Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

[Phoneman777]

You deny God will save the Jews in Psa 83 and Ezek 38-39?

God will save the Jew "which is one inwardly, who circumcision is of the heart", not the Jews who's only outwardly circumcised. Remember, all the promises made to the fathers such as what you speak of apply to those who are in Christ Jesus, bro (2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV)

 

[Phoneman777]

No!! The Christians ate His flesh and drank His blood. The Jews rejected him.
He declared unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have no life in you! (among other things)

Verse 63 is where Jesus reveals the meaning of His "hard saying".

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." John 6:63 KJV

His Word must be in us, the "bread of life" and His redemption "through His blood", must be there as well.

It's purely symbolism, just as the grape juice and the bread are symbolic only. Round wafers which symbolizes the Sun God in paganism and the "womb" Monstrance in which it is placed which represents the union of the phallus and the womb - the crux and core of all occult worship in all its sexually licentiousness - is here dragged into Christianity and invested with "miraculous" attributes which possess no such thing. Any supernatural manifestations in the Catholic Eucharist, such as the wafer "host" turning into blood in the mouth of a recipient, is purely Satanic deception.

 

[mjrhealth]

God will save the Jew "which is one inwardly, who circumcision is of the heart", not the Jews who's only outwardly circumcised. Remember, all the promises made to the fathers such as what you speak of apply to those who are in Christ Jesus, bro (2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV)

God will save the Jews, they are His people, and your unbelief will not change that.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[ATP]

God will save the Jew "which is one inwardly, who circumcision is of the heart", not the Jews who's only outwardly circumcised. Remember, all the promises made to the fathers such as what you speak of apply to those who are in Christ Jesus, bro (2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV)

But doesn't the "enemies of Israel" and the "land of Israel" have to do with the physical enemies and land? It seems outwardly to me, geographically speaking..

Psa 83:5-8 NIV With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance against you—6the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites, 7Byblos, Ammon and Amalek, Philistia, with the people of Tyre. 8Even Assyria has joined them to reinforce Lot’s descendants.

Ezek 38:18 NIV This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord.

God will save the Jews, they are His people, and your unbelief will not change that.

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Let us pray.

 

[Phoneman777]

But doesn't the "enemies of Israel" and the "land of Israel" have to do with the physical enemies and land? It seems outwardly to me, geographically speaking..

Psa 83:5-8 NIV With one mind they plot together; they form an alliance against you—6the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites, of Moab and the Hagrites, 7Byblos, Ammon and Amalek, Philistia, with the people of Tyre. 8Even Assyria has joined them to reinforce Lot’s descendants.

Ezek 38:18 NIV This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord.


Let us pray.

ATP, when Paul referred to the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 KJV, was he referring to those who "are Christ's" and are are "Abraham's seed" (Galatians 3:29 KJV),

-or-

was he referring to a nation of Christ-haters that spit venom on the Cross, mock Jesus as "the Great Imposter" and "son of a whore", and also persecute and murder Christians and outlaw the preaching of the Gospel? Does not Spiritual Israel - the church - have enemies and occupy land?

 

[Saint]

Read these three passages, understand what is says and tell me who the bride of Christ is!

[SIZE=11pt]And Joseph saw that his father was putting his right hand on the head of Ephraim; and it was evil in his eyes. And he took hold of his father's hand to turn it from Ephraim's head to the head of Manasseh. And Joseph said to his father, Not so, my father! For this one is the first-born; put your right hand on his head. And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall be a people, and he shall become great. But his younger brother shall become greater than he, and his seed shall become the fullness of the nations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Gen 48:17-19)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Jehovah also said to me in the days of Josiah the king, Have you seen what the apostate Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every green tree, and has fornicated there. And after she had done all these, I said, She will return to Me; but she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. And I watched. When for all the causes for which the apostate Israel committed adultery, I sent her away and I gave the writ of her divorce to her. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she also went and fornicated. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Jer 3:6-8)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]And from there I will give her vineyards to her, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope. And she shall answer there as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And at that day, says Jehovah, you shall call Me, My husband; and you shall no more call Me, My Baal. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Hos 2:15-16)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]However if your eyes are blinded I doubt that you will understand![/SIZE]

 

[Phoneman777]

Read these three passages, understand what is says and tell me who the bride of Christ is!

