Who Is "the Restrainer" In 2 Thess. 2:6-7

[ATP]

Even though Paul uses the term 'Israel' in a lot of his writing, it is obvious he means just the Jewish people. He is referring to the 'blindness' of the Jews. And he uses 'gentile' to refer to all the other true Christian peoples, who would include those descendants of the other tribes of Israel. Ephesians 2:11-18 describes it well.
These facts are well known to most Bible scholars.
Only your determination to fit in rapture somewhere, anywhere, makes you have a separation between the Israel of God and the Church of God.

and now take a look at Rom 11:31, which states God having mercy on the Jews.

 

[ATP]

And proclaim to her, the woman, that she has received...

Isa 40:1-2 NIV Comfort, comfort my people, says your God. 2Speak tenderly to Jerusalem, and proclaim to her that her hard service has been completed, that her sin has been paid for, that she has received from the Lord’s hand double for all her sins.

Rev 12:6 NIV The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

 

[keras]

and now take a look at Rom 11:31, which states God having mercy on the Jews.

Yes, God will be merciful to the remnant of the Jews. They will be a holy seed in the Land. Isaiah 6:13 The rest will die, Isaiah 22:14, Luke 19:27

ATP, you need to explain how your quotes in # 462 are relevant to the issue of who is Israel. Who do you think is the 'woman'?

Marcus, every promise to Israel is to the Lord's righteous people. Who are........?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Marcus, every promise to Israel is to the Lord's righteous people. Who are........?

Again sez you, who also sez the sun explodes and kills people on a day God says He will heal whom He has bruised.

That ain't us rabbi keras; we are not included in God's Wrath. Paul said that.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Who do you think is the 'woman'?

The woman of Rev 12 is Israel: natural borne of the12 tribes. Genesis 37:9-11.

 

[Marilyn C]

Let's look at this from a perspective of plain old, down to earth, common sense Christianity:
In Galatians 6, Paul's entire focus is on Christ:

• the law of Christ (vs. 2)
• everlasting life by the indwelling Spirit of Christ (vs. 8)
• persecution by reason of the Cross of Christ (vs. 12)
• the glory which is found in the Cross of Christ (vs. 14)
• the rule that we are new creatures in Christ (vs. 15)
• and finally, the grace of Christ (vs. 18).

Regarding his closing blessing upon the body of Christ and "the Israel of God" in question, unless you are a Catholic who believes the blasphemous statement found in the priest's handbook, Dignities and Duties of the Priest, "The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it," you will no doubt understand that a pronounced blessing by an individual is conditional upon the will of God. Therefore, why would Paul here be found pronouncing "peace" and "mercy" on literal Israel if this same Paul - who had such an intimate knowledge and experience with God so much so that he had to receive a thorn in the flesh just to keep him humble - had foreknowledge of the "wrath" which was to come upon them (1 Thessalonians 2:16 KJV), "death" which was to come upon them (Acts 13:46 KJV), destruction which was to come upon them (Matthew 24), etc.?

While it is not impossible that Paul could very well be including apostate Israel in his blessing, is it really intellectually honest, as well as hermeneutically sound, to claim that he is, rather than seeing "the Israel of God" as having to do with what the rest of the entire chapter focus has to do: Christ?

Hi Phoneman777,

I hear what you are saying & although it sounds feasible, we need to take into account the transition time from Pentecost to Israel`s final rejection of Christ. As we know the Apostle Peter declared to Israel –

`Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord & Christ.` (Acts 2: 36)

Then about 38 years later (30 AD to 68 AD) we read of the Apostle Paul explaining, testifying & persuading the leaders of the Jews concerning Christ their Messiah.

`And it came to pass....that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together....he explained & solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses & the Prophets.....some were persuaded....some disbelieved....they did not agree among themselves, they departed...` (Acts 28: 17, 23 – 25)

So not only did the leaders of Israel reject Jesus their Messiah, (on earth) they also rejected the Holy Spirit who would have led them to their Messiah. Thus we see there was a transition time when Israel as a nation could have received their Messiah.

