Who/What is Jesus if not God?

[GEN2REV]

For the sake of discussion, this thread needs to consider Mark 10:17. Some scholars argue that Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from God to the rich young ruler and even denies that He is 'good:' ''Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:17)." Indeed, this admission explains to the embarrassing problem that Jesus feels the need to receive John's baptism of repentance, a problem not solved by John's protest in Matthew 3:14-15. Some try to explain this problem away by claiming that Jesus is fishing for the rich young ruler to acclaim Him as God. But that explanation fails because the context never focuses on Jesus' identity.

Wow. Such a reverent post.

Are you a Christian?

Jesus led by example His entire life. Every single thing He did was as an example to those who would follow Him.

Being baptized was something He expects us to do.

Praying to the Father is something He expects us to do.

Obeying the Commandments, as He did perfectly, is something He expects us to strive for.

It even says right in your Matthew 3:15 verse that Jesus stated that it is necessary for us to fulfill all righteousness.

Jesus made many statements as a man, and many as God.

Your post did nothing to cast any doubt on the Biblical fact that Jesus is God.

You only succeeded in displaying yourself as faithless and irreverent toward Jesus Christ.

 

[TLHKAJ]

That is the scripture... Are you saying that Jesus is his own father? The Hs teaches us that Jesus is the son of God...Not that the son is his own father God.

Why do you harp on that? No one is saying Jesus is His own father. It seems evident that all here who are rejecting Christ as who He says He is, have also rejected His salvation.

 

[TLHKAJ]

For the sake of discussion, this thread needs to consider Mark 10:17. Some scholars argue that Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from God to the rich young ruler and even denies that He is 'good:' ''Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:17)." Indeed, this admission explains to the embarrassing problem that Jesus feels the need to receive John's baptism of repentance, a problem not solved by John's protest in Matthew 3:14-15. Some try to explain this problem away by claiming that Jesus is fishing for the rich young ruler to acclaim Him as God. But that explanation fails because the context never focuses on Jesus' identity.

Jesus didn't ever deny that He is good. What He was doing is turning the question back to this man who was a Jew. Most Jews did not believe Jesus was God. Jesus' question was to simply ask, "Why are you calling me good (seeing you do not believe I am God). Only God is good." Jesus never commanded that young man not anyone else not to call Him good. He simply asked a question, which He often did to get people to think.

 

[TLHKAJ]

For the sake of discussion, this thread needs to consider Mark 10:17. Some scholars argue that Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from God to the rich young ruler and even denies that He is 'good:' ''Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:17)." Indeed, this admission explains to the embarrassing problem that Jesus feels the need to receive John's baptism of repentance, a problem not solved by John's protest in Matthew 3:14-15. Some try to explain this problem away by claiming that Jesus is fishing for the rich young ruler to acclaim Him as God. But that explanation fails because the context never focuses on Jesus' identity.

Wow, so you believe Jesus had sin? How then could He be the spotless lamb of God? And how do you explain that this contracts these scriptures.....

2 Corinthians 5:21
[21]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:21-22
[21]For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
[22]Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

Hebrews 4:15
[15]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

1 John 3:5
[5]And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Isaiah 53:9
[9]And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

1 Peter 1:18-23
[18]Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[19]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20]Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[21]Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[22]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[23]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

And how do you parse that out ....if He was a mere man? Scripture says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Jesus led by example His entire life. Every single thing He did was as an

Exactly....

1 Peter 2:21
[21]For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

 

[Brakelite]

You call that "easy"? Really?
Your saying that Jesus begot himself.
You really think that makes sense? Honestly

Yes. Honestly. The Son is begotten of the Father. Just like every Father/Son paradigm. And the Son is of the same nature as the Father. My father did not beget a giraffe.
The Son is God begotten. That is the only and best way I can explain it. How the mechanics of that event, that the Creator, Jesus, became human, none of us can understand. But that's what happened, whether people like it or not.
The Father sent His Son. The Son begotten long before creation, made a deal with His Father that if He came as a human and died a sinless life, such would prove to be man's redemption. The resurrection confirmed the success of the enterprise.

 

[Saint of God]

Why do you harp on that? No one is saying Jesus is His own father. It seems evident that all here who are rejecting Christ as who He says He is, have also rejected His salvation.

Oh yes, they are. If Jesus is God and Jesus' Father is God but there is only one God, it follows that Jesus is his own Father God. Jesus never said he is God. Jesus said he is the son of God...So those who say he is God has rejected his salvation.

 

[Saint of God]

Yes. Honestly. The Son is begotten of the Father.

Therefore the son is not the father.

Just like every Father/Son paradigm. And the Son is of the same nature as the Father. My father did not beget a giraffe.

God is a spirit...Jesus is a man/flesh.

The Son is God begotten. That is the only and best way I can explain it.

Then you believe God made himself... The scripture does not teach that.

