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Who is the Whore of babylon

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Andrew Kind, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Yourself, yes BOL even the illiterate know who you are. All you are exposing is how sad the catholic church is, and if you are it representative, God forbid anyone Join.

    Luk_11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
     
  2. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmmmmm, I guess you were unaware of all of the illegal sex and guns, etc going on in your cult (aggressivechristianity.net).

    You really need to stay on top of this kind of thing before you go around pointing fingers at everybody else.
    There's enough to clean up in your OWN back yard. And YOU have the nerve to accuse others of hypocrisy . . .
     
  3. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    They did NOT stone him for blasphemy or for claiming to be God. He did neither. Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of John 8 shows that Yeshua;

    1) accused the Pharisees of "judging after the flesh" (vs.15).
    2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
    3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
    4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
    5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
    6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
    7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
    8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
    9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
    10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
    11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

    Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua's words leading
    them to believe;

    1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
    2) Yeshua had a devil (vs.52).
    3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
    4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

    Yeshua's words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn't restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn't take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, "ego eimi," but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham. They sought to stone him illegally.

    Psalms 2:7 identifies the Father as "YHWH". You say the Son is "YHWH". Therefore, you are saying the Son is the Father.

    Neither verse gives the Apostles authority to change or abolish any of YHWH's commandments. The traditions transmitted orally or by letter did not abrogate YHWH's laws.


    Not allowing people outside the Body of Messiah to judge us means we are no longer bound by the law?? This passage shows the Colossians were keeping the holy days, but were allowing unbelievers to judge them as to how they kept them. Paul straightened the problem out.
     
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting how you read Col. 2:16-17 - yet have absolutely ZERO understanding of it.
    The Apostles didn't "abolish" anything. Christ FULFILLED the Law (Matt. 5:17, Col. 2:16-17).

    As for YHWH - He is a TRIUNE Godhead.
    Genesis 1:26
    Then God said, "Let US make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

    Finally - it is clear to just about every theologian on the plant - except those of you who espouse the anti-Trinitarian heresy - that the Pharisees picked up stones to kill Jesus because they believed he blasphemed God by claiming to BE Him.
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    I understand it perfectly because I don't add words to the text or change the meaning of words to make it say what I want it to say as lawless translators have done.


    As usual, you read whatever you want into a text. Here you read the Son into the text. You study Scripture like a child.

    Of course ignorant trinitarian "theologians" would say he was claiming to be God.
     
  6. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Then, why don't YOU enlighten me and tell me what it means??
    Sooooooo - ALL Theologians - except for SDA theologians are "ignorant"??
     
  7. Triumph1300

    Triumph1300 Well-Known Member

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    I found that theologians usually mess up the gospel message, which is a simple message.
    They are the ones that believe only "they" have the ability to figure out the gospel message.
    Yet an eight year old child can understand it.
     
  8. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Ye something to do with
    1Co_1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

    and again

    1Co_1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

    and one more

    1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
     
  9. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Really??

    2 Pet. 3:16
    He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    The mistake that the Scriptures are all so "easy" to understand is what gave birth to the tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant factions that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim to teach the "Truth".
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019
  10. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Colossians 2:14-17 is used to prove that the weekly Sabbath as well as annual Sabbaths have been nailed to the cross. This view is incorrect and is based on several mistranslations, added words not found in any Greek texts, and poor Bible exegesis.

    Let's first determine the context of chapter two. In verses 4 and 8 Paul warns the Colossians about deceivers. Then again, in verse 18, Paul gives his final warning about these same deceivers. In what way were they trying to deceive the Colossians? Verse 8 tells us that they were trying to exalt the traditions of men over the Messiah (verses 8 & 19).

    Notice carefully the context; the traditions of men in verse 8, 18, and 22. The verses that occur between 8 and 22 must be understood based on the context of the traditions of men.

    Now we can understand the key word in Colossians 2:14, "ordinances." The Greek word for ordinances here is a form of the root word "dogma" which means man-made rules, laws, commandments, precepts, etc. Paul is not talking about YHWH's ordinances in this verse. He is talking about man's ordinances or traditions. This same word is used in Colossians 2:20 pertaining to the doctrines and commandments of men; in Luke 2:1 pertaining to a decree from Caesar Augustus; in Acts 17:7 pertaining to a decree from Caesar; and in Ephesians 2:15, which again refers to man made commandments. Compare the word dogma with the Greek word that pertains to YHWH's ordinances, "dikaioma."