The Apostle Paul thus speaks of the Israel of God when writing the letter to the Galatians as the nation had not yet rejected the Holy Spirit`s leading them to their Messiah.

Marilyn.

 

[blessedhope]

I will do a thread on this . The church is the restrainer. its a very intro subject and it more then skin deep! > I will throw you out a thought >no one will be sealed in the trib. but some will be saved so there has to be the ghost at work. And don't come back on me that yes there is sealing in the trib {Only the 144>>>Jews}

 

[blessedhope]

How Pathetic the Bride of Christ is , That is whats holding the anti_christ back.

 

[keras]

Again sez you, who also sez the sun explodes and kills people on a day God says He will heal whom He has bruised.

That ain't us rabbi keras; we are not included in God's Wrath. Paul said that.

Isaiah 30:26 will happen exactly as described. Why is that a problem with you?

Re God's wrath: Jesus said: That Day will come upon everyone the whole world over......Luke 21:34
Paul said: ...we must undergo many hardships. Acts 14:22
Peter said: ...the fiery ordeal will come to test you.... 2 Peter 3:12
Plus many others telling us we will face trials and testing. Your quote simply means that provided we stand firm in our faith, the Lord will protect us.

 

[michaelvpardo]

It seems like this thread is pretty far off topic, but as the author of the original post is no longer here and the current direction is leading to something less than polite discussion, I have a question with regard to this Israel versus the Church controversy.
I started reading through the gospel of Matthew again last night and was reading up through chapter 12 this morning and had some thoughts on chapter 10. Chapter 10 is the chapter in which Jesus called His 12 chosen Apostles together, gave them authority to perform miraculous signs, and sent them off to travel through the towns and districts of Israel preaching the gospel of the kingdom. I've heard many of the verses in this chapter applied to the church and we see in the book of the Acts of the Apostles that this authority given by Jesus continued after His death and resurrection. Much debate continues as to whether miraculous powers were given only to the Apostles to establish their authority or whether the Lord continues to use miraculous signs through His born again children to establish their testimony to an unbelieving world. I am inclined to believe the latter.
The two verses that caught my attention in particular this morning were these:
22. "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23. "But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:22-23
Now verse 23 implies that this passage is intended only for the 12 Apostles and only for that time during the ministry of our Lord "in the flesh," yet there are more than a few verses dealing with "end times" that suggest that the persecution of the Church will continue until Christ's return in glory. How are we to understand verse 22 if it applies to the ministry of the gospel up until Christ's return? If "he who endures to the end will be saved" continues to apply to the church (as suggested in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ) and is taught as the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, then what specifically does "the end" refer to?
I think that this falls into the middle of the present controversy, so rather than give my own opinion, how would you respond?

 

[keras]

Thanks Michael, I hope you notice that it is those whose beliefs are challenged and are unable to provide scriptural proofs for their false ideas, that are 'less than polite'.

I see Matthew 10:22 as applying to every living person; the end of their lives. To those Jesus was speaking to and to us now: to endure through personal trials now and through great 'tribulations' to come. The Disciples endured until the end, they were all killed except John, so must we stand firm in our faith, whatever happens.

Re who is Israel, there should be no argument: true righteous believers are the Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29
There is only one people of God: John 10:16, John 17:22-23, 1 Corinthians 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6 and only a tiny remnant of the Jews will remain after the Lord's Day of wrath to join them. Isaiah 4:3

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Isaiah 30:26 will happen exactly as described. Why is that a problem with you?

I see you provide no Scriptural support for your false idea rabbi keras.
My problem with your false teaching is that it is false.
You teach falsely that Isaiah 30:26 happens on the Day of the Lord.
You teach falsely that Isaiah 30:26 means the sun explodes and burns the earth.