How the mechanics of that event, that the Creator, Jesus, became human, none of us can understand. But that's what happened, whether people like it or not.

God his father made him flesh. Therefore he is not God.

The Father sent His Son. The Son begotten long before creation, made a deal with His Father that if He came as a human and died a sinless life, such would prove to be man's redemption. The resurrection confirmed the success of the enterprise.

Therefore the Father is the one God and the son is not God.

 

[Saint of God]

Wow, so you believe Jesus had sin? How then could He be the spotless lamb of God? And how do you explain that this contracts these scriptures.....

WoW, you believe Jesus is God? How could Jesus be God and be the lamb of God? Is this not also a contradiction of the scriptures?

 

[APAK]

Yes. Honestly. The Son is begotten of the Father. Just like every Father/Son paradigm. And the Son is of the same nature as the Father. My father did not beget a giraffe.

Not trying to put any added squeeze on you here, as I see you are already being entertained, although the part I have kept of your post here and I keep seeing from you is the core issue that is an impossible hypothesis of yours to reconcile with scripture Br. This is not a typical father-son paradigm at all. Once you can see past this then you can know the Father is much much more that was you describe him to be. There is no divine nature transfer at all from God Almighty to his human son his only begotten for the genetic material of a human woman. Her human nature was transferred to him, not God's nature. He plainly created another human being as he did with Adam and Isaac. They were NOT HIS sons they are the sons of man of the earth in the truest sense and Isaac was the only begotten son of Abraham via the spirit of the Father of heaven. Christ was his son created as a spirit for and of heaven, not the case with Adam and Isaac.


The Father could have created more like Jesus if it was part of his plan for our salvation. Of course, his presence and work with the 2nd Adam was quite different for a much better purpose. Yahshua's Father's presence was with him even in the womb of Mary and never left him, short of his temporary departure on the Cross.

Why do you feel so strongly there had to be a divine nature transfer to Yahshua? Where is this idea actually coming from?

 

[TLHKAJ]

WoW, you believe Jesus is God? How could Jesus be God and be the lamb of God? Is this not also a contradiction of the scriptures?

I absolutely, 100%, believe Jesus is God!

Read the scriptures and believe them ....ALL the scriptures, not throwing away or ignoring the ones that don't fit what you want to believe. It's very obvious to me that you and those who don't believe His witness are not in the faith. You are willingly blind and that puts you in grave danger. You will one day see, and it will be too late.

I'm putting you on ignore. I'm not wasting my time casting pearls....

 

[TLHKAJ]

John 8:56-58
[56]Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57]Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58]Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 20:26-29
[26]And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27]Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28]And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29]Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus did not correct Thomas when he called Him/Jesus "Lord" and "God." In fact, He said, "Because you see me, you believe."
Seen who? He was speaking of Himself ....referring back to Thomas's proclamation ... "My Lord and my God!"

John 5:23-24
[23]That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[24]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In the above verses, Jesus is saying that men should honor Him even as they honor the Father. If Jesus is not God (the Word who was God, that was made flesh - Jn 1:1, 14) then He is asking people to go against God's principle of not giving His glory to another, and the command to have no other god before Him. But here we see, Jesus was claiming equality with the God the Father.

Isaiah 42:8
[8]I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

John 5:23-29,32-47
[23]That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[24]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
[25]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[26]For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27]And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[28]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
[32]There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
[33]Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
[34]But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
[35]He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
[36]But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
[37]And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
[38]And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
[39]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[40]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
[41]I receive not honour from men.
[42]But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[43]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[44]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[45]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[46]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[47]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The above passages clearly state that those who will not receive His testimony, don't have life nor the love of God. Moses wrote of Him, and they still wouldn't believe on Him. The same thing is happening on this forum. The danger here is that those who reject Christ will receive the one who comes in his own name (the antichrist).

God the Father gives the distinction between Jesus and angels....

Hebrews 1:6-14
[6]And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
[7]And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[8]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9]Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
[10]And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
[11]They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
[12]And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[13]But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[14]Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

From the passages above, we see that the Father calls Jesus God, "and" (vs 10) that He (Jesus) is Lord who laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the works of His (Jesus') hands. This is only one of many places where Jesus is called the Creator.

Again, how and why would God.... who says there is no other god besides Him, and that we should have no other god before Him... why would He instruct anyone to worship His Son? Plain and simple ...because Jesus is God, just as the scriptures say. He is the Word that was sent from God, and was God, and was made flesh and dwelt among men ... and His glory was the glory of God (because ....He is God).

Colossians 2:9
[9]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

2 Corinthians 4:3-6
[3]But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[4]In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[5]For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
[6]For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Paul was saying that they preached "Christ Jesus the Lord." This is the Gospel. The word translated "Lord" is this.

Greek: κύριος
Transliteration: kurios
Pronunciation: koo'-ree-os
Definition: From κῦρος kuros (supremacy);
supreme in authority that is (as noun) controller; by implication Mr . (as a respectful title): - God Lord master Sir.

