WHY ARE MANY OF US STILL HERE?

[Lady Crosstalk]

"Unlike later leanings, the Bible writers held foreign traditions in the highest regard (Isaiah 28:11, 1 Corinthians 14:21, Luke 4:26-28; also read our article on Homer)."
www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Mary.html#.XHaxhPZFzIU
("fractals, fractals everywhere")

I think that the Jews, by that time, had been highly influenced by Greek thought. Socrates and Plato, even though Gentiles, would have been seen to have possessed a moral sense (Paul talks about Gentiles, in this regard, in Romans) without even having the Law as a base for that sense.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

The Hebrew root word H:4191 מוּת as found in Genesis 2:17 in two variations of " מ֥וֹת תָּמֽוּת " (reading right to left) and where the transliterated is written as "mō·wṯ tā·mūṯ" (when read left to right). "mō·wṯ" indicates that the person "will die" a particular type of death which in the case of Gen 2:17 is "tā·mūṯ" which I am saying is the second death, i.e. dying in the lake of fire at the time of the judgement. There are variations of these.

Deuteronomy 24:16 tells us

Deuteronomy 24:16: - 16 "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.​

I would paraphrase this verse as: -

Deuteronomy 24:16: - 16 "Fathers will not die the second death for their children, nor will children die the second death
for their fathers; a person will die the second death for his own sin.​

When will the second death occur? The second death occurs after the GWTRJ as described in Revelation 20:11-15.

This is why I state that if we sin, we become a candidate to suffer the second death which will occur in the distant future after the GWTRJ. The candidacy of a person to die the second death depends on whether the person repents of their sins before they, at this present time, physically die and their spirit/soul leaves their earthly body.

Now there are variations of the Hebrew words which are associated with the meaning of dying the second death. Some of these variations of the Hebrew words H:4161 are qualified to indicate that the person will die the second death by, in the Hebrew, "'die' 'the second death'" where for the first 'die' it has been substituted with the English word "surely" by the English translators, but the" second death" label for the second occurrence of H:4191 in Genesis 2:17 has been omitted by the translators in keeping with the Jewish understanding/tradition.

The Jews knew that the penalty of sin was that they would die, even during the time of Jeremiah because they told Jeremiah that he was not speaking a message from God and that his prophetic words was "sin." and that he would surely die.

Jeremiah 26:8: - 8 Now it happened, when Jeremiah had made an end of speaking all that the Lord had commanded him to speak to all the people, that the priests and the prophets and all the people seized him, saying, "You will surely die!​

Did Israel understand what the consequences of the second death? Daniel explained it this way: -

Daniel 12:2: - 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

The ESV suggests the following scripture references for the bolded third line above: -

Matthew 25:45-46: - 45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 5:28-29: - 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:14-15: - 14 But this I admit to you, that according to the Way, which they call a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the law or written in the prophets, 15 having a hope in God which these themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

Revelation 20:12-15: - 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 15 and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

To experience the second death all must wait. The righteous and the just will be candidates for life at the time of the GWTJ while the unrighteous will be candidates to be thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death, at this time. Our fate is seal when we physically die and our future destiny noted. We become a candidate for either life or the second death.

Shalom

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Sure seems logical, huh, but I urge you to seek a better understanding there Mr Ross; maybe one you aren't quite so sure of. It is given for a man to live once

Just keeping things accurate here, bbyrd. You are quoting Hebrews 9:27 and you have misquoted. It actually reads: "...It is appointed to [mortal] man, once to die, and then the judgment.

 

[Phoneman777]

It's the Letter of the Law that's gone, the Law is still there but it's not the Letter of the law now under Grace.
The letter of the Law is like this, you were caught speeding 1 MPH over and the Law is death penalty, if you go over the limit set by 1 MPH, that's how the Letter of the Law works, just like that.
Or ok you are a homosexual and bingo you are found out to be that, well your dead, there is no if or but about such as the Letter of the Law is just that, it convicts. Look it's just like a contract and there are no if or but about such, the Law does not care that you lost or had to endure to met that contract at all.

Jesus brought reality into the Law of a human dimension, not just blind ignorance of letter of the Law that rejects humans totally making them like robots.

No Born again Christian would lust after anyone, in fact I don't remember lusting after anyone my whole life, sure I admired but not Lusted after anyone.

yes, difference between admiration and lust

 

[Phoneman777]

one of the lucky ones, hmm. Well, best of luck to you then, ok Pm. Not too many Pms left I guess, huh? My sis runs a little phone co in the Roaring Fork valley, phones for McMansions and the resorts. They spent 20 years in Mitel, but I think they go Panasonic now. You mostly do the same now, hotels and businesses?