You also teach falsely that all the Old Testament Wrath that falls on the Jews, falls on us because of your blanket equation of every mention of "Israel" = the Church. That is an idiotic extrapolation of the Church being the "true" Israel taken beyond its layered nuance and blindly being applied everywhere, just as you teach all time must be on a one day = a thousand years and take half an hour and stretch it into years. Such foolishness!

Again, Paul taught that we are not to endure God's Wrath which first befalls upon unbelieving Israel and then upon the Gentiles.

1Th 1:10 "and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come."
1Th 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

We, the Church, do not go through God's Wrath.
And the protection afforded to Israel, is for those Jews whom God draws to Him in the Millennium.
And so "All of Israel will be saved."

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Now verse 23 implies that this passage is intended only for the 12 Apostles and only for that time during the ministry of our Lord "in the flesh," yet there are more than a few verses dealing with "end times" that suggest that the persecution of the Church will continue until Christ's return in glory. How are we to understand verse 22 if it applies to the ministry of the gospel up until Christ's return? If "he who endures to the end will be saved" continues to apply to the church (as suggested in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ) and is taught as the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, then what specifically does "the end" refer to?

Verse 23 sets forth a proposition not that they go through all the cities, but that they will not have had to escape all the cities before He returns.

In the sense of verse 22, each person must continue in the faith to the end, whether they make it to "the end" or just the end of their life.

Thus the sense of imminence implied for the listener is only one of two ways this verse can be taken.

So the "end" can refer to their end, or to the end times. It can be taken either way. The truth of the statement is not changed by either way it is viewed, but it can be misconstrued if only taken one way and wholly rejections the other.

 

[Marilyn C]

It seems like this thread is pretty far off topic, but as the author of the original post is no longer here and the current direction is leading to something less than polite discussion, I have a question with regard to this Israel versus the Church controversy.
I started reading through the gospel of Matthew again last night and was reading up through chapter 12 this morning and had some thoughts on chapter 10. Chapter 10 is the chapter in which Jesus called His 12 chosen Apostles together, gave them authority to perform miraculous signs, and sent them off to travel through the towns and districts of Israel preaching the gospel of the kingdom. I've heard many of the verses in this chapter applied to the church and we see in the book of the Acts of the Apostles that this authority given by Jesus continued after His death and resurrection. Much debate continues as to whether miraculous powers were given only to the Apostles to establish their authority or whether the Lord continues to use miraculous signs through His born again children to establish their testimony to an unbelieving world. I am inclined to believe the latter.
The two verses that caught my attention in particular this morning were these:
22. "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23. "But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Matthew 10:22-23
Now verse 23 implies that this passage is intended only for the 12 Apostles and only for that time during the ministry of our Lord "in the flesh," yet there are more than a few verses dealing with "end times" that suggest that the persecution of the Church will continue until Christ's return in glory. How are we to understand verse 22 if it applies to the ministry of the gospel up until Christ's return? If "he who endures to the end will be saved" continues to apply to the church (as suggested in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ) and is taught as the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, then what specifically does "the end" refer to?
I think that this falls into the middle of the present controversy, so rather than give my own opinion, how would you respond?

Hi Michael,

We all know that one of the fundamental rules of scripture is to read in context, -

`These 12 Jesus sent out & commanded them saying, "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, & do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....` (Matt. 10: 5)

So clearly we see that it is Jesus who is sending out the 12 disciples & telling them specifically WHERE to go & what to say (v. 7 f ).

One of the glaring errors people do when reading God`s word is to make the Body of Christ the centre of the bible when Christ is, - His character & His purposes.

Marilyn.

 

[keras]

I shouldn't bother to reply to Marcus. his rants and wrong conclusions are enough for anyone to dismiss him.

But for the record, Isaiah 30:26 is proved to be the Day of the Lord's wrath, by Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30. Paralleled by many other prophesies, esp the Sixth Seal cosmic events.
And who experiences that Day? Everyone then living on earth: Luke 21:35, Jeremiah 25:29, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:15 No removal to heaven mentioned anywhere.

