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Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Polar, May 11, 2009.

  1. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    1. Israel has everything to do with end time prophecy Psa 83, Ezek 38-39, Rev 12:6-17 NIV. Replacement theology is false.

    2. Israel is not the church. Gal 6:16 is saying that Israel and the church come from the same God, but not everyone will come to faith in this God. Israel is located in Israel and the church is spread all throughout the world. Are you moving to Judea Phone? Matt 24:16 NIV :rolleyes:

    Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary - the remnant of her seed—distinct in some sense from the woman herself. Satan's first effort was to root out the Christian Church, so that there should be no visible profession of Christianity. Foiled in this, he wars (Rev 11:7; 13:7) against the invisible Church, namely, "those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus" (A, B, and C omit "Christ"). These are "the remnant," or rest of her seed, as distinguished from her seed, "the man-child" (Rev 12:5), on one hand, and from mere professors on the other. The Church, in her beauty and unity (Israel at the head of Christendom, the whole forming one perfect Church), is now not manifested, but awaiting the manifestations of the sons of God at Christ's coming. Unable to destroy Christianity and the Church as a whole, Satan directs his enmity against true Christians, the elect remnant: the others he leaves unmolested.

    Easyenglish Commentary - Rev 12:17 The *dragon was angry because he could not reach the woman. So, he went to fight her other children.

    Christ came from the *Jews. He, the Son of God, was by birth a *Jew. Those who believed in him did not become *Jews. The children of the woman were both *Jews and those who were not *Jews. The *dragon could not hurt the *Jews. So, he attacked God’s people who were not *Jews.

    No that's wrong too. Replacement theology is false Phone. Israel will cease from being a nation when the sun, moon and stars cease from being in existence Jer 31:35-36 NIV, Psa 148:1-6 NIV.

    How do you think Israel became a nation and won the 1948 war and then took back Jerusalem in the 1967 six day war? Where is your faith Phone? Where is your testimony in Jesus Christ? :rolleyes:

    Psalm 83:16-18 NIV Cover their faces with shame, Lord, so that they will seek your name. 17May they ever be ashamed and dismayed; may they perish in disgrace. 18Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord—that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

    Jer 16:14-15 NIV / Jer 23:7-8 NIV “So then, the days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ 8but they will say, ‘As surely as the Lord lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.”

    Jer 31:35-36 NIV / Psalm 148:1-6 NIV This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—the Lord Almighty is his name: 36“Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will Israel ever cease being a nation before me.”

    Ezek 36:33 NIV “ ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt.

    Ezek 37:23 NIV They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

    Amos 9:14-15 NIV and I will bring my people Israel back from exile. “They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. 15I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,”

    Micah 2:12-13 NIV “I will surely gather all of you, Jacob; I will surely bring together the remnant of Israel. I will bring them together like sheep in a pen, like a flock in its pasture; the place will throng with people. 13The One who breaks open the way will go up before them; they will break through the gate and go out. Their King will pass through before them, the Lord at their head.”

    Zech 9:14-17 NIV Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south, 15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them. They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar. 16 The LORD their God will save his people on that day as a shepherd saves his flock. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown. 17 How attractive and beautiful they will be! Grain will make the young men thrive, and new wine the young women.

    Zech 10:6-12 NIV “I will strengthen Judah and save the tribes of Joseph. I will restore them because I have compassion on them. They will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them. 7 The Ephraimites will become like warriors, and their hearts will be glad as with wine. Their children will see it and be joyful; their hearts will rejoice in the LORD. 8 I will signal for them and gather them in. Surely I will redeem them; they will be as numerous as before. 9 Though I scatter them among the peoples, yet in distant lands they will remember me. They and their children will survive, and they will return. 10 I will bring them back from Egypt and gather them from Assyria. I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon, and there will not be room enough for them. 11 They will pass through the sea of trouble; the surging sea will be subdued and all the depths of the Nile will dry up. Assyria’s pride will be brought down and Egypt’s scepter will pass away. 12 I will strengthen them in the LORD and in his name they will live securely,” declares the LORD.

    Rom 11:25-27 NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

    Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

    Rev 12:13-17 NIV When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

    That's incorrect also. There is also an atonement for future Israel at the end of the 70th week. It is called the "day of atonement". The first four Feasts have already been completed, and the last three are still future...

    1. The Passover
    2. Unleavened Bread
    3. Firstfruits
    4. Feast of Weeks
    5. Feast of Trumpets
    6. Day of Atonement
    7. Feast of Tabernacles


    Lev 23:26-32 NIV The LORD said to Moses, 27 “The tenth day of this seventh month is the Day of Atonement. Hold a sacred assembly and deny yourselves, and present a food offering to the LORD. 28 Do not do any work on that day, because it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God. 29 Those who do not deny themselves on that day must be cut off from their people. 30 I will destroy from among their people anyone who does any work on that day. 31 You shall do no work at all. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live. 32 It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.”