[SIZE=11pt]And Joseph saw that his father was putting his right hand on the head of Ephraim; and it was evil in his eyes. And he took hold of his father's hand to turn it from Ephraim's head to the head of Manasseh. And Joseph said to his father, Not so, my father! For this one is the first-born; put your right hand on his head. And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall be a people, and he shall become great. But his younger brother shall become greater than he, and his seed shall become the fullness of the nations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Gen 48:17-19)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Jehovah also said to me in the days of Josiah the king, Have you seen what the apostate Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every green tree, and has fornicated there. And after she had done all these, I said, She will return to Me; but she did not return. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it. And I watched. When for all the causes for which the apostate Israel committed adultery, I sent her away and I gave the writ of her divorce to her. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she also went and fornicated. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Jer 3:6-8)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]And from there I will give her vineyards to her, and the valley of Achor for a door of hope. And she shall answer there as in the days of her youth, and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And at that day, says Jehovah, you shall call Me, My husband; and you shall no more call Me, My Baal. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt](Hos 2:15-16)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]However if your eyes are blinded I doubt that you will understand![/SIZE]

Paul says Christ's bride is the church, does he not? A "chaste virgin". Jesus says he's going away to prepare a place for us and will come again and receive, which all scholars agree is marriage language modeled after the method of Christ's day.

 

[ATP]

ATP, when Paul referred to the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:16 KJV, was he referring to those who "are Christ's" and are are "Abraham's seed" (Galatians 3:29 KJV),

-or-

was he referring to a nation of Christ-haters that spit venom on the Cross, mock Jesus as "the Great Imposter" and "son of a whore", and also persecute and murder Christians and outlaw the preaching of the Gospel? Does not Spiritual Israel - the church - have enemies and occupy land?

No Phone Psalm 83 and Ezek 38-39 are wars that will break out in the specific land of Israel.

Paul says Christ's bride is the church, does he not? A "chaste virgin". Jesus says he's going away to prepare a place for us and will come again and receive,
which all scholars agree is marriage language modeled after the method of Christ's day.

Read "Psalm 83" and "Nuclear Showdown in Iran" by Bill Salus. Educate yourself Phone. Hos 4:6.

 

[Phoneman777]

No Phone Psalm 83 and Ezek 38-39 are wars that will break out in the specific land of Israel.

I didn't ask you about some "future" wars. I asked you to whom was Paul referring when he said "Israel of God".

 

[ATP]

I didn't ask you about some "future" wars. I asked you to whom was Paul referring when he said "Israel of God".

I answered you in post 321, and you ignored my question. Are you moving to Judea Phone? Israel is seen fleeing from the antichrist in Matt 24:16 NIV. The "Israel of God" is an analogy to describe the spiritual condition of the church, and the promises of God. Kinda blows your non-osas doctrine out of the water huh.....

Gen 32:28 NIV Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

Psa 20:6-9 NIV Now this I know: The Lord gives victory to his anointed. He answers him from his heavenly sanctuary with the victorious power of his right hand. 7Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God. 8They are brought to their knees and fall, but we rise up and stand firm. 9Lord, give victory to the king! Answer us when we call!

Psalm 44:5-8 NIV Through you we push back our enemies; through your name we trample our foes. 6I put no trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory; 7but you give us victory over our enemies, you put our adversaries to shame. 8In God we make our boast all day long, and we will praise your name forever.

John 16:33 NIV "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Acts 20:28 NIV Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Rom 8:35 NIV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Rom 8:37 NIV No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 2:14 NIV But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ's triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere.