Marilyn, your quote of Matthew 10:5 specifies the House of Israel. It was, and is again now; the House of Judah that occupies the holy Land.
The House of Israel was exiled and remains today scattered among the nations. Paul and the others did convert Gentiles to Christianity. Peter with Cornelius and Philip with the eunuch are examples. Were they disobeying Jesus' command? No, they knew where the 10 tribes were, as did Josephus and it is them who have become Christians.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman777,

I hear what you are saying & although it sounds feasible, we need to take into account the transition time from Pentecost to Israel`s final rejection of Christ. As we know the Apostle Peter declared to Israel –

`Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord & Christ.` (Acts 2: 36)

Then about 38 years later (30 AD to 68 AD) we read of the Apostle Paul explaining, testifying & persuading the leaders of the Jews concerning Christ their Messiah.

`And it came to pass....that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together....he explained & solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses & the Prophets.....some were persuaded....some disbelieved....they did not agree among themselves, they departed...` (Acts 28: 17, 23 – 25)

So not only did the leaders of Israel reject Jesus their Messiah, (on earth) they also rejected the Holy Spirit who would have led them to their Messiah. Thus we see there was a transition time when Israel as a nation could have received their Messiah.

The Apostle Paul thus speaks of the Israel of God when writing the letter to the Galatians as the nation had not yet rejected the Holy Spirit`s leading them to their Messiah.

Marilyn.

Marilyn, while I agree that the Jews did corporately reject the Messiah, I cannot see where Acts 28 can be that which marks this. Rather, the 70 Weeks which applied to the Jews as a nation is found expiring in 34 A.D., 3 1/2 years after the Cross, which is marked by the monumental event of God raising up Paul to take the Gospel to the Gentiles immediately after the Jewish leaders corporately and nationally rejected Stephen's preaching of the Messiah to them and dragged him out and murdered him by their own hands. Acts 13:46 KJV finds Paul declaring to the Jewish leaders that "seeing you have judged yourselves worthy of death, lo, we turn to the Gentiles", which occurred much earlier than Acts 28. What do you think?

 

[Phoneman777]

The woman of Rev 12 is Israel: natural borne of the12 tribes. Genesis 37:9-11.

The prophecy declares that the "woman" flees into the wilderness for 1,260 days (years). Literal Israel didn't flee anywhere for 1,260 years - at best, it can be argued that she fled for 1,878 years if one chooses to believe that God had a hand in the 1948 "rebirth" of literal Israel.

However, history well records the 1,260 years flight of the church from the face of the Papacy, when in 538 A.D. the newly established Papacy began to persecute with unprecedented fury God's true church until it was abolished in 1798 A.D., when the true church re-emerged and began the greatest end time evangelistic push the world has ever seen.

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn, while I agree that the Jews did corporately reject the Messiah, I cannot see where Acts 28 can be that which marks this. Rather, the 70 Weeks which applied to the Jews as a nation is found expiring in 34 A.D., 3 1/2 years after the Cross, which is marked by the monumental event of God raising up Paul to take the Gospel to the Gentiles immediately after the Jewish leaders corporately and nationally rejected Stephen's preaching of the Messiah to them and dragged him out and murdered him by their own hands. Acts 13:46 KJV finds Paul declaring to the Jewish leaders that "seeing you have judged yourselves worthy of death, lo, we turn to the Gentiles", which occurred much earlier than Acts 28. What do you think?

Hi Phoneman777,

Thank you for asking. I may not have been very clear previously. So we both agree that the Jews corporately rejected their Messiah & crucified Him. Now after Pentecost there was a period of time when by the Holy Spirit they could have repented & received that the Jesus they rejected was the Lord & the Christ. This period was about 38 years when finally the leaders of the Jews came to Paul, who by the Holy Spirit `explained, & solemnly testified....persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses & the Prophets, from morning till evening.` (Acts 28: 23)

Some leaders were persuaded but some not. Thus as a nation they did not receive the Lord by the Holy Spirit`s persuading. Paul says -

`The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, saying, "Go to this people & say: "hearing you will hear, & shall not understand; & seeing you will see, & not perceive; for the heart of this people has grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, & their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes & hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart & turn, so that I should heal them."