    Ezek 16:59-63 NIV “ ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will deal with you as you deserve, because you have despised my oath by breaking the covenant. 60 Yet I will remember the covenant I made with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both those who are older than you and those who are younger. I will give them to you as daughters, but not on the basis of my covenant with you. 62 So I will establish my covenant with you, and you will know that I am the LORD. 63 Then, when I make atonement for you for all you have done, you will remember and be ashamed and never again open your mouth because of your humiliation, declares the Sovereign LORD.’ ”

    Ezek 36:33 NIV “ ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On the day I cleanse you from all your sins, I will resettle your towns, and the ruins will be rebuilt.

    Ezek 37:23 NIV They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

    Dan 9:20-24 NIV While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill—21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision: 24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

    Zech 3:9 NIV See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,’ says the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

    Zech 9:14-17 NIV Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south, 15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them. They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling the corners of the altar. 16 The LORD their God will save his people on that day as a shepherd saves his flock. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown. 17 How attractive and beautiful they will be! Grain will make the young men thrive, and new wine the young women.

    Zech 10:6-12 NIV “I will strengthen Judah and save the tribes of Joseph. I will restore them because I have compassion on them. They will be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the LORD their God and I will answer them. 7 The Ephraimites will become like warriors, and their hearts will be glad as with wine. Their children will see it and be joyful; their hearts will rejoice in the LORD. 8 I will signal for them and gather them in. Surely I will redeem them; they will be as numerous as before. 9 Though I scatter them among the peoples, yet in distant lands they will remember me. They and their children will survive, and they will return. 10 I will bring them back from Egypt and gather them from Assyria. I will bring them to Gilead and Lebanon, and there will not be room enough for them. 11 They will pass through the sea of trouble; the surging sea will be subdued and all the depths of the Nile will dry up. Assyria’s pride will be brought down and Egypt’s scepter will pass away. 12 I will strengthen them in the LORD and in his name they will live securely,” declares the LORD.

    Zech 14:4 NIV On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

    Rom 11:25-27 NIV I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

    - ATP
     
  2. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  3. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    "If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Not literal Israel.)

    "They are not all Israel that are of Israel." (Still not literal Israel.)

    "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart..." (Still not literal Israel.)

    "Peace be upon them (those who walk in Christ), even the Israel of God." (Paul's clear reference to the church as "the Israel of God".)

    "Jerusalem which is now...is in bondage, with her children, but Jerusalem which is above (where we church members are seated, according to Ephesians 2:6 KJV) is free."

    ATP, as you can see the 70 Weeks were a 490 year probation period for the Christ haters to shape up and present Christ to the world, but they hated Him and killed Him and hate Him to this day and will NEVER surrender to Him as a nation and no longer have anything to do with end time prophecy. The Church is Israel and the Antichrist yet sits in the church of God showing himself he is God.
     
  4. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Or maybe you can't commit to a God who is that forgiving and patient with people; something to think about. Are you moving to Judea phone? Matt 24:16 NIV.
     
  5. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    How can Israel succumb to the antichrist kingdom when they're too busy fleeing into the wilderness while being protected by God for 3 1/2 years?

    Matt 24:15-16 NIV “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

    Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

    Rev 12:13-16 NIV When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.
     
  6. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Amen! There is only one atonement. Hebrews 9:15

    Blessings!
     
