Who Really Are The 144,000?

[Earburner]

But it isn't.
People either believe what the Prophetic Word says, or they make up weird and wonderful fables.

The Bible is quite clear on what God has planned for our future. Believe it or not, your choice.

Much of biblical prophecy is highly symbolic and coded, of which can only be discerned by "the mind of Christ within us", for our understanding.1 Cor. 2:16.
Paul also said in verses 12-13, that we are to "compare spiritual things with spiritual". In other words, we are not to compare spiritual things with anything physical, that might appear to be similar to this world!

There are three manifestations of Jesus:
First- in mortal flesh, of His birth.
Second- by His Spirit, ever since Pentecost.
Third- in His Immortality, upon His Glorious return from Heaven.
All of that was kept secret by God from the foundation of the world, until Jesus' first manifestation in the flesh. Therefore, in all the OT. prophecies, none of the prophets were able to discern, or even allowed to know in which of the three manifestations of Christ, their prophecies would be fulfilled.

So then, for all that was written about Jesus in the OT, it is hidden within the verbage about the Jews.
John 5
[39] Search the [OT] scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[John839]

You can go to ten different Churches and you may hear ten different interpretations of just who the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are. For some reason, those who don't actually know, because they don't heed what is written there in Rev.7 as being literal, come up with all sorts of wild concoctions for who it means. But stick to God's Word as written, and it becomes revealed in simplicity.

Rev 7:1-4
7 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

That above description is about the very end of this present world. That is what those above symbols point to, the destruction of 2 Peter 3:10 on the "day of the Lord", which is the LAST DAY of this present world. Those 4 angels represent the power to go forth on that last day.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

That is revealing a hold on those 4 angels letting the destruction on the last day loose. Before any of that, God has decreed that HIS servants be SEALED with HIS SEAL in their foreheads.


When you get to Revelation 9, you should then understand more about this specific 'sealing' of those with God's Seal...

Rev 9:3-4
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
KJV

Those locusts are allowed to sting ONLY those NOT SEALED with God's SEAL.

That means the 144,000 that are SEALED with GOD's Seal in their foreheads CANNOT be stung by those locusts.

What is that locust sting? Well, since they cannot hurt any green thing, nor kill, and later Rev.9 shows their power is in their MOUTHS, that means the 'sting' is pointing to WORDS OF DECEPTION out of their mouths. And the ONLY ones that will not be subject to that stinging are Christ's faithful elect, His faithful CHURCH.


Thus the 144,000 represent SEALED Israelites of 12,000 from each of those 12 tribes mentioned there in Revelation 7. They are SEALED with GOD's Seal in prep for the great tribulation. They are part of Christ's Church, prior to the "great tribulation", and through the "great tribulation", and all the way up to Christ's coming to gather His faithful Church on the last day of this world.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
KJV


Then at Revelation 7:9, John is shown a "great multitude" that came out of "great tribulation". That DOES NOT MEAN A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE. John is shown those having gone through... the great tribulation also, like those 144,000 of the tribes of Israel. And that is why the "great multitude" is shown to John after the fact, their standing before the throne of God and Jesus AFTER He has returned, a reference to the Eternity. That means, that "great multitude" is SEALED with GOD'S SEAL also, in prep to go through the "great tribulation" and be overcomers in Christ Jesus.


Another Biblical FACT:
ONLY the 3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi represent the JEWS of the "house of Judah". The remaining Israelite tribes (10 of them), represent the "house of Israel". All 12 tribes of Israel were scattered by God because of their rebellion against Him. But it was to the "house of Israel" (10 tribes) that Jesus said He was specifically sent to, and they would believe The Gospel. Only a remnant of JEWS believed on Lord Jesus Christ. The largest majority of today's JEWS are still blinded away from The Gospel (Romans 11).

