Who/What is Jesus if not God?

[Saint of God]

I'm not trinitarian.

Who cares what you are? The fact is you teach anti scripture doctrine.

I believe God is ONE - just as Scripture says He is.

One what? Is God a title or a race of beings?

And I believe Jesus is God - just as Scripture says He is.

The scripture says Jesus is the son of God...How can Jesus be both the son of God his father, and also God his father at the same time?

 

[Saint of God]

Subtle rewording there.

They did not believe He was God, was what the problem was, when you read the text.

Much love!

He never said he was God...
John 10:

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
"Because I said I am the son of God"...Those are Jesus' words...
please Mr marks Show me the passage where Jesus said he is God

 

[GEN2REV]

Who cares what you are?

Are you 5?

One what? Is God a title or a race of beings?

Behold, your King.

The Holy ONE of Israel.
Isaiah 43:15
2 Kings 19:15
2 Kings 19:19
2 Kings 19:22

The scripture says Jesus is the son of God...How can Jesus be both the son of God his father, and also God his father at the same time?

Give it a rest.

That point of argument has been beaten to smithereens. He is because He is. Simple as that.

The Father-Son relationship is obviously not that of a human father-son relationship. It is a spiritual dynamic because God is a spirit - as is continually pointed out.

There are not the same limitations in the spirit that there are in the physical/material world. God is Source. The Source of everything in Creation is the spiritual Father of it. God is the Source of Jesus because Mary was a virgin and had no human man/father impregnate her, but a spirit placed a spiritual seed into her egg, into her womb and that is how Jesus was begat. Ok?

God put HIMSELF into a human body of flesh and became Jesus the Christ.

It's really not that hard to understand.

Jesus is God and He said so many times, many ways and others said so and the Bible showed that to be the case many ways. This new trendy denial of Jesus' deity has not a leg to stand upon and is just running on stubborn fumes. There is no legitimate Scripture to support it and no case for any diligent student of the Bible to consider seriously.

God bless and have a great day!

 

[Saint of God]

How do you account for the passage?

Acts 20:28 KJV
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Aside from just a denial of what it says, that is.

Much love!

Do spirits have blood? How do you account for God having blood when Jesus said this?
Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Evidently Jesus' father in heaven, who incidentally is God, is not flesh and blood

 

[Saint of God]

Are you 5?
Are you brain dead? Behold, your King.

The Holy ONE of Israel.
Isaiah 43:15
2 Kings 19:15
2 Kings 19:19
2 Kings 19:22Give it a rest.

That point of argument has been beaten to smithereens. He is because He is. Simple as that.

The Father-Son relationship is obviously not that of a human father-son relationship. It is a spiritual dynamic because God is a spirit - as is continually pointed out.

How does that help your argument when they are two entities...? God is spirit and Jesus is a man...He died and was resurrected...now he is at the right hand of his Father and his God, to whom he ascended.
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

There are not the same limitations in the spirit that there are in the physical/material world. God is Source. The Source of everything in Creation is the spiritual Father of it. God is the Source of Jesus because Mary was a virgin and had no human man/father impregnate her, but a spirit placed a spiritual seed into her egg, into her womb and that is how Jesus was begat. Ok?

Therefore Jesus is not God but the son of the spirit that put him in Mary's womb...You started by asking me if I am 5, but you are acting as if you have no brain... Whosoever is responsible for putting the seed in Mary is the father of the child, you are claiming the one who put the spirit is the child... Scripture does not teach that.

God put HIMSELF into a human body of flesh and became Jesus the Christ.

That is a lie...God sent his Son to be the saviour of the world

It's really not that hard to understand.

For those who know the truth it is

Jesus is God and He said so many times, many ways and others said so and the Bible showed that to be the case many ways. This new trendy denial of Jesus' deity has not a leg to stand upon and is just running on stubborn fumes. There is no legitimate Scripture to support it and no case for any diligent student of the Bible to consider seriously.

God bless and have a great day!

Just show me the many times where Jesus said he was God. Chapter and verses, please...

 

[Saint of God]

Gods name is Yahweh. Don’t forget that.

