUS.
DOH,
Bobby Jo
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
You know there's a Great Horn; there are FOUR additional Lessor Horns; and there are ELEVEN Little Horns. Have you accounted for each in it's own class so you have context? Conversely if you simply shoot in all directions, you'll probably hit the barn, -- maybe the neighbor's barn -- but certainly a barn! :)
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Yeah I thought the same until I read the rest of the verse:
Rev. 17:9 ...the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; 10 they are also seven kings ...
Sometimes those details get in my way also, and I do my best to ignore them too! :)
seven "regions of the earth", -- please stop with the jokes, I can't get up, -- someone help me up ...
Bobby Jo
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
So for those who haven't figured out world history, please allow the following:
Yeah it's awfully complicated, and doesn't make a lick of sense, and I wouldn't trust "historians", but it may be prudent to know what those liars say ...
Bobby Jo
1. Gold, Babylonia -- 1 of 5 has fallen
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc.
9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- 2 of 5 has fallen
3. Bronze, Grecian -- 3 of 5 has fallen
4. Iron, Roman -- 4 of 5 has fallen
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S. -- 5 of 5 has fallen from preeminence
-- 6. Bear, Russia -- "one is" when it attacks Israel
-- 7. Leopard (actually a "Tiger"), China -- "is yet to come" when it spanks Russia
-- 8. "Dreadful", United Nations -- "was and is not", and has NO Geography, NO Populous, NO Army, etc.
9. Great Stone, Jesus' Millennial Kingdom
10. New Jerusalem, eternity in Heaven
Yeah it's awfully complicated, and doesn't make a lick of sense, and I wouldn't trust "historians", but it may be prudent to know what those liars say ...
Bobby Jo
Bible_Gazer
Member
If there is a one man only called Anti-Christ (which 1John says many) and he has an army or a large group coming against Israel, then this story is not true one to follow.
There is not any other outside king or kingdom that is separate from the Dan.7 4th beast(which is Rome related).
The 4th is the last to rule over God's people = there will never be another person or kingdom to rise up after it.
Daniel 7:17-18 (KJV)
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
And there's only one passage of Scripture which provides the most verbose curse for any one man:
...
6 Appoint a wicked man against him;
let an accuser bring him to trial.
7 When he is tried, let him come forth guilty;
let his prayer be counted as sin!
8 May his days be few;
may another seize his goods!
9 May his children be fatherless,
and his wife a widow!
10 May his children wander about and beg;
may they be driven out of the ruins they inhabit!
11 May the creditor seize all that he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil!
12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him,
nor any to pity his fatherless children!
13 May his posterity be cut off;
may his name be blotted out in the second generation!
14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord,
and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out!
15 Let them be before the Lord continually;
and may his memory be cut off from the earth!
16 For he did not remember to show kindness,
but pursued the poor and needy
and the brokenhearted to their death.
17 He loved to curse; let curses come on him!
He did not like blessing; may it be far from him!
18 He clothed himself with cursing as his coat,
may it soak into his body like water,
like oil into his bones!
19 May it be like a garment which he wraps round him,
like a belt with which he daily girds himself!
...
6 Appoint a wicked man against him;
let an accuser bring him to trial.
7 When he is tried, let him come forth guilty;
let his prayer be counted as sin!
8 May his days be few;
may another seize his goods!
9 May his children be fatherless,
and his wife a widow!
10 May his children wander about and beg;
may they be driven out of the ruins they inhabit!
11 May the creditor seize all that he has;
may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil!
12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him,
nor any to pity his fatherless children!
13 May his posterity be cut off;
may his name be blotted out in the second generation!
14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the Lord,
and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out!
15 Let them be before the Lord continually;
and may his memory be cut off from the earth!
16 For he did not remember to show kindness,
but pursued the poor and needy
and the brokenhearted to their death.
17 He loved to curse; let curses come on him!
He did not like blessing; may it be far from him!
18 He clothed himself with cursing as his coat,
may it soak into his body like water,
like oil into his bones!
19 May it be like a garment which he wraps round him,
like a belt with which he daily girds himself!
...