Therefore, those 144,000 are NOT all Jewish Israelites. The majority of them represent lost ten tribes which were scattered among the Gentiles first per 2 Kings 17. And descendants of those ten lost tribe Israelites make up a HUGE portion of Christ's Church today! Thus no man can rightly try to separate those 144,000 Israelites from Christ's Church. ONLY those Sealed with God's Seal in their foreheads represent Christ's Church in Revelation.

It talks about the same group only from different point of view. 144000 because they are perfect and uncountable because they are great.

So the 144000 are all Christians, from every nation, including Christians from carnal Israel.

In the Bible, the same things are sometimes described from a different point of view. For example, the metals in Daniel 2 and the beasts in Daniel 7 both refer to the same kingdoms but from different perspectives.

 

[Davy]

It talks about the same group only from different point of view. 144000 because they are perfect and uncountable because they are great.

So the 144000 are all Christians, from every nation, including Christians from carnal Israel.

In the Bible, the same things are sometimes described from a different point of view. For example, the metals in Daniel 2 and the beasts in Daniel 7 both refer to the same kingdoms but from different perspectives.

That's the PROBLEM type reasoning I was talking about in my post. That thinking about the 144,000 is only speculation, and leaves the actual Revelation 7 Scripture as written.

1. IF... you had done your homework in Old Testament Book study, then you would know that most of those 12 tribes listed there in Rev.7 are 'non-Jew', ten lost tribe Israelites, which God scattered out of the holy lands first, never to return. Some scholars have traced the migrations of the majority of the ten tribes to Asia Minor and Europe, exactly... where The Gospel went to after the majority of Jews in Jerusalem rejected Christ Jesus. The ten tribes probably made up the majority of the Caucasian peoples that founded the Western Christian nations of history.

That means, the majority of those 12 tribes listed in Rev.7 represent ten tribe Israelites in Christ's Church. They do NOT represent Gentile believers. They represent ONLY seed of Israel.

2. the "great multitude" starting at Rev.7:9, THOSE represent Gentiles from every nation as believers on Jesus Christ.

The Old Testament prophets sometimes does this kind of separate descriptions between the children of Israel and the Gentiles. So once again, IF... you do your homework in the Old Testament Books, then you would easily know this.

 

[John839]

That's the PROBLEM type reasoning I was talking about in my post. That thinking about the 144,000 is only speculation, and leaves the actual Revelation 7 Scripture as written.

1. IF... you had done your homework in Old Testament Book study, then you would know that most of those 12 tribes listed there in Rev.7 are 'non-Jew', ten lost tribe Israelites, which God scattered out of the holy lands first, never to return. Some scholars have traced the migrations of the majority of the ten tribes to Asia Minor and Europe, exactly... where The Gospel went to after the majority of Jews in Jerusalem rejected Christ Jesus. The ten tribes probably made up the majority of the Caucasian peoples that founded the Western Christian nations of history.

That means, the majority of those 12 tribes listed in Rev.7 represent ten tribe Israelites in Christ's Church. They do NOT represent Gentile believers. They represent ONLY seed of Israel.

2. the "great multitude" starting at Rev.7:9, THOSE represent Gentiles from every nation as believers on Jesus Christ.

The Old Testament prophets sometimes does this kind of separate descriptions between the children of Israel and the Gentiles. So once again, IF... you do your homework in the Old Testament Books, then you would easily know this.

The claim that the ten tribes are lost is a myth. It is false. All 12 tribes returned to Israel after the Babylonian exile. In Acts 26:7 Paul mentions all 12 tribes. They were not lost, they were there.

The 144,000 are the spiritual Israel. The spiritual Israel includes all Christians from every nation (Gal 3:28-29). As said, the 144000 describe the Christians as perfect and the countless describe the Christians as great. They are the same group.

 

[Keraz]

The claim that the ten tribes are lost is a myth. It is false. All 12 tribes returned to Israel after the Babylonian exile. In Acts 26:7 Paul mentions all 12 tribes. They were not lost, they were there.