When I started 21 years ago, they told me never mess around with the "3 C's": Coin (from payphones), Copper, and Cuties (I substituted "cuties" for what they really said). Today, the payphones are pretty much all gone, I hardly ever splice any copper, and my boss is a clueless female who knows everything about fashion and nothing about fiber optics.

 

[Phoneman777]

Your hatred and name-calling leaves you without.

The Bible actually says it's YOU that hates the brethren:

"Hate not thy brother in thine own heart. Thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy brother and not suffer sin upon him." Leviticus 19:17

John the Baptist called them "brood of vipers".
Paul called them "bewitched".
Peter called them "dogs and sows".
Jesus called them "hypocrites".

They loved the brethren so they rebuked them. I'm in good company, while you are exposed as "without". Get with the program, sir, and stop polluting the Body of Christ with your twisting of Scripture by your satanic liberalism.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

yes, difference between admiration and lust

Pastor E.V. Hill runs down a list of sins telling of how the ill-health of aging, prevents this or that sin: "And you say you don't lust after pretty women now..." and then as a low aside he mutters, "and its really because you couldn't do anything about it anymore, anyhow." He caps his recitation with: "You ain't holy--you sick!" LOL It's guaranteed to get a huge laugh from the older men in the crowd.

Seriously, there is a huge difference between admiration and lust. Admiration for beauty is esthetic appreciation--lust wants to possess the object lusted after.

 

[bbyrd009]

Just keeping things accurate here, bbyrd. You are quoting Hebrews 9:27 and you have misquoted. It actually reads: "...It is appointed to [mortal] man, once to die, and then the judgment.

wow ty, substantial! (I accidentally Quoted from a Dialectic Bible there, my bad)

what iyo is the Second Death, in that context?

 

[bbyrd009]

difference between classical dialectics and Hegelian dialectics.

really I'd more like to know how I am getting a notification for that post now? You did not quote me or tag me there? Any clue? Ty

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

really I'd more like to know how I am getting a notification for that post now? You did not quote me or tag me there? Any clue? Ty

Not sure what happened. I saw what I thought was a prompt from you and responded to that.

 

[bbyrd009]

Not sure what happened. I saw what I thought was a prompt from you and responded to that.

Imo it would be a great way to converse with someone without specifically like "calling them out" so to speak, @FHII any way you could investigate why I am getting a notice for post 440? Ty
9th "alert" down in my yesterday's alerts, 1:12 pm if that helps any

 

[bbyrd009]

Not sure what happened. I saw what I thought was a prompt from you and responded to that.

Do you recall clicking "reply" first or what? And yes the prompt from me is evident there, see, your quote is on top. Btw if you could reduce that to a sentence or two ty, but you might see that they are identical dialectics in diff dresses anyway. Competition v cooperation, an implied winner and loser v a give and take of equals, etc. I could peruse your post and reflect it in those terms as well I guess. Essentially Classical Dialectic is not Eastern or "Naive" Dialectic, but an older version of Hegelian, goes the premise anyway.

 

[ScottA]

The Bible actually says it's YOU that hates the brethren:

"Hate not thy brother in thine own heart. Thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy brother and not suffer sin upon him." Leviticus 19:17

John the Baptist called them "brood of vipers".
Paul called them "bewitched".
Peter called them "dogs and sows".
Jesus called them "hypocrites".

They loved the brethren so they rebuked them. I'm in good company, while you are exposed as "without". Get with the program, sir, and stop polluting the Body of Christ with your twisting of Scripture by your satanic liberalism.

There you go again...projecting your own character flaws on others.

It is I who have rebuked you. Yet you persist in your campaign against the finished work of Christ - against Christ.

 

[amadeus]

You have asked a number of great question on the election of the Saints/righteous/just.

We are all at this present time candidates to die a physical death. Adam was destined to die a physical death after God created him but not all of the people who die a physical death with be a candidate for the second death, only those who are unrighteous/unjust. the righteous/just saints will be granted, at the time of the great judgement, everlasting life, and entry into God's everlasting Kingdom.

You say all are candidates to die a physical death, yet why would that be less than a definite end [not just a candidacy] for every man of flesh without regard to his quality be it unrighteous/unjust or righteous/just? Why is that not simply the body of dust returning to the dust as per these verses?