But it ain't for the a/c. It's for a U.S. President, but we "christians" are so misled by the dishonest media that MANY would accuse this of TRUMP. They would NEVER in a million years admit that it's actually for another ...
-- Concept Reference: J.R. Church, "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms".
Pretty funny, huh!
Bobby Jo
Davy
Well-Known Member
No math mistake. The 5th beast piece is from Neb's dream; the 4th beast diverse was from Daniel's own vision. Regardless of the numbering, both are about the final beast kingdom upon the earth when Jesus returns to end it. Because of this different numbering, some scholars have assumed that the 5th piece of the feet of ten toes of iron & clay will be a revived Roman empire, since the 'legs of iron' represented the old Roman empire that is no more. However, that would still amount to a 5th final beast with a revived Roman empire for the very end.
Beast image statue Neb dreamed in Dan.2:
1. "head of gold" = Babylon
2. "his breast and arms of silver" = Medo-Persia
3. "his belly and his thighs of brass" = Grecia
4. "His legs of iron" = old Roman empire
5. "his feet part of iron and part of clay" = ??? final beast kingdom when Jesus comes.
Per Dan.2, it's the beast kingdom of the feet of ten toes of mixed iron & clay that is standing when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet and setup His everlasting Kingdom...
Dan 2:44
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
KJV
What "kings" is the Dan.2 Scripture talking about there that are to exist when Jesus comes to smite that final beast kingdom on its feet? Human feet have ten toes, so you see, I can count. It is referencing the feet of ten toes, and indirectly applying the idea of ten kings to that final beast piece of the feet.
Where else do we have a Bible reference to ten kings manifesting with the final beast kingdom on earth when Jesus comes to end it and setup His Kingdom on earth instead? It is given in Daniel 7, and in Revelation...
Dan 7:7-8
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
KJV
The Daniel 7:9-14 verses are about those thrones being cast down, ended by God, and His Son given dominion and an everlasting Kingdom, same idea as Dan.2:34-35 when Jesus comes to end the final beast kingdom and setup His everlasting Kingdom on earth.
In Summary:
It's more important to recognize the attributes of the 'final' beast kingdom manifested when our Lord Jesus returns to setup His eternal Kingdom over all the earth. The numbering in the Book of Daniel regarding the above is less important.
Davy
Well-Known Member
There are only 11 horns total given for the end of days beast kingdom when Jesus returns at the end.
Rev 17:12-14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
KJV
The final beast king for this world described earlier in Rev.17 is the "little horn" of Dan.7, the coming Antichrist/false-Messiah. That make 11 kings total.
Now hitting whatever 'barn' you're talking about, I don't have a clue.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Calvin's expositors couldn't resolve the contradiction between Dan. 1:21 & 10:1. So Calvin simply threw out 1:21 in deference to 10:1.
Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1
Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah,by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.
Everything above that Calvin argued for IS A LIE. Scripture says let GOD be TRUE and every man a liar (Romans 3:4).
And of course you're doing to the same thing, throwing out the Dan. 2:45 Intelligent Design sequence 4,3,5,2,1 in deference to Chapter 7. And this makes YOU a liar (Romans 3:4).
BOTH 1:21/10:1 and 2:45/Chapter 7 are easily reconciled, but you must use ALL Scripture, -- not just the ones which you pick and choose!
Bobby Jo
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Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Davy, I have no clue why you say what you say:
The ram has TWO HORNS
The he-goat has a GREAT HORN
... with FOUR CONSPICUOUS HORNS
the dreadful beast has TEN HORNS
... and ANOTHER HORN
The he-goat has a GREAT HORN
... with FOUR CONSPICUOUS HORNS
the dreadful beast has TEN HORNS
... and ANOTHER HORN
Now I'm not nearly as good at math as YOU, but I count 18 TOTAL.
Now the question remains, which horns belong to which categories?!? And you haven't got a clue ...
Bobby Jo
PS See, you're "shooting" but don't even know that you're supposed to be aiming at a "barn", -- any "barn" --, preferably the one on YOUR property.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Well the details you're relying on are from Westcott & Hort's radical Greek text which the majority of modern Bible translations originate from.
That's one of the reasons I use the 1611 KJV Bible, because it used the Textus Receptus which made up the majority of Greek NT texts.