Only a few thousand people returned from Babylon, Many stayed there and the bulk of the Northern ten tribes remain scattered around the world today.
That some from other tribes did join with Judah, does not mean they are the sole Israelites.

Remember: Jesus came to save the lost sheep of Israel. Matthew 15:24. He was successful and we Christians are the result. We are Spiritual Israelites and in most cases; actual descendants of Jacob as well.

 

[covenantee]

The claim that the ten tribes are lost is a myth. It is false. All 12 tribes returned to Israel after the Babylonian exile. In Acts 26:7 Paul mentions all 12 tribes. They were not lost, they were there.

The 144,000 are the spiritual Israel. The spiritual Israel includes all Christians from every nation (Gal 3:28-29). As said, the 144000 describe the Christians as perfect and the countless describe the Christians as great. They are the same group.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Gen 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Gen 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Gen 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Gen 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Gen 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Gen 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Gen 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Gen 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Gen 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Gen 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Gen 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Gen 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

 

[Davy]

The claim that the ten tribes are lost is a myth. It is false. All 12 tribes returned to Israel after the Babylonian exile. In Acts 26:7 Paul mentions all 12 tribes. They were not lost, they were there.

The 144,000 are the spiritual Israel. The spiritual Israel includes all Christians from every nation (Gal 3:28-29). As said, the 144000 describe the Christians as perfect and the countless describe the Christians as great. They are the same group.

No, not all 12 tribes returned from the Babylonian captivity simply because the ten northern tribes of Israel DID NOT GO TO BABYLON IN CAPTIVITY.

It was the 3-tribe "house of Judah" (Jews) that went into the 70 years Babylon captivity, by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.

The ten northern tribe kingdom went into captivity by the kings of Assyria about 120 YEARS PRIOR to Judah's captivity to Babylon.

You would have known the above IF... you had done your homework in the Old Testament Books. Instead, your Biblical illiteracy reveals you haven't studied them enough!

 

[John839]

No, not all 12 tribes returned from the Babylonian captivity simply because the ten northern tribes of Israel DID NOT GO TO BABYLON IN CAPTIVITY.

It was the 3-tribe "house of Judah" (Jews) that went into the 70 years Babylon captivity, by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.

The ten northern tribe kingdom went into captivity by the kings of Assyria about 120 YEARS PRIOR to Judah's captivity to Babylon.

You would have known the above IF... you had done your homework in the Old Testament Books. Instead, your Biblical illiteracy reveals you haven't studied them enough!

I just said that all 12 tribes returned after the babylonian exile. I did not say more nor less.

I know that the ten tribes went to exile before the babylonian exile, but they also returned after the babylonian exile.

 

[Davy]

I just said that all 12 tribes returned after the babylonian exile. I did not say more nor less.

And again I say no, not all 12 tribes returned to the holy lands after the Babylon 70 years captivity. You cannot document anywhere in God's Word that the ten tribes returned. Instead, Ezra 1 and Ezra 2 document exactly who all returned to Jerusalem/Judea after the Babylon captivity, and NONE of the ten tribes are mentioned.

I know that the ten tribes went to exile before the babylonian exile, but they also returned after the babylonian exile.

That is NOT written in God's Word. It is only 'assumed' by those who have not done their Old Testament history homework, or by those who have a Agenda outside of God's written Word.

Now when king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim was made king over the ten northern tribes by God Himself per 1 Kings 11, Jeroboam as king over the ten tribes then had 2 calf idols made and set them up in false worship for the northern tribes, to try and keep them from going down to Jerusalem to worship, because in Jerusalem is where all Israelites were required to worship at that time.

Some 'remnants' only of the ten northern tribes refused Jeroboam's calf idols, and instead went south and joined with the Jews of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. But the majority of the ten tribes did not, and remained in the north under king Jeroboam and the reign of the kings of the northern "kingdom of Israel".