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

1 John 4:4 NIV You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 12:11 NIV They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

- ATP

 

[Phoneman777]

I answered you in post 321, and you ignored my question. Are you moving to Judea Phone? Israel is seen fleeing from the antichrist in Matt 24:16 NIV. The "Israel of God" is an analogy to describe the spiritual condition of the church, and the promises of God. Kinda blows your non-osas doctrine out of the water huh.....

Gen 32:28 NIV Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

Psa 20:6-9 NIV Now this I know: The Lord gives victory to his anointed. He answers him from his heavenly sanctuary with the victorious power of his right hand. 7Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the Lord our God. 8They are brought to their knees and fall, but we rise up and stand firm. 9Lord, give victory to the king! Answer us when we call!

Psalm 44:5-8 NIV Through you we push back our enemies; through your name we trample our foes. 6I put no trust in my bow, my sword does not bring me victory; 7but you give us victory over our enemies, you put our adversaries to shame. 8In God we make our boast all day long, and we will praise your name forever.

John 16:33 NIV "I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."

Acts 20:28 NIV Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

Rom 8:35 NIV Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Rom 8:37 NIV No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 55“Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Cor 2:14 NIV But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ's triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere.

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

1 John 4:4 NIV You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

Rev 12:11 NIV They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

- ATP

I've asked you a very simple question which does not require an entire wall of confusion such as you have presented and I have not read, but requires only a two word answer: either "the church" or "modern Israel".

Now, I'll ask you again: To whom was Paul referring when he said that peace would be upon the "Israel of God" who walk according to the rule that being in Christ produces a new creature (Galatians 6:15-16 KJV) - "the church" or "modern Israel"???

I know this will require an enormous exercise of self control and self restrain on your part, ATP, but you can do it. No walls of confusion, no convoluted reasoning, no corrupting Scripture in order to establish it - just answer "the church" or "modern Israel", OK? Which is it?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

I've asked you a very simple question which does not require an entire wall of confusion such as you have presented and I have not read, but requires only a two word answer: either "the church" or "modern Israel".

He already answered it.

The "Israel of God" is an analogy to describe the spiritual condition of the church, and the promises of God.

Expositor's Bible Commentary - Gal 6:16 There are two ways in which the "and" (καί, G2779,, kai) of this verse may be taken.

It may be a simple connective, in which case Paul's final words would be directed to all who among the Gentiles walk according to the truth of the gospel and to Israel. This would not mean "unbelieving Israel," of course. It would refer to Christian Judaism. But it would, nevertheless, be somewhat of an olive- branch stretched out to the Jewish side of Christianity.

On the other hand, kai may have the sense of "even," in which case there would not be two parties and two benedictions (as Burton holds) but one group containing both Jews and Gentiles, which Paul now designates as God's Israel.

This second use is much bolder, but it is probably the one in view here. One can hardly suppose Paul to be distinguishing two distinct branches of Christianity now after his lengthy insistence upon one gospel throughout the letter and his closing insistence upon the one rule by which those who believe the gospel are to walk. The point is that a true Jew is not one who is a child of Abraham according to the flesh, but rather a child of God through the new birth by grace according to God's Spirit.

 

[Phoneman777]

He already answered it.


Expositor's Bible Commentary - Gal 6:16 There are two ways in which the "and" (καί, G2779,, kai) of this verse may be taken.

It may be a simple connective, in which case Paul's final words would be directed to all who among the Gentiles walk according to the truth of the gospel and to Israel. This would not mean "unbelieving Israel," of course. It would refer to Christian Judaism. But it would, nevertheless, be somewhat of an olive- branch stretched out to the Jewish side of Christianity.

On the other hand, kai may have the sense of "even," in which case there would not be two parties and two benedictions (as Burton holds) but one group containing both Jews and Gentiles, which Paul now designates as God's Israel.

This second use is much bolder, but it is probably the one in view here. One can hardly suppose Paul to be distinguishing two distinct branches of Christianity now after his lengthy insistence upon one gospel throughout the letter and his closing insistence upon the one rule by which those who believe the gospel are to walk. The point is that a true Jew is not one who is a child of Abraham according to the flesh, but rather a child of God through the new birth by grace according to God's Spirit.