  7. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    There is only one Atonement and only one people of God.
    I have posted the article below before. It was rudely rejected by Marcus, because it destroys the rapture theory.
    The true Christian Ekklesia is Israel:
    [SIZE=11pt]Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: the true Christian Church are designated by God to be Israelites. The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, only one Church, only one elect, whether they be Jew or Gentile by birth.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deut. 33:3, Ezra 3:11 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Eph. 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isa 63:8, Hosea 11:1[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Gal. 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalm 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Eze 34:12[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chron. 29:14-18[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Heb. 10:20-21, I Tim. 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deut. 27:9[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians are the priests of God: Isa. 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Rev. 5:10[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jer. 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Cor. 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Phil. 3:3, Col. 2:11[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chron. 20:7, Psalm 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Rom. 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deut. 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalm 105:7-10[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt] The New[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Covenant is with Christians: 1 Cor. 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation. The Jewish remnant will eventually accept Jesus as Messiah. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]The truth is proven by how it is true Christian believers of every tribe [of Israel], nation and language: Revelation 5:9-10 & 7:9, who gather in the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Hab. 3:12 They will be assigned to an appropriate Israelite tribe, according to each family’s characteristics. Then the 144,000 will be selected, 12,000 from each tribe, to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]This new nation in the Middle East, will be called Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 They will live in peace and prosperity and when a large army comes down from the North, God will destroy them. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Sometime later, the President of the One World Government will come to Beulah and convince ‘many’ of them to sign a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 11:27, Isaiah 28:14-15 This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age and is the 70th year of Daniel 9:24, then at the mid-point, the O.W.G. dictator will invade and conquer Beulah. Zech. 14:1-2, Daniel 11:30-32, which triggers the Great Tribulation of the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments. Rev. 12:7-13 But those Israelites who ‘faithful to their God’, will be taken to a place of safety, as described in Revelation 12:14. Then at the Return of Jesus, those faithful ones, the righteous ‘woman’ of Israel will experience a ‘rapture’ as they are gathered by the Lord’s angels ‘from the four winds’. Matthew 24:31 They will join the resurrected saints and will enjoy the great blessings of the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25 [79 scriptures][/SIZE]
     
  8. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    ATP, the woman of Revelation 12 is not Israel, it is the church, which fled into the wilderness for 1,260 years during the reign of Papal terror which slaughtered an estimated 150 MILLION Christians for refusing to go along with Papal dogmas, the wine in the cup of the Papal whore of Revelation 17. After the Papacy received the "deadly wound", the church emerged in America which was the launch pad for the greatest evangelistic thrust in all of church history.
     
  9. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    God was "70 times 7" patient with Israel from Artaxerxes' decree until the stoning of Stephen, and they blew it. They are done. "Spiritual Israel", the church, is now the recipient and depositor of the truth, the blessings, the lively oracles, and the promises, so clearly stated in the New Testament.

    "If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed." Only a blind fool would consider a nation which collectively hates Jesus with seething hatred as belonging to Christ.
     
  10. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    Why have you failed to produce even one historical source from the ECF that shows there was a belief that some Agent of Holiness is the Restrainer? Why is it that they unanimously taught that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire if something different was disseminated?

    And why are the ideas of Protestant Reformers, courageous, loyal men of God with whom we are not worthy to stand in the same room, dismissed as foolishness while the Jesuit ideas these men so soundly rejected are now embraced by a class of men who are so blind to the Satanic distractions of our day that they have little time to pray and study?
     
  11. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    No Angelina, there's two kinds of atonement.

    The atonement of sins for those who come to faith in Jesus Christ..Rom 3:25 NIV, Heb 2:17 NIV, 1 John 2:2 NIV, 1 John 4:10 NIV.

    And then there's the atonement of sins for Israel at the end of the 70th week on the Day of Atonement. The last three Feasts are future...

    Lev 23:26-32 NIV, Ezek 16:59-63 NIV, Ezek 36:33 NIV, Ezek 37:23 NIV, Dan 9:20-24 NIV, Zech 3:9 NIV, Zech 9:14-17 NIV, Zech 10:6-12 NIV, Zech 14:4 NIV, Rom 11:25-27 NIV

    1. The Passover
    2. Unleavened Bread
    3. Firstfruits
    4. Feast of Weeks
    5. Feast of Trumpets
    6. Day of Atonement
    7. Feast of Tabernacles


    No Phone, the woman in Rev 12 is Israel and is future.
    Rev 6-15 confirms the 70th week.
    Sorry, but your anti-semetic garbage is useless here.

    That's what I thought. You can't stand that God would be that patient and forgiving towards the Jews. Not only did God bring the Jews back into their land in 1948 and became a nation again after 1,900 years of exile, but they also took back Jerusalem in 1967. Not only that, when your muslim anti-semetic friends of yours try to take back Israel in Psalm 83 they are going to lose, badly.

    And after that, when Israel wins Psalm 83 war and captures more land, they are going to win Ezek 38-39 war and capture even more land and more riches for themselves. So is God done with Israel? Not even close.

    Psa 83:2-4 NIV See how your enemies growl, how your foes rear their heads. 3With cunning they conspire against your people; they plot against those you cherish. 4“Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation, so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”

    Psa 83:17-18 NIV May they ever be ashamed and dismayed; may they perish in disgrace. 18Let them know that you, whose name is the Lord—that you alone are the Most High over all the earth.

    Ezek 38:18 NIV This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign Lord.

    Ezek 38:21 NIV I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign Lord. Every man’s sword will be against his brother.