See that?? Supreme in authority, controller, "God Lord master Sir." You just have to be willfully blind to reject Christ's true identity.

 

[GEN2REV]

You just have to be willfully blind to reject Christ's true identity.

They're not even blind to it. That's the worst part.

They know Jesus is God.

They aim to discourage anybody else from knowing it.

The truest form of abominable heresy.

 

[Dropship]

When Jesus asked Peter who he was, he said "You are the Son of God", note he didn't say "Wrong, I am God"..

 

[Saint of God]

I absolutely, 100%, believe Jesus is God!

So where does the scripture that you believe says "Jesus is God"?

Read the scriptures and believe them ....ALL the scriptures, not throwing away or ignoring the ones that don't fit what you want to believe. It's very obvious to me that you and those who don't believe His witness are not in the faith. You are willingly blind and that puts you in grave danger. You will one day see, and it will be too late.

I have one simple request, please show me the scripture that says "Jesus is God"

I'm putting you on ignore. I'm not wasting my time casting pearls....

You cannot stone me so you stop your ears by putting me on ignore... If Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of God, how could Jesus be God?
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

 

[Saint of God]

They're not even blind to it. That's the worst part.

They know Jesus is God.

They aim to discourage anybody else from knowing it.

The truest form of abominable heresy.

If Jesus is God who is he at the right hand of?
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

 

[friend of]

I have one simple request, please show me the scripture that says "Jesus is God"

Thomas said "my Lord and my God"

He said this to Jesus and was not rebuked.

Case in point, right there.

 

[Saint of God]

John 8:56-58
[56]Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57]Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58]Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 20:26-29
[26]And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
[27]Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
[28]And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
[29]Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Jesus did not correct Thomas when he called Him/Jesus "Lord" and "God." In fact, He said, "Because you see me, you believe."
Seen who? He was speaking of Himself ....referring back to Thomas's proclamation ... "My Lord and my God!"

John 5:23-24
[23]That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[24]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In the above verses, Jesus is saying that men should honor Him even as they honor the Father. If Jesus is not God (the Word who was God, that was made flesh - Jn 1:1, 14) then He is asking people to go against God's principle of not giving His glory to another, and the command to have no other god before Him. But here we see, Jesus was claiming equality with the God the Father.

Isaiah 42:8
[8]I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

John 5:23-29,32-47
[23]That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[24]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
[25]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
[26]For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
[27]And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
[28]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
[29]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
[32]There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
[33]Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
[34]But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
[35]He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
[36]But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
[37]And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
[38]And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
[39]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[40]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
[41]I receive not honour from men.
[42]But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[43]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[44]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[45]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[46]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[47]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

The above passages clearly state that those who will not receive His testimony, don't have life nor the love of God. Moses wrote of Him, and they still wouldn't believe on Him. The same thing is happening on this forum. The danger here is that those who reject Christ will receive the one who comes in his own name (the antichrist).



God the Father gives the distinction between Jesus and angels....

Hebrews 1:6-14
[6]And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
[7]And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
[8]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9]Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
[10]And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
[11]They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
[12]And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
[13]But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
[14]Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

From the passages above, we see that the Father calls Jesus God, "and" (vs 10) that He (Jesus) is Lord who laid the foundation of the earth and that the heavens are the works of His (Jesus') hands. This is only one of many places where Jesus is called the Creator.

Again, how and why would God.... who says there is no other god besides Him, and that we should have no other god before Him... why would He instruct anyone to worship His Son? Plain and simple ...because Jesus is God, just as the scriptures say. He is the Word that was sent from God, and was God, and was made flesh and dwelt among men ... and His glory was the glory of God (because ....He is God).

Colossians 2:9
[9]For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

2 Corinthians 4:3-6
[3]But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
[4]In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
[5]For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
[6]For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Paul was saying that they preached "Christ Jesus the Lord." This is the Gospel. The word translated "Lord" is this.

Greek: κύριος
Transliteration: kurios
Pronunciation: koo'-ree-os
Definition: From κῦρος kuros (supremacy);
supreme in authority that is (as noun) controller; by implication Mr . (as a respectful title): - God Lord master Sir.

See that?? Supreme in authority, controller, "God Lord master Sir." You just have to be willfully blind to reject Christ's true identity.

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
See that? Who is the son of man standing at the right hand of?

 

[Saint of God]

Thomas said "my Lord and my God"

He said this to Jesus and was not rebuked.

Case in point, right there.

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Who did Stephen see standing at the right hand of God?

 

[Saint of God]

Thomas said "my Lord and my God"

He said this to Jesus and was not rebuked.

Case in point, right there.

By chance, was that an attempt to show me where the scripture says ' Jesus is God?. If you cannot understand a simple request how can you understand the scriptures?