Likewise with the Levites among the ten northern tribes, Jeroboam instead made common priests of the people, so the Levites in the north could not perform their priest duty, so they too left the northern ten tribes, and instead went south also and joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, like the small ten tribe remnant did. Then ALL... of these, along with the strangers that lived in the lands of Judea, became known as the 'JEWS', that title taken from the sole tribe of Judah.

The following reveals Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, as king of Israel over the ten northern tribes, setting up two calf idols in the north to prevent the ten tribes from leaving to go south and join with Judah.

1 Kings 12:25-31
25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.
28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.
KJV


And then the following Scripture reveals the Levites AND a small remnant of the ten northern tribes refusing the idols, and leaving the north and joining with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin at Jerusalem/Judea.

2 Chron 11:14-17
14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
KJV

Then Ezra 1 & Ezra 2 reveals just who went into the 70 years Babylon captivity, and who returned. NONE of the ten tribes are mentioned in Ezra 2, and the reason is simple. It is because NONE of the ten northern tribes that were removed from the northern holy lands 120 years prior to Judah's captivity went with Judah captive to Babylon.

Ezra 1:3-5
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
KJV

So can you understand that? The majority of the ten northern tribes WERE NOT EVEN IN THE HOLY LANDS ANYMORE when the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" went captive to Babylon for 70 years.

 

[John839]

And again I say no, not all 12 tribes returned to the holy lands after the Babylon 70 years captivity. You cannot document anywhere in God's Word that the ten tribes returned. Instead, Ezra 1 and Ezra 2 document exactly who all returned to Jerusalem/Judea after the Babylon captivity, and NONE of the ten tribes are mentioned.


That is NOT written in God's Word. It is only 'assumed' by those who have not done their Old Testament history homework, or by those who have a Agenda outside of God's written Word.

Now when king Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim was made king over the ten northern tribes by God Himself per 1 Kings 11, Jeroboam as king over the ten tribes then had 2 calf idols made and set them up in false worship for the northern tribes, to try and keep them from going down to Jerusalem to worship, because in Jerusalem is where all Israelites were required to worship at that time.

Some 'remnants' only of the ten northern tribes refused Jeroboam's calf idols, and instead went south and joined with the Jews of the "house of Judah" at Jerusalem/Judea. But the majority of the ten tribes did not, and remained in the north under king Jeroboam and the reign of the kings of the northern "kingdom of Israel".

Likewise with the Levites among the ten northern tribes, Jeroboam instead made common priests of the people, so the Levites in the north could not perform their priest duty, so they too left the northern ten tribes, and instead went south also and joined with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, like the small ten tribe remnant did. Then ALL... of these, along with the strangers that lived in the lands of Judea, became known as the 'JEWS', that title taken from the sole tribe of Judah.

The following reveals Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, as king of Israel over the ten northern tribes, setting up two calf idols in the north to prevent the ten tribes from leaving to go south and join with Judah.

1 Kings 12:25-31
25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.
28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.
KJV


And then the following Scripture reveals the Levites AND a small remnant of the ten northern tribes refusing the idols, and leaving the north and joining with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin at Jerusalem/Judea.

2 Chron 11:14-17
14 For the Levites left their suburbs and their possession, and came to Judah and Jerusalem: for Jeroboam and his sons had cast them off from executing the priest's office unto the LORD:
15 And he ordained him priests for the high places, and for the devils, and for the calves which he had made.
16 And after them out of all the tribes of Israel such as set their hearts to seek the LORD God of Israel came to Jerusalem, to sacrifice unto the LORD God of their fathers.
17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong, three years: for three years they walked in the way of David and Solomon.
KJV

Then Ezra 1 & Ezra 2 reveals just who went into the 70 years Babylon captivity, and who returned. NONE of the ten tribes are mentioned in Ezra 2, and the reason is simple. It is because NONE of the ten northern tribes that were removed from the northern holy lands 120 years prior to Judah's captivity went with Judah captive to Babylon.