Rev 17:9-10
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
KJV
And because we are shown about an 8th king in the next verse, that defeats any supposition Westcott & Hort made with trying to make verse 10 to mean 8 kings with 7 mountains. So 7 mountains do not equal 8 kings. Yes, I can count.
Rev 17:11
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
KJV
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
... Scripture and History.
NO, you CAN'T COUNT: The EIGHTH "was and is not". So you have Seven figurative MOUNTAINS and Seven literal KINGS, -- and an eighth "PAPER king".
Perhaps the "experts" in this forum would do as well if they examined each of an elephant's different aspects!
BJ
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CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
You mean the Textus Receptus
Which was written in the 1500s by a Catholic.
That is supposed to be superior to the manuscripts written in the 100, 200 and tme period. Handwritten copies versus printing press generated copies. Non-Catholic versus Catholic.
Why are you deliberately making false claims? The eighth King comes from the seven, not in addition to the seven.
Revelation 17:9-11
9 “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.
Davy
Well-Known Member
I don't get all confused with the numbering of the final beast kingdom on earth to be manifested when Jesus returns to end this present world. I explained that in my post #28. Dan.2 shows it's the 5th image piece of the feet of ten toes of iron & clay, and Dan.7 shows it's a 4th beast. Those numbers don't detract from the fact that both reveal the final beast kingdom when Jesus comes will have ten kings.
Moreover, the "abomination of desolation" event Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel has not yet taken place in Jerusalem, simply because the Romans in 70 A.D. intended to seize the Jerusalem temple but failed as it burned down, and there has not been another Jewish temple in Jerusalem since then, going on now close to 2,000 years. Antiochus IV only served as a 'type' for the final Antichrist that shall come to Jerusalem and set himself up in a rebuilt temple and proclaim himself as God, like Apostle Paul said in 2 Thess.2.
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
As with the Romans it was quite common to leave Kings in place and subject countries to act as governor etc.
As long as they were obedient to Rome they could run their nations as they wished.
Bobby Jo
Well-Known Member
Yeah, you just throw out what doesn't match your "theology", -- and then everything works.
Great "theology",
BJ
CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Keeping it very simple AC has number of conditions to be met for where he comes from.
Not going into great detail, he is a man who rises out the Ten Toes, the first beast of Revelation.
The 10 toes remain things but they surrender their power to him just like how pagan Rome was run.
A good visualization helps.
Here are the toes of the Roman Empire wrote down into, noting they broke down even further over time. But it shows in their locations.
Now, here is a map of the EU. Note the two maps two maps covered the same geographical area.
The EU will be the AC nation.
Not going into great detail, he is a man who rises out the Ten Toes, the first beast of Revelation.
The 10 toes remain things but they surrender their power to him just like how pagan Rome was run.
A good visualization helps.
Here are the toes of the Roman Empire wrote down into, noting they broke down even further over time. But it shows in their locations.
Now, here is a map of the EU. Note the two maps two maps covered the same geographical area.
The EU will be the AC nation.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You need to be careful of what you accuse people of, lest you shown your ignorance.
I never threw out the Daniel 2:45 passage...
Dan 2:44-45
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
KJV
Those verses are about the destruction of the final beast kingdom that will have ten kings, which is also shown in Christ's Revelation Chapter 17, for the end of this world just prior to His return. The previous Daniel 2 verse that refers to points directly to the final image beast statue piece, the feet of clay while supporting all... the other image pieces above it, suggesting a truly one-world government system over all nations and peoples with none left out. There is has never been such a beast kingdom on earth yet that encompassed absolutely all... nations and peoples.
Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV
Those are the verses the Dan.2:44-45 Scripture is pointing directly to.
How many different pieces are there in verse 35? Five, of course. The stone that smote the image becoming a great mountain filling the whole earth is put for Christ's eternal Kingdom on earth when He returns and takes reign over all nations and peoples.
Davy
Well-Known Member
You are obviously confused.
There is NO mention of 'horns' in Daniel 7 until it begins speaking of the 4th beast...
Dan 7:7-8
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
KJV
The ram with two horns and he goat was a different vision Daniel had in Daniel 8.
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