And God's son's name is Yeshua

 

[Wynona]

Based on Scripture, Im inclined to agree with @Saint of God that Jesus is the Son of God. Even though I was raised with the concept of Jesus being God in the sense that Jesus and God are interchangeable, I believe in the Scriptures, Jesus always pointed us to worship the Father with Himself as mediator.

Jesus is the one who will return and rule the nations with a rod of iron. But He isn't the Father. God is a Spirit.

In John 14:28, Jesus says the "Father is greater than I."

Jesus is God's only begotten Son.

I was raised trinitarian and exposed to oneness theology...but I really just want to go by the Scriptures, regardless of theological traditions.

I can see trinity in the following verse:

1 John 5:7

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


And there's no question that Jesus is Lord.


1 Corinthians 8:6

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.



But I see no issue in seeing Jesus primarily as the Son of God.

 

[MatthewG]

Me either. Thank you for taking time to share Wynona.

 

[Brakelite]

But I see no issue in seeing Jesus primarily as the Son of God.

No-one is arguing otherwise Wynona. The gospel of John, and his letters, were written to prove that very thing. And He did, and no-one is denying it.
Matters get blurry when we legitimately all two principle questions,
A. when did Jesus become (begotten) the Son of God?
B. What kind of Being did that begetting result in?

The only way to deny a literal sonship... Whereby the Son is of the same "DNA" (so to speak)/ NATURE/kind or type of being as the Father, is to claim He began His existence in Bethlehem. Therein is the key turning point. Of Jesus pre-existed Bethlehem, then one has to consider from whence He came, how, and who was involved in the process. The only answer to those questions is simply, we don't know. What we do know is that when Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Jews knew His meaning. He didn't correct them and say, "oh wait guys, I don't mean a real son, I mean like you are sons, like the angels are sons....". No. Jesus didn't say that. He knew exactly what He meant... God was His Father and when the Jews took up stones to kill Him, it was because they also knew exactly what He was meaning... Equality with God. He was claiming to be the Prince of the universe. Deity. And the Jews knew that.
KJV Mark 12:6
6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
But they said,
"Here is the heir, let us kill Him and take His inheritance"
KJV Mark 12:8-12
8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.
9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

The above parable can only be understood I'm the context of the divine Father sending His equally devine Son to the earth to become a human, become rejected, but to overcome to become the Cornerstone... The Head of His own house, His church. K

 

[GEN2REV]

@Saint of God

So your answer to the OP is that you believe Jesus is just a man.

Who happens to be the Son of God.

Noted.

 

[GEN2REV]

Jesus ... isn't the Father. God is a Spirit.

Jesus is a spirit too.
Romans 8:9
John 14:21-23

In John 14:28, Jesus says the "Father is greater than I."

This can acceptably be translated as 'higher' here, in a spiritual sense. Jesus speaks these words while in the flesh prior to His death, crucifixion and glorified body. The Father(who exists outside of time and therefore is omnipresent - existing everywhere within physical time and space at once) was greater/higher than Jesus at that time.

We also see Jesus telling the Jews that He is from above and they are from below. That is literal and spiritual. John 8:23

How could a human man say this to other men?

Also, remember, Jesus couldn't send His Spirit to us until after He died and ascended. Right? Therefore He was not as high spiritually as the Father until the moment of His ascension. John 16:7

If the Holy Spirit is a sovereign entity, not the Father nor the Son - or if He is just a spirit sent from the Father, then why couldn't Jesus send Him until after He had died and ascended? Why would the Spirit have to wait until Jesus had died?

1 Cor. 8:6
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Of whom and by whom may sound different, but not in light of this next passage. (And remember, you said you believe Christ is the Lord.) This passage speaks of God and Jesus interchangeably. And take note of the last verse.

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
... who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things: to whom be the glory for ever. Amen."
Romans 11:33-34
Romans 11:35

Now, who are those verses speaking about? God or Jesus?

And this one?
1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[Saint of God]

I can see trinity in the following verse:

1 John 5:7

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


And there's no question that Jesus is Lord.


1 Corinthians 8:6

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Can you see the trinity as explained by trinitarians in those verses? Three bearing record does not mean the three are one entity. Also, it is in conflict with, I and my father are one... and in conflict with 1Cor 8:6 where there is no mention of the HS as God or Lord.