Ezra 1:3-5
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
KJV

So can you understand that? The majority of the ten northern tribes WERE NOT EVEN IN THE HOLY LANDS ANYMORE when the Jews of the southern "kingdom of Judah" went captive to Babylon for 70 years.

Ezra 1 and 2 only mention the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi because it is explicitly about the territory of Judah, see Ezra 1:3 and 2:1. Why should the other 10 tribes be mentioned if they live somewhere else?

As I said, Paul mentioned all 12 tribes in Acts 26:7. They have returned.

Jeremiah 16:15 prophesied the return of all Israel, not just three tribes. This prophecy was already fulfilled after the time of the Babylonian exile.

By the way, Ezra 2:70 confirms that all Israel has returned.

Albert Barnes comments on this passage:

All Israel - That the Israelites of the ten tribes returned to Palestine with Zerubbabel is apparent:
(1) from 1 Chronicles 9:3;

(2) from the enumeration of twelve chiefs (Nehemiah 7:7; 1 Esd. 5:8); and

(3) from various expressions in Ezra Ezr 2:2, Ezra 2:59; Ezra 3:1.

 

[Keraz]

Ezra 2:70 confirms that all Israel has returned.

Ezra refers to all those Israelites who did return, not to all who existed at that time. They consisted mainly of the House of Judah, but a few from all the tribes did go back then, as they still do today. They become Jews and they reject Jesus as the Messiah. Their fate is well Prophesied.

When we honestly examine the biblical record, it becomes clear that the so-called “lost” tribes of Israel are not really lost at all. Rather, it is their identity as Israel that has been lost. Thus, as we search for the “lost” tribes, we should not look for a Sabbath-keeping people who call themselves Israel. Indeed, as the exiled northern ten tribes wandered from the Middle East, they were known by other names; such as Cimmerians, Scythians, Celts, Saxons, etc. names historians and researchers have not linked to ancient Israel, mostly because it doesn’t fit with their beliefs. They say the Western peoples are Caucasians and either ignore how they got to the Caucasus region, or tout fanciful stories of Neanderthals and fossils.

When Jesus sent the twelve out to preach the Gospel, He said: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter into a city of the Samaritans [Gentiles who displaced the northern tribes]; but go instead to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 10:5-6

Jesus and His disciples knew the whereabouts of the “lost” northern tribes—and that they, in fact, were the “house of Israel.” Why do we hear almost nothing of the original apostles after about 60 AD? After preaching the Gospel to the Jews and being rejected by them, the apostles took the Gospel to the northern tribes where they had become re-established in new lands. During the years immediately preceding the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, we hear nothing of Peter and James? Why? They went, as Christ instructed, to the “lost” tribes of Israel and the Gospel was accepted by them; now the Christianized Western nations. Jesus’ Mission WAS successful!


Prior to the House of Israel going into captivity, the prophet Amos quoted God as saying: Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful [Israelite] kingdom, and I will erase it from the face of the earth [it would disappear as a kingdom]; except that I will not completely destroy the house of Jacob [Israel],’ says the LORD. ‘For lo, I will command, and I will shake the house of Israel among all the nations, as one shakes with a sieve, yet not a grain shall fall to the earth.

That is, the Israelites as a people would not be utterly lost or destroyed. Amos 9:8-9

As a nation, the northern kingdom vanished in captivity and was later “sifted” among numerous countries. But it was not utterly subsumed by them. This truth shows how amazing God’s plan is; His chosen people hidden amongst the nations, who will fulfil the prayer of Solomon: 2 Chronicles 6:36-39

Writing during the Jews’ captivity in Babylon, (135 years after the fall of Samaria) Daniel refers as well to those Israelites who were afar off, scattered throughout many nations, Daniel 9:7, but not lost to God.