"All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" Ecc 3:20
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecc 12:7

Genesis 6:3: –– 3 And the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man for a very long period of time that vanishes in the distance, but he is indeed flesh; and now his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." {My understanding of the context of the source text.}​

These 120 days are speaking, are they not, of the time allotted to each man [OT or NT] in the fairness of God to choose as well as possible and use as well as possible that which God has provided given the Door which Jesus is opening. In the NT this may be easier for us to understand because our sense of time for any person seeking God after [man's time] the out pouring of the Holy Ghost as per Acts chapter 2.

For those who spent their allotted time prior [man's sense] to that apparent availability [OT?] I hesitate to try to explain and would question my own conclusions if I did. But I believe God to be fair and the final judgment for each would be according to what they did with what they had:

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Daniel 12:2: – 2 And all of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
{My understanding of the context of the source text.}​

​

Does everyone whose flesh dies, sleep in the dust of planet Earth awaiting an awakening? Those who never chose rightly, who in the NT never really chose Jesus, or in the OT chose what God desired of them, to me would simply be completely and finally dead. They had their opportunity and chose mammon rather than God. Was not their judgment finished when the dirt was thrown over their faces? They never attained real Life [as God sees real Life in Jesus]. What does it mean to sleep anyway in this reference? Was Jesus not clarifying this in these verses?

"He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn." Matt 9:24

"And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth" Mark 5:39

Then in the following instance, Jesus serves as the interpreter for his disciples who clearly did not understand his meaning initially:

"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." John 11:11-14

People have talked about Jesus emptying the tombs and the graveyards by saying "Lazarus come forth" if he had failed to specify, Lazarus, but that would only apply I would guess for anyone who was no longer even a candidate for real Life. Would this excluded group perhaps be what Paul has named "reprobate"?

My point or question remains as to why anyone who has never received real Life, should ever have to stand in a final judgment or to expect a second death?

"The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous." Psalm 1:4-5

Revelation 20:11-15: –– The Great White Throne Judgment

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Considering verse 13 of your quoted Rev chapter 20, who would those dead requiring judgment be as opposed to those clearly excluded by Psalm 1:4-5?

Our understanding comes down to how we perceive the source texts of the scriptures should be translated into our common language. What we have to decide is, did the scholars, charged with the various translations, provide an understanding that reflected God and His purposes in the processes of reconciliation of man with God.

Shalom

Your final words here are well stated indicating a need for man to understand God's message... Our friend @bbyrd009 mentioned speaking in tongues and Apostle Paul wrote these words:

"But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." I Cor 14:28

Jesus was clearly the interpreter for his disciples in the question of Lazarus I cited above. Now should not the interpreter for us always be the Holy Spirit if and when we are IN the Spirit rather than quenching the Spirit as we read or listen?

[Consider that the "church" in my cited verse should be equal to where 2 or 3 are gathered together in His name (in the Spirit?). We should remain quiet among brethren in the Spirit if it is not presently time to speak (Ecc 3)]

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

what iyo is the Second Death, in that context?

Revelation 21:8 gives the clearest rendering of who is subject to and what the Second Death is: "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars--their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the Second Death."

I believe that Jesus was referring to the Second Death judgment when He said in Matthew 10:28: "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell." The word that He uses there for "hell" is Gehenna (at other times, the Greek word, hades is also translated as "hell" in all English translations). The English translators must have assumed that both words referred to the same place. I'm not convinced that Gehenna and Hades (hades = "the place of the dead"--the word in Hebrew is sheol) are the same place.

The word Gehenna is a transliteration of the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom or "Valley of Hinnom". It is the place (just south of Jerusalem) where the ancient Jews, under the influence of their idolatrous neighbors, sacrificed their children to the Canaanite god, Molech. In the Book of Isaiah, it is called "Tophet". In Jesus' day it was a dump where the dead bodies of criminals, animals, rotting offal and other refuse was deposited. The odor was apparently so bad in the summer, that the people downwind of it would set fire to it, in the hope of eliminating some of the smell. It would burn constantly, day and night; undoubtedly an awful place. At night, it probably had the appearance of being a "Lake of Fire".

In ancient Talmudic writings, sheol was the place where all the souls of the dead went after death--both the righteous and the unrighteous. It was thought that sheol was divided into two separate places by a deep and wide gulf that was impossible to cross. One side was for the righteous and the other was for those who God would punish after death. The place for the righteous souls was called, "the bosom of Abraham" or "the place of comfort" and it was a place of unimaginable beauty, peace and holiness. It is thought that Jesus took those righteous souls to heaven with Him when He ascended to the Father.