 

[Saint of God]

Jesus is a spirit too.
Romans 8:9
John 14:21-23This can acceptably be translated as 'higher' here, in a spiritual sense. Jesus speaks these words while in the flesh prior to His death, crucifixion and glorified body. The Father(who exists outside of time and therefore is omnipresent - existing everywhere within physical time and space at once) was greater/higher than Jesus at that time.

I don't see how that argument helps you. Jesus being a spirit does not make him a God to us, we have one God the father... The devil is also a spirit. Jesus describes him as the God of this world. He is not the God of the believers of Jesus.

We also see Jesus telling the Jews that He is from above and they are from below. That is literal and spiritual. John 8:23

How could a human man say this to other men?

Jesus was a human, Jesus spirit came out from God. Did not the HS come to dwell in him at his baptism?
John 16:27
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

Also, remember, Jesus couldn't send His Spirit to us until

after He died and ascended. Right? Therefore He was not as high spiritually as the Father until the moment of His ascension. John 16:7

Therefore, Jesus is not God...Did Jesus not say he was ascending to his God?
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

If the Holy Spirit is a sovereign entity, not the Father nor the Son - or if He is just a spirit sent from the Father, then why couldn't Jesus send Him until after He had died and ascended? Why would the Spirit have to wait until Jesus had died?

Of whom and by whom may sound different, but not in light of this next passage. (And remember, you said you believe Christ is the Lord.) This passage speaks of God and Jesus interchangeably. And take note of the last verse.

You just said Jesus He was not as high spiritually as the Father... You seem to be making a case for two Gods. Are you saying that at some point Jesus was not God then he became God?

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
... who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things: to whom be the glory for ever. Amen."
Romans 11:33-34
Romans 11:35

Now, who are those verses speaking about? God or Jesus?

And this one?
1 Corinthians 8:6

You are getting out what you read into the verses...What do you get from Peter's explanation of the OT passage in Acts 2...
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

 

[Saint of God]

@Saint of God

So your answer to the OP is that you believe Jesus is just a man.

Who happens to be the Son of God.

Noted.

Nope...Jesus is the son of God who happens to be a man.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

 

[Saint of God]

No-one is arguing otherwise Wynona. The gospel of John, and his letters, were written to prove that very thing. And He did, and no-one is denying it.
Matters get blurry when we legitimately all two principle questions,
A. when did Jesus become (begotten) the Son of God?
B. What kind of Being did that begetting result in?

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The only way to deny a literal sonship... Whereby the Son is of the same "DNA" (so to speak)/ NATURE/kind or type of being as the Father, is to claim He began His existence in Bethlehem. Therein is the key turning point. Of Jesus pre-existed Bethlehem, then one has to consider from whence He came, how, and who was involved in the process. The only answer to those questions is simply, we don't know. What we do know is that when Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, the Jews knew His meaning. He didn't correct them and say, "oh wait guys, I don't mean a real son, I mean like you are sons, like the angels are sons....". No. Jesus didn't say that. He knew exactly what He meant... God was His Father and when the Jews took up stones to kill Him, it was because they also knew exactly what He was meaning... Equality with God. He was claiming to be the Prince of the universe. Deity. And the Jews knew that.
KJV Mark 12:6
6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.
But they said,
"Here is the heir, let us kill Him and take His inheritance"
KJV Mark 12:8-12
8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.
9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.
10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
12 And they sought to lay hold on him, but feared the people: for they knew that he had spoken the parable against them: and they left him, and went their way.

The above parable can only be understood I'm the context of the divine Father sending His equally devine Son to the earth to become a human, become rejected, but to overcome to become the Cornerstone... The Head of His own house, His church. K

You can only understand it that way, because you choose to. When you use the word divine you are saying that Jesus was born another God apart from his father. Jesus was a man just like us, with God as his literal father seeing that Mary did not have sexual intercourse with a man...Up until the day he was baptized Jesus was not yet anointed (the Christ). At baptism, God acknowledges Jesus as his beloved son, who had pleased him, and gave him the anointing. Jesus understood this position because he said on his own he could not do anything...So if by equally divine you mean equally God, Jesus proves that you are wrong.