    Ezek 39:25:29 NIV “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will now restore the fortunes of Jacob and will have compassion on all the people of Israel, and I will be zealous for my holy name. 26They will forget their shame and all the unfaithfulness they showed toward me when they lived in safety in their land with no one to make them afraid. 27When I have brought them back from the nations and have gathered them from the countries of their enemies, I will be proved holy through them in the sight of many nations. 28Then they will know that I am the Lord their God, for though I sent them into exile among the nations, I will gather them to their own land, not leaving any behind. 29I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

    Michael the restrainer has to be taken out of the way in the middle of the 70th week at the abomination of desolation, so God can allow Satan to send the world (specifically nonbelievers) a powerful delusion when the Great Tribulation begins. God at this point has given up on them because of their wickedness and their refusal to believe the truth.

    2 Thess 2:10-12 NIV and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
     
  12. tom55

    tom55 Love your neighbor as yourself

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    "But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body"

    How can one eat and drink a symbol unworthily and bring damnation upon themselves if it is just a symbol??
     
  13. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    The bread Jesus used was the "hidden manna" within the tosh - which is also called the "bread of salvation."
    The wine Jesus used was the third cup in the ceremonial supper - (which points to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice) - and is called the "cup of redemption."

    When Jesus declares the "bread of salvation" is His Body,
    and the "cup of redemption" is His Blood -

    - Did the Jews eat His Flesh and drink His Blood?
    - Or did Jesus declare that His Body was Salvation and His Blood was Redemption?

    So when you remember to do this simple act, but your heart is far from the Lord and you haven't repented of your sins, no salvation is realized.
     
  14. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Taking communion is a form of profession of faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. For many people within the professing church taking communion is the only public profession of faith that they will ever make after being accepted as a member of their church. If a person participates without actually believing that Jesus gave His life up for them on the cross and that He will return and bring His own to Himself as He promised, then that person is taking the cup and the bread in an unworthy manner (in disbelief.) A symbol is significant when it has such meaning. Also there is a curse in the book of Zechariah against all who swear falsely in God's name and actually goes beyond that: 3. Then he said to me, "This is the curse that goes out over the face of the whole earth: `Every thief shall be expelled,' according to what is on this side of the scroll; and, `Every perjurer shall be expelled,' according to what is on that side of it.'' 4. "I will send out the curse,'' says the Lord of hosts; "It shall enter the house of the thief and the house of the one who swears falsely by My name. It shall remain in the midst of his house and consume it, with its timber and stones.'' Zechariah 5:3-4 You should note that the book of Zechariah speaks prophetically to the "church age".
    This isn't specifically about damnation as Christ told us that every sin can be forgiven except for that of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but lying about having believed Christ would fall into that category if unbelief extended to the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life. It is the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin and convinces of truth.
     
  15. tom55

    tom55 Love your neighbor as yourself

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    So taking communion is a public profession of faith that a person makes AFTER being accepted as a member of their church? So becoming a member of a church is done in secret and then communion is the big public reveal?

    So if that person doesn't actually believe that Jesus gave His life up for them on the cross and that He will return and bring His own to Himself as He promised then why would they participate in communion?

    Why would eating day old bread and drinking some cheap wine (symbols) in public bring damnation upon you but not "actually believing" before you consume it bring damnation upon you?
     
  16. tom55

    tom55 Love your neighbor as yourself

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    No!! The Christians ate His flesh and drank His blood. The Jews rejected him.
    He declared unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have no life in you! (among other things)
     
  17. Phoneman777

    Phoneman777 Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting that the only organization to interpret the command of Jesus to "eat My flesh and drink My blood" is the Catholic church, which punished with death millions who refused to believe that the wine and host underwent a "transubstantiation" at the Latin words of the priest, "This is My body, this is My blood."

    This, among many other reasons, is why the Protestant Reformers saw in the Papal power in Rome the Antichrist of prophecy. Their view that the Restrainer was the Roman Empire which restrained the rise of the Antichrist, which they saw as Papal Rome, is the only view that doesn't require "gap" fantasies and a deliberate disregard or de-emphasis of key historic church facts in order to establish competing views.
     
  18. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    You deny God will save the Jews in Psa 83 and Ezek 38-39?
     
  19. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    I'm sorry, but eating human flesh and drinking human blood is a sin.

    Jesus did not sin. If what you say actually happened, then you're saying Jesus did sin. Jesus was without sin; your interpretation is in error.

    Nor would the eleven Jews who participated in the Last Supper willing do such a thing; they would have balked at eating human flesh and drinking human blood.

    A common error in Christianity, even from early times, is that we eat our God.

    That's disgusting.

    Jesus is making an allegorical statement here of a deeper truth. Taking it superficially on the surface leads to serious error.
     
  20. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Never said that it did. Try reading the earlier post again, very slowly.
     
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