    This word dikaioma was used in Luke 1:6 pertaining to the ordinances of YHWH and in Hebrews 9:1,10 pertaining once again to YHWH's ordinances. Therefore, Paul is saying in verse 14 that the traditions and commandments of men are the issue, not YHWH's laws. But what was nailed to the cross? The Greek construction shows that the "handwriting" was nailed, not the ordinances. The handwriting or, in Greek, the "cheirographon" was a certificate of debt. Whenever a man sins against YHWH his sin is imputed against him (Romans 4:7,8). When men exalt the traditions of men over the commandments of YHWH, as the Pharisees did, for example, they sin against YHWH. The Messiah became sin for us and when He was nailed to the tree so were the sins that were imputed against us. YHWH's holy ordinances were not nailed to the tree, the certificate of debt resulting in our death sentence was nailed to the tree. That is why Paul said the Colossians were "dead in your sins" in verse 13. The principalities and powers of verse 15 caused the people to sin by their man-made laws but Messiah was victorious over them.

    This brings us to the crucial verse 16. It was the deceivers of verses 4, 8, and 18 that were judging the Colossians regarding the things mentioned in verse 16. They had been imposing their man-made commandments and traditions upon the Colossians. Paul told them not to allow anyone to judge them concerning those matters. An important addition was made in the KJV that does not appear in any Greek manuscript. The word "is " in verse 17 was added, which changes the meaning of Paul's statement. That is why it is written in italics. Retaining the word "is" implies the thought of shadow vs. reality. In other words, Messiah fulfilled the shadow of the things mentioned in verse 16. However, if you remove the added word "is", it implies that we should not let any man outside the body of Messiah judge us in respect to these things. Indeed that is in line with the context of Paul's previous statements. Notice Colossians 1:18 & 24 and Colossians 2:19, all of which teach us that the Body of Messiah is the church or all true believers. Colossians 2:16-17 should be understood as follows;

    "Let no man therefore judge you ... but the Body of Messiah (Christ)."

    We are not to allow anyone outside of the Body of Christ judge us as to how we observe Sabbaths, Feasts, etc. Only fellow believers that have the Spirit of Messiah in them can do so.

    Verse 17 states that these things "are" a shadow of things "to come" not that they "were" a shadow that was now fulfilled. Paul wrote this epistle approximately 30 years after Messiah's death and resurrection and yet he still spoke of them as unfulfilled shadows of something in the future. They all point to some aspect of YHWH's plan of salvation for mankind.

    I am not an SDA or a JW. Why haven't you learned that by now? I said it several times. Any "theologian" who teaches the trinity as truth is ignorant of that subject. That includes SDAs since they believe the trinity doctrine as well.
     
  11. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Your ENTIRE argument collapses in the phrase "The reality is in Christ". in verse 17.
    Paul wrote that these things "are" a shadow of things that WERE (what was) to come - and that they were all FULFILLED in Christ anyway.

    Finally - I thought you were going to give me your interpretation of the other passage I gave you regarding the unrevealed Trinity . . .

    Genesis 1:26
    Then God said, "Let US make mankind in OUR image, in OUR likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
     
  12. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly what I meant when I wrote I don't add words to the text or change the meaning of words to make it say what I want it to say. You add "that WERE (what was)" to come. The Greek says no such thing.

    upload_2019-2-18_11-2-31.png

    Notice also the Greek word soma means "BODY", not "the reality is in".

    Notice that verse 27 says,

    "So God created man in His own image (not, "Their own image"), in the image of God created He (not, "they"") him; male and female created He (not, "they") them."
    Why isn't the phrase "in Their own image" used? If verse 26 had any theological importance, it would certainly have been carried over into verse 27.

    Again, in Genesis 11:7,8, "us" is used and yet YHWH alone scattered them abroad. According to Job 38:4-7, "the sons of Elohim shouted for joy" when YHWH created the earth. This doubtless refers to the angels who were also present at the creation of man. YHWH could be speaking to them, in Genesis 1:26, using the plural of majesty. An example of this is found in Ezra 4:18; "The letter which you sent unto us has been plainly read before me." In this case, a letter was written strictly to King Artaxerxes and no one else (vs. 11). Yet the King speaks as though it was written to others as well. Another example would be the Queen of England saying, "We, the Queen of England, . . .".

    Genesis 1:26 can also be understood in the sense of someone saying, "Let us drive to the lake for a picnic," and yet, only the speaker does the driving. To believe YHWH is talking to His supposedly pre-existent Son is an assumption. It is reading into the text something that it does not say. The fact that "Elohim" is used thousands of times in Scripture with singular pronouns and verbs shows that "Elohim" is a single being with a plural title out of respect and majesty.
     