I don't read his lengthy posts. I've told him if he wants people to read them, he's got to start limiting their size and exercising restraint.

 

[Phoneman777]

I answered you in post 321, and you ignored my question. Are you moving to Judea Phone? Israel is seen fleeing from the antichrist in Matt 24:16 NIV. The "Israel of God" is an analogy to describe the spiritual condition of the church, and the promises of God. Kinda blows your non-osas doctrine out of the water huh.....

- ATP

ATP, how can you acknowledge Paul's Galatians 6:16 KJV reference to "the Israel of God" as "the church", but still insist that literal Israel is the focus of prophecy? The word "those" to whom Paul pronounces peace and mercy is a literal reference, but "the Israel of God" to whom Paul is pronouncing the same is supposed to be a symbolic reference? Yet, "Israel" in the last and most symbolic book is to be understood as literal Israel? Seriously?

Just as the word "the" in "the church" does not include the Church of Satan or any other counterfeit, likewise "the Israel of God" - the church - is the true Israelite institution among counterfeits like Rastafarian Israelites (there is only one other person on Earth more confused than you, ATP, and that is a white Rastafarian Israelite), British Israelites, Black Israelites, and your beloved Israel in the Middle east

No, ATP, there is only one "Israel of God" just as there is only one "Temple of God" - both being one in the same - it is they who are Christ's, they who walk according to the rule of Christ, they who are circumcised inwardly, they who are truly of Israel, they who are called "the Israel of God", they to whom the promises to the fathers that are "yea" and "amen" in Christ Jesus are the recipients - the church - not the counterfeit Israel in the Middle East which calls Jesus "the Great Imposter" and His mother a whore.

 

[ATP]

I've asked you a very simple question which does not require an entire wall of confusion such as you have presented and I have not read, but requires only a two word answer: either "the church" or "modern Israel".

Now, I'll ask you again: To whom was Paul referring when he said that peace would be upon the "Israel of God" who walk according to the rule that being in Christ produces a new creature (Galatians 6:15-16 KJV) - "the church" or "modern Israel"???

I know this will require an enormous exercise of self control and self restrain on your part, ATP, but you can do it. No walls of confusion, no convoluted reasoning, no corrupting Scripture in order to establish it - just answer "the church" or "modern Israel", OK? Which is it?

Why was Jacob given the name Israel in Gen 32:28 Phone? The name "Israel" or "Israel of God" is an analogy to describe the spiritual condition of man and the church and the promises of God.

For example, Phoneman has given himself the name Phoneman because his job is working on the phones. Saints are given the name Israel because they have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome. This is actually speaking of both Israel and the church. Kinda blows your non-osas doctrine out of the water huh.....

Gen 32:28 NIV Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[Phoneman777]

Why was Jacob given the name Israel in Gen 32:28 Phone? The name "Israel" or "Israel of God" is an analogy to describe the spiritual condition of man and the church and the promises of God.

For example, Phoneman has given himself the name Phoneman because his job is working on the phones. Saints are given the name Israel because they have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome. This is actually speaking of both Israel and the church. Kinda blows your non-osas doctrine out of the water huh.....

Gen 32:28 NIV Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”

1 John 5:4-5 NIV for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

You can't help yourself, can you? Can't even just say "the church" or "modern Israel", can you?

 

[tom55]

Never said that it did. Try reading the earlier post again, very slowly.

I asked four (4) questions and you have one response; "Never said that it did". Is that the answer to all four questions??

Maybe I can clarify what I mean and how I read your post!

Whether I read what you, Michael V Pardo, said very slowly or very fast it doesn't' change what you said: "For many people within the professing church taking communion is the only public profession of faith that they will ever make after being accepted as a member of their church."

[SIZE=11pt]Which is why I asked the question:[/SIZE] So taking communion is a public profession of faith that a person makes AFTER being accepted as a member of their church?