After suffering decades of harsh punishment in captivity, significant numbers of Israelites would migrate toward the northwest, re-establishing themselves in various areas. Over time they would re-emerge as Christians, from every tribe, race nation and language, yet ignorant of their own true identity!

Contrary to misinformed scholars and those with another agenda, the ancient House of Israel was not “irretrievably lost”—for God has decreed that they would remain His people. In fact, their modern descendants are the majority in several of today’s nations. Moreover, the House of Israel is still to be reunited with the House of Judah in the latter days in the, as yet unfulfilled prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-22.

 

[Earburner]

That's the PROBLEM type reasoning I was talking about in my post. That thinking about the 144,000 is only speculation, and leaves the actual Revelation 7 Scripture as written.

1. IF... you had done your homework in Old Testament Book study, then you would know that most of those 12 tribes listed there in Rev.7 are 'non-Jew', ten lost tribe Israelites, which God scattered out of the holy lands first, never to return. Some scholars have traced the migrations of the majority of the ten tribes to Asia Minor and Europe, exactly... where The Gospel went to after the majority of Jews in Jerusalem rejected Christ Jesus. The ten tribes probably made up the majority of the Caucasian peoples that founded the Western Christian nations of history.

That means, the majority of those 12 tribes listed in Rev.7 represent ten tribe Israelites in Christ's Church. They do NOT represent Gentile believers. They represent ONLY seed of Israel.

2. the "great multitude" starting at Rev.7:9, THOSE represent Gentiles from every nation as believers on Jesus Christ.

The Old Testament prophets sometimes does this kind of separate descriptions between the children of Israel and the Gentiles. So once again, IF... you do your homework in the Old Testament Books, then you would easily know this.

And so, that brings it all back to the words that the Holy Spirit said through Paul:
Rom.3[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom.10[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

And what does THAT mean??
Ans. Since Pentecost, during this present age God's of Grace through His Son, He does not make any distinction, or have any preference between Jew or Gentile. Therefore all of such, who are of faith in Jesus, since Pentecost, are of the "the Great multitude".

The symbolic number of 144,000 are strictly of OC Israel, who were of faith in the Messiah to come. Though now a long time dead, they are seen in Rev. 6:9-11, as receiving the Gift of God's Holy Spirit, after Jesus' death and resurrection. God did not forget them. Malachi 3:16

 

[Cassandra]

So someone is lying, and it certainly is not me!

Gotta love it when id someone has a different opinion than another, that they are lying when they certainly are not.

For it to be a lie, the person saying it must know its untrue.

But saying "You're lying" stabs one more, right?

 

[Earburner]

Moreover, the House of Israel is still to be reunited with the House of Judah in the latter days in the, as yet unfulfilled prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-22.

WHAT? Still future?? I strongly doubt that!!
Who did you think that the one Stick is?
It is Jesus!!
Even the symbol of His cross, the "joining" of "two sticks", reveals that by His crucifixion and resurrection.
Along with the Gentiles, both the house of Judah and the house of Israel, are on equal level ground through faith in Christ, and can become "new creatures", by being born again of the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, the prophecy of Ezk. 37:16-22 was completely fulfilled, and has been taking place ever since Pentecost. No future unification of Israel as a nation shall take place. Ever since Jesus' shed blood on "the two sticks" of His cross, the concept of His "one stick" now rules. John 3:18. If they don't come to God through faith in Jesus, while they have breath, they are equally lost as any Gentile.

As Rom. 3:12 and 22 reveals, God is holding to no preference or favoritism towards either Judah or Israel over the Gentiles.

 

[Keraz]

WHAT? Still future?? I strongly doubt that!!
Who did you think that the one Stick is?
It is Jesus!!

Why then; do the Jews reject Jesus and prohibit Christianity?

the prophecy of Ezk. 37:16-22 was completely fulfilled

This is so obviously wrong, as shown by how you disingenuously stopped at verse 22. as Ezekiel 37:23-28 plainly awaits fulfilment.