  13. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Once again - Greek is NOT English.
    Strong's explains the phrase:

    tn Grk “but the body of Christ.” The term body here, when used in contrast to shadow (σκιά, skia) indicates the opposite meaning, i.e., the reality or substance itself.
    tn The genitive τοῦ Χριστοῦ (tou Christou) is appositional and translated as such: the reality is Christ.”

    In "THEIR" own image would imply that there is more than ONE God.

    As for your asinine reach that God was including the Angels in the phrase "Let US make man in OUR image" - we are NOT made in the image of the Angels. Gen 1:27 states explicitly that we are made in the image of GOD - not somebody else.

    Finally - the Son ALWAYS existed (John 1:1, Rev. 13:8).
     
  14. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Please site the exact reference where you got that BS from. I know my original Strong's Concordance does not contain that BS.


    How do you know angels are not made in His image as well?

    Rev 13:8 says no such thing and John 1:1 says it ONLY if you read the Son into the text. I know you love to do that with all sorts of verses.
     
  15. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    "BS"??
    Temper, temper . . .


    I used NETBible as my source, which uses Strong's Greek Concordance as a resource.
    Rev. 13:8 says that the Lamb (Christ) was slain before the foundations of the world.
    In case you forgot - God is OUTSIDE of time (2 Pet. 3:8).

    As for John 1:1 - it is speaking of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God.
    You see - unlike YOU, I don't stop at verse 1. I keep reading about this "Word" who is being spoken of in verse 1 - ALL the way through verse 18.
    It makes it BLINDINGLY CLEAR who is being spoken of - and it is a WHO - not a WHAT.
     
  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Just as I suspected. Those are NOT notes from Strong's Concordance, but notes from the NETBible's deceived authors/"scholars". You will never find James Strong saying such foolishness.

    Yes, but Yeshua was not. He was slain in God's plan of salvation, but it did not become reality until the appointed time had come thousands of years later.

    Verses 1-5 talk about the Father's spoken words and thoughts through which He created everything (Psalms 33:6, 9). Verse 14 says those spoken words and thoughts became Yeshua. The same way YHWH's spoken words and thoughts (And Elohim said ...) became the living creatures on the 5th day, His spoken words and thoughts became His Son.
     
  17. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    According to NETBible - they use Strong's Greek Concordance.
    WRONG.

    John 1-5 talks about the Word being a Person, who is referred to as "Him" and "He".
    It is NOT describing the spoken Word of God.

    Verse 14 merely states that the Word, who ALWAYS existed and was GOD - became flesh.
    Context is NOT your friend . . .
     
  18. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    The NET Bible part you quoted said, "tn Grk “but the body of Christ.” The term body here, when used in contrast to shadow (σκιά, skia) indicates theopposite meaning, i.e., the reality or substance itself."

    The "NETBible" stand for the New English Translation. The "tn" at the beginning of the note stands for "Translator's notes". Those are notes done by the translators of the New English Bible, not James Strong.

    Yes, that is what modern English Bibles say now that the trinity and deity of Christ doctrines are being heavily pushed on unsuspecting people. Earlier English translations like Tyndale's, Geneva Bible, Matthew's Bible, The Great Bible, The Bishop's Bible, etc., all use "it" instead of "him".
    Here is the Geneva Bible translation which you can download on eSword. The others translate the passage similarly.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.
    John 1:2 This same was in the beginning with God.
    John 1:3 All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
    John 1:4 In it was life, and that life was the light of men. ​
     
  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    And once again - the NT was NOT written in English - but Koine Greek.

    The Greek word used in these verses is αὐτὸ. "This" or "it" are SECONDARY definitions.
    The PRIMARY definition is: "himself, herself, themselves". This is the root word for "Autobiography" - which is a biography written by the PERSON themselves.

    Oh, and by the way - Wycliffe's Bible, which is older than ALL of the ones YOU listed refers to the Word as "Him" - as are the KJV and Douay Rheims.
     
  20. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Thayer's Definition:
    1) himself, herself, themselves, itself
    2) he, she, it

    LSJ Definition:
    reflexive Pron., self:—in oblique cases used for the personal Pron., him, her, it:

    Wycliffe translated from the Latin Vulgate, not the Greek. The KJV and the Douay Rheims are younger than the versions I listed and the Douay Rheims was translated from the Latin Vulgate as well.
     
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