Therefore let it be known to you that salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles & they will hear it!" (Acts. 28: 25 - 28)

Israel had an opportunity by the Holy Spirit to turn again & repent. But they rejected the Holy Spirit who would have led them to Christ.

As to the Acts 13: 46 reference, we see that Paul was referring specifically to the Jews of Antioch & not the whole nation of Israel.

Now as concerning the 70 Weeks (of Daniel) would you like to discuss that on another thread?

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

I shouldn't bother to reply to Marcus. his rants and wrong conclusions are enough for anyone to dismiss him.

But for the record, Isaiah 30:26 is proved to be the Day of the Lord's wrath, by Isaiah 30:26-28 & 30. Paralleled by many other prophesies, esp the Sixth Seal cosmic events.
And who experiences that Day? Everyone then living on earth: Luke 21:35, Jeremiah 25:29, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:15 No removal to heaven mentioned anywhere.

Marilyn, your quote of Matthew 10:5 specifies the House of Israel. It was, and is again now; the House of Judah that occupies the holy Land.
The House of Israel was exiled and remains today scattered among the nations. Paul and the others did convert Gentiles to Christianity. Peter with Cornelius and Philip with the eunuch are examples. Were they disobeying Jesus' command? No, they knew where the 10 tribes were, as did Josephus and it is them who have become Christians.

Hi keras,

Pleased to meet you & have a chat. Now as to who is in the land of Israel -

`Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the WHOLE HOUSE of Israel.......I will open your graves ....& bring you into the land of Israel.` (Ez. 37: 11 & 12)

`It shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people who are left.....He will...assemble the outcasts of Israel, & gather together the dispersed of Judah...` (Isaiah 11: 11 & 12)

Marilyn.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi Phoneman777,

Thank you for asking. I may not have been very clear previously. So we both agree that the Jews corporately rejected their Messiah & crucified Him. Now after Pentecost there was a period of time when by the Holy Spirit they could have repented & received that the Jesus they rejected was the Lord & the Christ. This period was about 38 years when finally the leaders of the Jews came to Paul, who by the Holy Spirit `explained, & solemnly testified....persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses & the Prophets, from morning till evening.` (Acts 28: 23)

Some leaders were persuaded but some not. Thus as a nation they did not receive the Lord by the Holy Spirit`s persuading. Paul says -

`The Holy Spirit spoke rightly through Isaiah the prophet to our fathers, saying, "Go to this people & say: "hearing you will hear, & shall not understand; & seeing you will see, & not perceive; for the heart of this people has grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, & their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes & hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart & turn, so that I should heal them."

Therefore let it be known to you that salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles & they will hear it!" (Acts. 28: 25 - 28)

Israel had an opportunity by the Holy Spirit to turn again & repent. But they rejected the Holy Spirit who would have led them to Christ.

As to the Acts 13: 46 reference, we see that Paul was referring specifically to the Jews of Antioch & not the whole nation of Israel.

Now as concerning the 70 Weeks (of Daniel) would you like to discuss that on another thread?

Marilyn.

That's OK, but I will add an addendum regarding the 70 Weeks. I don't see where 38 years is established b/c Paul's meeting is with Roman Jews, not those of Jerusalem, as well as the fact that Paul had already informed the Jews that the Gospel had been redirected to the Gentiles, the very fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy ("...the kingdom of God shall be taken from you..."). To me, Acts 28 pales in comparison to the end of the 70 Weeks as the probationary period of the Jews.

The 70 Weeks are seen by many Protestant scholars as having been fulfilled in the past by Jesus Christ, not Antichrist. If you'd like to speak further on this, I would be happy to do so