The other part of sheol/hades was for the unrighteous souls and it was called "the place of punishment" for sins committed while alive. There were various levels, with the uppermost areas reserved for those receiving little punishment and deeper levels for those deserving of more punishment. Jesus refers to this differing level of punishment in Luke 12. The "place of punishment" was said to be a place of intolerable heat. Interestingly, the lowest level was said to have a gate beyond which was a path that led to "the lake of fire". When Jesus spoke to the Jewish crowds, the majority of the people, reared under the teachings of the Pharisees, would have understood Him. In the tale of "the other Lazarus" (from Luke 16:19-31) Jesus pictures all of this for His hearers.

Jesus' more subtle teaching throughout the gospels is that He, as the Messiah, the Lamb of God, would make it possible for even those who had lived the selfish and callous lives of the rich to go to heaven, based on repentance and faith in Him. In Mark 10:17-27, Jesus' disciples were startled when Jesus said that it was very difficult for a rich man to enter heaven, as they had been taught that the rich were rich because of their righteous ancestors and that they would get into heaven based on the righteousness of their antecedents. They asked Him, "Then who in the world can be saved?!" Jesus answers that "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God." The Lake of Fire is reserved for those who refuse the mercy of God in Christ. At the Final Judgment, those who are condemned, will be resurrected only to be thrown alive into the Lake of Fire, after their trial. It could be said of them to have been resurrected only to suffer the Second Death. Even death and Hades are said to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14).

What I have often pondered is that, in spite of the teaching of churches, there are only some who are said to suffer, eternal, conscious torment in the Lake of Fire: the Antichrist, the False Prophet, Satan himself, and those who take the Mark of the Beast. The Book of Revelation tells us that they will be defiant right to the end. If we take Jesus at His word, He says that the bodies and souls of the condemned are destroyed in the Lake of Fire. But, the Bible assures believers that they need not fear the Second Death. Praise God, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We serve a wonderful Savior.

 

[bbyrd009]

Revelation 21:8 gives the clearest rendering of who is subject to and what the Second Death is: "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars--their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the Second Death."

I believe that Jesus was referring to the Second Death judgment when He said in Matthew 10:28: "Don't be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell." The word that He uses there for "hell" is Gehenna (at other times, the Greek word, hades is also translated as "hell" in all English translations). The English translators must have assumed that both words referred to the same place. I'm not convinced that Gehenna and Hades (hades = "the place of the dead"--the word in Hebrew is sheol) are the same place.

The word Gehenna is a transliteration of the Aramaic form of the Hebrew ge-hinnom or "Valley of Hinnom". It is the place (just south of Jerusalem) where the ancient Jews, under the influence of their idolatrous neighbors, sacrificed their children to the Canaanite god, Molech. In the Book of Isaiah, it is called "Tophet". In Jesus' day it was a dump where the dead bodies of criminals, animals, rotting offal and other refuse was deposited. The odor was apparently so bad in the summer, that the people downwind of it would set fire to it, in the hope of eliminating some of the smell. It would burn constantly, day and night; undoubtedly an awful place. At night, it probably had the appearance of being a "Lake of Fire".

In ancient Talmudic writings, sheol was the place where all the souls of the dead went after death--both the righteous and the unrighteous. It was thought that sheol was divided into two separate places by a deep and wide gulf that was impossible to cross. One side was for the righteous and the other was for those who God would punish after death. The place for the righteous souls was called, "the bosom of Abraham" or "the place of comfort" and it was a place of unimaginable beauty, peace and holiness.

The other part of sheol/hades was for the unrighteous souls and it was called "the place of punishment" for sins committed while alive. There were various levels, with the uppermost areas reserved for those receiving little punishment and deeper levels for those deserving of more punishment. Jesus refers to this differing level of punishment in Luke 12:47. The "place of punishment" was said to be a place of intolerable heat. Interestingly, the lowest level was said to have a gate beyond which was a path that led to "the lake of fire". When Jesus spoke to the Jewish crowds, the majority of the people, reared under the teachings of the Pharisees, would have understood Him. In the tale of "the other Lazarus" (from Luke 16:19-31) Jesus pictures all of this for His hearers.

Jesus' more subtle teaching throughout the gospels is that He, as the Messiah, the Lamb of God, would make it possible for even those who had lived the selfish and callous lives of the rich to go to heaven, based on repentance and faith in Him. In Mark 10:17-27, Jesus' disciples were startled when Jesus said that it was very difficult for a rich man to enter heaven, as they had been taught that the rich were rich because of their righteous ancestors and that they would get into heaven based on the righteousness of their antecedents. They asked Him, "Then who in the world can be saved?!" Jesus answers that "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God." The Lake of Fire is reserved for those refuse the mercy of God in Christ. At the Final Judgment, those who are condemned, will be resurrected only to be thrown alive into the Lake of Fire, after their trial. It could be said of them to have been resurrected only to suffer the Second Death. Even death and Hades are said to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14).