 

[Earburner]

Why then; do the Jews reject Jesus and prohibit Christianity?

This is so obviously wrong, as shown by how you disingenuously stopped at verse 22. as Ezekiel 37:23-28 plainly awaits fulfilment.

Maybe because that is where you stopped?
But, by your lead now, I will continue on to 28.

Ahhh...yes, the New Covenant through Jesus.
 Altogether, it consists of born again Christians, being from the house ofJudah, from the house of Israel, along with those from the Gentiles, because during His Age of Grace, through faith in Jesus, there is no difference between them.
1 Peter 2:1-10
[5] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
[9] But ye are a chosen generation [of new creatures], a royal priesthood, an holy NATION, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
[10] Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Though this may be difficult for you and all to grasp at the moment, please describe exactly what it is that Jesus actually inherited within Himself, upon the glorious resurrection of His mortal body?
Here is a clue: 2 Cor. 4
[6] For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in [through] the face of Jesus Christ.
[7] But we have this treasure [of God Himself] IN [our] EARTHEN vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. See also Rev. 3:20.

Where does God's long-suffering of His desire long to DWELL?
1. Within our earthen bodies?
2. On a planet called earth?

So what DID Jesus inherit in His New Life?
1. The indwelling presence and Righteousness of God Himself.
2. Eternal Life, being both physical and Spirit at will.
3. Immortality of being.
4. Many brethren.

2023 years ago, Jesus Ascended into Heaven, and since then, He has not required one single thing of this earth to sustain Himself.
Will you explain that we shall live differently than Him, after we have been MADE INTO HIS LIKENESS, upon His Glorious return from Heaven?
2 Peter 3
[13] Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a NEW earth, wherein dwelleth [God's] righteousness.
(Key word: "where-IN")

 

[Keraz]

Where does God's long-suffering of His desire long to DWELL?
1. Within our earthen bodies?
2. On a planet called earth?

The simple answer is: both.
He lives within those who accept Jesus and keep the Commandments. Eventually, He will dwell with mankind on earth. Rev 21:4

 

[Earburner]

The simple answer is: both.
He lives within those who accept Jesus and keep the Commandments. Eventually, He will dwell with mankind on earth. Rev 21:4

Well, after reading and studying all of KJV Rev. 21 and 22, in conjunction with 2 Peter 3:3-13, I cannot readily say that it will be a literal planet, such as this present Earth within a solar system. According to Peter 3:10-11, even the heavens of such, will pass away, and planet earth will be dissolved into non-existence. Therefore, it's safe to conclude that the NEW earth and the NEW Heavens, will not be anything like this present system of God's OLD creation.

I propose that Jesus, who is the KoG Himself, is the NEW Heavens, and we each ourselves, now being born again "NEW creatures", shall be resurrected, being altogether the NEW earth, aka Heavenly Jerusalem, wherein the righteousness of God does now dwell.

 

[Earburner]

Why then; do the Jews reject Jesus and prohibit Christianity?

Out of every generation, are there not a remnant of those whom God seeks, coming out from both Judah and Israel to God, through having faith in Jesus?
Yes, there are.
We know them as being "born again Jews".
And of course, God does not see any difference.

 

[Keraz]

We know them as being "born again Jews".
And of course, God does not see any difference.

In Ezekiel 21:1-7, it describes that the forthcoming Day the Lord will destroy Judah and all the ungodly peoples in the Middle East. It is clearly stated that He will do away with the righteous and wicked alike......
However, in Isaiah 29:1-4, it is prophesied that a few Jews will survive by sheltering underground. As Romans 9:27 also says.

But just as with the ten Northern tribes, there are millions of people around the world who are descended from one or another of the 12 tribes. Only God knows, Amos 9:9, although most; we can identify from their Christian faith.
The 144,000 will be selected from those peoples. Revelation 14:1-5 and it will be them who proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom. Revelation 14:6-7 and Isaiah 66:19