 

[Brakelite]

Psalm 2:7
I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Acts 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 5
4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

You can only understand it that way, because you choose to. When you use the word divine you are saying that Jesus was born another God apart from his father. Jesus was a man just like us, with God as his literal father seeing that Mary did not have sexual intercourse with a man...Up until the day he was baptized Jesus was not yet anointed (the Christ). At baptism, God acknowledges Jesus as his beloved son, who had pleased him, and gave him the anointing. Jesus understood this position because he said on his own he could not do anything...So if by equally divine you mean equally God, Jesus proves that you are wrong.

That's all well and good. Except one has to ignore the numerous scriptures that place the Son, Jesus, as the Creator. Now I'm not one to demand I'm right, and I would not categorically proclaim another wrong just because I disagree with him. We need to be careful in discussing the nature of God. If we are going to do it at all, we need to include all of scripture. Yes, Jesus was in one sense begotten of the Father at Bethlehem. But Jesus was also sent from the Father, 'a body hast thou prepared for me'.
'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son...
KJV John 3:17
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
And I do disagree with you concerning His baptism. Yes, the holy Spirit came upon Him in a special way... But did Jesus not debate and confound the Jewish elders when He was only 12? Did He do that without the holy Spirit?

 

[Wynona]

Can you see the trinity as explained by trinitarians in those verses? Three bearing record does not mean the three are one entity. Also, it is in conflict with, I and my father are one... and in conflict with 1Cor 8:6 where there is no mention of the HS as God or Lord.

I'm no expert on the trinity. But my understanding so far is that the three are distinct while also being one.

There is only a conflict if you have an issue with the Holy Spirit being considered an equal member of a triune Godhead. If you do, can you explain?

I find explaining or having a firm grasp on the specific nature of God difficult at this time.

Im sure as I search the Scriptures on this issue, I can get a better grasp. There are plenty of things Ive had to unlearn.

 

[Wynona]

Jesus is a spirit too.
Romans 8:9
John 14:21-23This can acceptably be translated as 'higher' here, in a spiritual sense. Jesus speaks these words while in the flesh prior to His death, crucifixion and glorified body. The Father(who exists outside of time and therefore is omnipresent - existing everywhere within physical time and space at once) was greater/higher than Jesus at that time.

We also see Jesus telling the Jews that He is from above and they are from below. That is literal and spiritual. John 8:23

How could a human man say this to other men?

Also, remember, Jesus couldn't send His Spirit to us until after He died and ascended. Right? Therefore He was not as high spiritually as the Father until the moment of His ascension. John 16:7

If the Holy Spirit is a sovereign entity, not the Father nor the Son - or if He is just a spirit sent from the Father, then why couldn't Jesus send Him until after He had died and ascended? Why would the Spirit have to wait until Jesus had died?Of whom and by whom may sound different, but not in light of this next passage. (And remember, you said you believe Christ is the Lord.) This passage speaks of God and Jesus interchangeably. And take note of the last verse.

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
... who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things: to whom be the glory for ever. Amen."
Romans 11:33-34
Romans 11:35

Now, who are those verses speaking about? God or Jesus?

And this one?
1 Corinthians 8:6

You don't think Jesus was a human man?

Also, you're saying when Jesus ascended, that's when he attained equal status with God?

 

[Wrangler]

you believe Jesus is just a man.

What belittling. No one who is anointed by God and has God's Spirit is just a man.

 

[GEN2REV]

You don't think Jesus was a human man?

It appears, in Scripture, that Jesus sometimes spoke as God and other times as the human man that He was while in the flesh/corruptible body.

Also, you're saying when Jesus ascended, that's when he attained equal status with God?

No, that's not what I was saying. Read it again please since it's there on the page. No need for me to re-type it all.

Another interesting note:
Scripture makes clear that the angels belong to God. He created them and they are His servants. Psalm 103 is all about God Almighty, Yahweh.

"Bless the Lord, ye His angels, that excel in strength, that do His Commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His Word.
Bless ye the Lord, all ye His hosts (angel armies); ye ministers of His, that do His pleasure."
Psalms 103:20-21

Then we have Jesus saying this,"...if My kingdom were of this world (He said He was from above John 8:23), then would My servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: ..."
John 18:36

He doesn't say the Father's servants. He doesn't say God's servants.

He says MY servants.

The angels belong to God (Jesus).