What I have often pondered is that, in spite of the teaching of churches, there are only some who are said to suffer, eternal, conscious torment in the Lake of Fire: the Antichrist, the False Prophet, Satan himself, and those who take the Mark of the Beast. The Book of Revelation tells us that they will be defiant right to the end. If we take Jesus at His word, He says that the bodies and souls of the condemned are destroyed in the Lake of Fire. But, the Bible assures believers that they need not fear the Second Death. Praise God, "There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." We serve a wonderful Savior.

Ok, bac could you reduce that to less a sermon and more of an answer/reply too, if you could, ty.

I only mean pls reflect for a moment on why and how I was able to even invoke the phrase, so hopefully you get my point here? We are not in your Sunday school?

So if I may, what iyo is the Second Death in that context in a sentence or two? And ty

 

[bbyrd009]

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecc 12:7

But someone will ask "where does my soul go?"

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

really I'd more like to know how I am getting a notification for that post now? You did not quote me or tag me there? Any clue? Ty

No.

 

[amadeus]

But someone will ask "where does my soul go?"

I am not sure I have an answer that fits, but... let us look...

I guess we would have to know what a soul is... or should it be a living soul? Adam and Eve seemingly were living souls until they ate of the wrong tree:

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" Gen 2:7

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

When they had eaten of that wrong tree, were they still living souls or were they then dead souls or simply with no soul involvement? It would appear to me that they, whatever "they" is were dead.

Later Solomon writes of the soul of a man enjoying things:

"There is nothing better for a man, than that he should eat and drink, and that he should make his soul enjoy good in his labour. This also I saw, that it was from the hand of God." Ecc 2:24

Was it however perhaps that dead soul acting as if he were alive and enjoying the of good in his natural labor, which seemingly has no definite reward beyond this world of flesh?

"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" Ecc 3:21

What spirit are we of? How does that pertain at all to the soul, dead or otherwise?

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezek 18:4

Yes, the sinning soul dies, but what if the soul of a man is already dead because he never yet received the Life God provided through Jesus? Who of us was sinning before we met Jesus and who was simply already dead "living" as a zombie without renewal or rebirth or God?

"And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of." Luke 9:54-55

What was our spirit prior to receiving the Holy Spirit... if we have...? What is our spirit, when and if we have received the Holy Spirit?

Paul writes as to how it has been:
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." I Cor 15:45

Were there any living spirits at all once Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden ate of that forbidden tree? But... then came the "quickening spirit" [the Holy Spirit that brings to Life?]. Is this what Jesus was? Is this what Jesus brought?

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Do we have an answer or do we have more questions that perhaps we don't really even understand? Hmmm?

"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul died in the sea." Rev 16:3

What is see here is the "living souls", that is those quickened by the Holy Spirit made Alive as Jesus was Alive... but then a number of them chose to jump back into the sea which is a place of overly salted waters which when drunk will kill a man. This is the rebuttal I guess for OSAS if you can see it.

I still don't know if it answers your question, however... The spirits may return to God, but the souls not already dead do die if they have not been quickened. The quickened ones, the one that do not choose to jump back into that sea of death, should then find a place with God.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Ok, bac could you reduce that to less a sermon and more of an answer/reply too, if you could, ty.

I only mean pls reflect for a moment on why and how I was able to even invoke the phrase, so hopefully you get my point here? We are not in your Sunday school?

So if I may, what iyo is the Second Death in that context in a sentence or two? And ty

What I have written stands. I do not respond to the rude demands of others.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Do you recall clicking "reply" first or what? And yes the prompt from me is evident there, see, your quote is on top. Btw if you could reduce that to a sentence or two ty, but you might see that they are identical dialectics in diff dresses anyway. Competition v cooperation, an implied winner and loser v a give and take of equals, etc. I could peruse your post and reflect it in those terms as well I guess. Essentially Classical Dialectic is not Eastern or "Naive" Dialectic, but an older version of Hegelian, goes the premise anyway.

I do not agree that they are the same at all--Socrates believed that truth was possible to discern--Hegel did not. I know not much of Eastern dialectics--only that Taoism and Buddhism have influenced it a great deal.