[SIZE=11pt]That makes me, Tom55, wonder if Michael V Pardo thinks the process of being accepted as a member of a church is done in secret because what you wrote made it sound like taking communion is the ONLY PUBLIC profession of faith. Which is why I asked the question: So becoming a member of a church is done in secret and then communion is the big public reveal?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]When YOU make the statement, If a person participates without actually believing that Jesus gave His life up for them on the cross and that He will return and bring His own to Himself as He promised, then that person is taking the cup and the bread in an unworthy manner (in disbelief.) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Your statement leads me, Tom55, to the question: So if that person doesn't actually believe that Jesus gave His life up for them on the cross and that He will return and bring His own to Himself as He promised then why would they participate in communion? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I asked that question of YOU because I can't figure out why it would matter if that person takes the cup and the bread in an unworthy manner (in disbelief) AFTER they went thru the entire process of 'being accepted as a member of a church' when they never really believed anyway. If they never really believed while going thru the process of being accepted as a member of the church then communion means nothing to them either. According to you, Michael V Pardo, communion is just a symbolic or public event. So what does it really matter if they believe in Jesus or not since it (communion) doesn't really matter? You could take communion (bread) throw it on the ground and stomp on it. It doesn't really matter. Its just a symbol. So what does it matter if you really believe or not?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]I ask you, Michael V Pardo, this question again: Why would eating day old bread and drinking some cheap wine (symbols) in public bring damnation upon you but not "actually believing" before you [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]consume it bring damnation upon you?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]How can we participate in communion "unworthily" if it is just a symbol or public declaration? How can we "be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" if it is just a symbol or public declaration? Why do we need to "examine" ourselves before we participate in communion if it is just a symbol or public declaration? 1 Corinthians 11:27-29[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Respectfully, Tom55[/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]

 

[tom55]

I'm sorry, but eating human flesh and drinking human blood is a sin.
Jesus did not sin. If what you say actually happened, then you're saying Jesus did sin. Jesus was without sin; your interpretation is in error.
Nor would the eleven Jews who participated in the Last Supper willing do such a thing; they would have balked at eating human flesh and drinking human blood.
A common error in Christianity, even from early times, is that we eat our God.
That's disgusting.
Jesus is making an allegorical statement here of a deeper truth. Taking it superficially on the surface leads to serious error.

Jesus said I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died (reference to Exodus16:4). This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh. “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever” (John 6). Paul later re-affirms what Jesus said: I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Corinthians 10:15) So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27)

You, Marcus O'Reillius, are confusing what Jesus said to cannibalism. It (communion) obviously is not human flesh and blood! Communion is a participation in the spiritual flesh and blood of Jesus and it is a mystery how God performs this miracle but according to Jesus words, which were later re-affirmed by Paul and the early Christians (historical church writings), communion IS his flesh and blood. This belief and practice, which is backed up by scripture, was held for 1500 years before some heretics convinced weak minded people that it wasn't true.

I believe what Jesus, Paul and the early Christians practiced, preached and believed. If you choose to believe different then that is your choice.

 

[ATP]

You can't help yourself, can you? Can't even just say "the church" or "modern Israel", can you?

I would go with the church because Gal 6:15-16 is about the new creation, but it's still an analogy Phone.

 

[tom55]

Verse 63 is where Jesus reveals the meaning of His "hard saying".

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life." John 6:63 KJV

His Word must be in us, the "bread of life" and His redemption "through His blood", must be there as well.

It's purely symbolism, just as the grape juice and the bread are symbolic only. Round wafers which symbolizes the Sun God in paganism and the "womb" Monstrance in which it is placed which represents the union of the phallus and the womb - the crux and core of all occult worship in all its sexually licentiousness - is here dragged into Christianity and invested with "miraculous" attributes which possess no such thing. Any supernatural manifestations in the Catholic Eucharist, such as the wafer "host" turning into blood in the mouth of a recipient, is purely Satanic deception.

Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves