Why be left behind on rapture day???

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Copperhead

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I have noticed the idea tossed around now and then, where folks equate the "last trump" Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the 7th trump of Revelation.

Let's see.... Paul wrote "last trump" to the Corinthians and The Revelation was written at least 30 or more years later. I am not convinced that Paul was referring to the 7th trump, because even Yeshua hadn't been given the Revelation that He told John to write down yet.

Now Paul had been trained as a Rabbi in one of the most renowned schools, the school of Gamliel. There were definite ideas of "trumps", "shofars", and such in relation to the feast days and prophecy. The first trump was code word for Shavuot (Pentacost). The last trump was code for Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets). And the Great trump was for Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Since a lot of major feasts had been involved in the first coming of Yeshua and the beginning of the Church, it stands to reason that the latter fall festivals may be involved in future events.

It may be possible that Paul was referring to Rosh Hashanah when He said last trump. Not saying definitively that he was, but there is no way it could have been the 7th trump of Revelation, since Yeshua Himself didn't know of it when Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Revelation 1:1 opens right out of the gate stating that God gave Yeshua the Revelation to pass on to His servants. Now, the Revelation was written around the 90's first century. Paul was killed in the Neronian persecution of the 60's, and had no way of knowing what God would show Yeshua in the Revelation.

It is imposing on the text personal presuppositions to assume that the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 has the trumpets of Revelation in view. It is just not possible.
 

buddyt

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I have noticed the idea tossed around now and then, where folks equate the "last trump" Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 15:52 with the 7th trump of Revelation.

Let's see.... Paul wrote "last trump" to the Corinthians and The Revelation was written at least 30 or more years later. I am not convinced that Paul was referring to the 7th trump, because even Yeshua hadn't been given the Revelation that He told John to write down yet.

Now Paul had been trained as a Rabbi in one of the most renowned schools, the school of Gamliel. There were definite ideas of "trumps", "shofars", and such in relation to the feast days and prophecy. The first trump was code word for Shavuot (Pentacost). The last trump was code for Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets). And the Great trump was for Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Since a lot of major feasts had been involved in the first coming of Yeshua and the beginning of the Church, it stands to reason that the latter fall festivals may be involved in future events.

It may be possible that Paul was referring to Rosh Hashanah when He said last trump. Not saying definitively that he was, but there is no way it could have been the 7th trump of Revelation, since Yeshua Himself didn't know of it when Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Revelation 1:1 opens right out of the gate stating that God gave Yeshua the Revelation to pass on to His servants. Now, the Revelation was written around the 90's first century. Paul was killed in the Neronian persecution of the 60's, and had no way of knowing what God would show Yeshua in the Revelation.

It is imposing on the text personal presuppositions to assume that the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52 has the trumpets of Revelation in view. It is just not possible.
since Yeshua Himself didn't know of it when Paul wrote to the Corinthians
Who is Yeshua ? God with us and he didn't know. Come on you can do better than that.
 
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Copperhead

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since Yeshua Himself didn't know of it when Paul wrote to the Corinthians
Who is Yeshua ? God with us and he didn't know. Come on you can do better than that.

Sometimes one realizes that they have to endure the poor public education system that really short changes folks on a quality reading education. Not their fault, just the cards they have been dealt. Reading comprehension has been on the decline in America for some time.

Ok, I guess we have to make up for the education system shortcomings.

Revelation 1:1 (NKJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, right out of the gate the book title is that it is the revelation about Yeshua.
which God gave Him - and it is the revelation that God the Father gave Yeshua. Yeshua even though He is the 2nd person of the Trinity, there are some things that are reserved only to the Father. And the Father reveals what He will to the Son, in the Father's own timing.
to show His servants - and this revealed information is for Yeshua's servants. After getting the information from the Father, Yeshua's job was to show it to His people.
—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, - and Yeshua when He got this information from the Father, had an angel deliver it in signs to John.

And John wrote this information down as it was given to him in the 90's of the first century. Paul wrote during the time of roughly the 60's. So there is no way that Paul could have been referring to the 7th trumpet of The Revelation as being the "last trump" since even when Paul was writing that, the Father hadn't yet revealed any information about trumpets to Yeshua so He could get it to His servants thru John. And Yeshua definitely claimed that there are only things the Father knows that neither the Son nor the angels in heaven are privy to. i.e Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32.

And if one wants to get real technical about it, there are some things that even the Father doesn't know. Oh, boy. That statement should really cause the hair on peoples necks to stand up and they start to blow a gasket! But let's see, I'll give you a couple to chomp on.

1) The Father doesn't know any other way to salvation except thru the Son.

2) The Father doesn't know a better time to accept the Son than right now.

Or how about there are things that the Father cannot do! Oh, boy, again I sense the hackles going up and people beginning to have a fit. After all, God can do anything, right? Wrong.

1) God cannot lie. His character is centered around His promises.

2) God cannot make anyone accept the Son

3) God cannot make anyone love Him.

All levity aside, I stand by my original contention: Yeshua, even today, does not know all that the Father knows. The Father still hasn't revealed when the Son can go and claim His bride, the Church, again, as per Matthew 24:36.
 
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Sword

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Yes!!! I am very much waiting for a literal return of Jesus and believers could see that return(catching up = rapture) yet today!!! Time is very short!! Are you ready to meet Jesus in the clouds OR will you be left behind???
Thats great but until that day comes whare are YOU doing NOW. So far your in hear telling mostly Christians what we all already know. Is this how you live your daily life. Have you told all your nieghbours, works mates. Or is this the only place you make a noise. Why dont you nip over to the very very empty thread called testimony section and tell us about your experiances on the streets where you are crying for the lost? Is it because you are not crying for the lost. You seem like your in a hurry to get YOUR new body., what about the bodys for the lost?

So the question remains what are you doing today for Christ on the streets?
 

Sword

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reek scholar Kenneth Wuest makes the point that Apostasia in the passage that is translated falling away is in error and the the more accurate translation is simply the departure.
Nice. Wuest was great. I have his NT version. Hard to read it though.
 

buddyt

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There are 7 Trumps We are now in the 5th Satan returns at the 6th and Christ at the 7th. For anyone who will please tell me where I can find the so called others. There are none man has introduced this teaching so that the False Teachings such as a Rapture will fit for others to believe.

Don't worry God tells us in Ezekiel 13 he's not happy with those who teach of a Rapture. But doesn't hold it against those who have been deceived.
 

Copperhead

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There are 7 Trumps We are now in the 5th Satan returns at the 6th and Christ at the 7th. For anyone who will please tell me where I can find the so called others. There are none man has introduced this teaching so that the False Teachings such as a Rapture will fit for others to believe.

Don't worry God tells us in Ezekiel 13 he's not happy with those who teach of a Rapture. But doesn't hold it against those who have been deceived.

Well, that is interesting. You propose your idea of what is going on and then use Ezekiel 13 as a proof text against what you think is a false teaching, the rapture, when that Ezekiel text doesn't even mention the rapture specifically. Convenient.

But I think that you need to broaden your horizons. The literal word rapture is indeed in the Bible, at least the Latin Vulgate, as a forceable snatching away of the righteous. The Latin for the Greek Harpazo is Rapturo, as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. And Rapture is where we get the English transliterated word, Rapture. It is also in 2 Corinthians 12:2 and 12:4.

So is then does the Ezekiel text then imply that Paul was a false prophet?
 

buddyt

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Dear brother 1 Thessalonians Here you are speaking of the second Advent. It shall happen as it is written. Those who use 1 Thessalonian verses 13 -18 have no understanding. Paul is telling us where the dead are and completes saying in verse 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. What word ? Where the dead are. Simple to understand.

2 Corinthians speaks nothing of a Rapture. We Christians will all see the third Heaven in the end.

If you have understanding of Fathers word, you know Ezekiel 13 is a chapter where God is telling us what teachings he isn't happy with the false teaching of a so called Rapture is one of them. If you don't believe his word to say this, Pray tell me what he means in verse 20.
 

buddyt

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Dear brother 1 Thessalonians Here you are speaking of the second Advent. It shall happen as it is written. Those who use 1 Thessalonian verses 13 -18 have no understanding. Paul is telling us where the dead are and completes saying in verse 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. What word ? Where the dead are. Simple to understand.

2 Corinthians speaks nothing of a Rapture. We Christians will all see the third Heaven in the end.

If you have understanding of Fathers word, you know Ezekiel 13 is a chapter where God is telling us what teachings he isn't happy with the false teaching of a so called Rapture is one of them. If you don't believe his word to say this, Pray tell me what he means in verse 20.
 

n2thelight

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Let's see.... Paul wrote "last trump" to the Corinthians and The Revelation was written at least 30 or more years later. I am not convinced that Paul was referring to the 7th trump, because even Yeshua hadn't been given the Revelation that He told John to write down yet.

Pre-tribulationists say that it is not possible for Paul's last trumpet to be John's seventh trumpet, because Paul wrote his epistle long before John wrote Revelation, and therefore knew nothing of these trumpets. On the face of it with no additional information, that would seem to make sense if we delved no further. However even without any further information, is that still true? Who exactly did write the Scriptures, men or God? If we acknowledge, as most pre-tribulationists do, that the Word of God is inspired by God and every word has been placed there by God, then did God not know when Paul wrote his epistle what He would tell John to write in Revelation? When one looks at the Old Testament prophets, who wrote at different times and different locations, can one not see word for word in some cases the same exact prophecies? Why should it be any different between Paul and John? Yet this fact is not acknowledged by pre-tribulationists simply because it would be one more proof against their arguments and for their opponents viewpoint.

What Does the Bible Say? Conundrums & Controversy: Did Paul know about the 7th Trumpet in Revelation?
 

Copperhead

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I actually take it to another level. Paul was a premier Pharisee, trained under one of the greatest sages of Judaism, Gamliel. To the Jewish mindset, the last trump has a particular meaning. It has a direct reference to Rosh Hashanah (feast of trumpets). That is one reason that I don't think that Paul was referring to anything about trumpets in Revelation. It is those reading later than have assumed that was what Paul was referring to. But many other comments in his letters to the Corinthians seems to have moedim (festivals) in mind, which Leviticus 23 tells us are Miqra, or rehearsals. Rehersals for what? The Messiah of course. And He fulfilled Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Shavuot (Pentacost) in the first go around. It stands to reason that the fall feasts are in view regarding the end times.

One really needs to do a serious study on Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets) and see the typology in the festival. So much of what Yeshua Himself said in the gospels shows up in the meaning of the festival. It is called "the day that no man knows" because it is a two day festival and the only festival to fall on the first of the month, and the first of the month can only be confirmed when at least two temple witnesses declare the beginning of the new moon. Yom Teruah literally means "awakening blast" and in tradition speaks the resurrection of the righteous. And in tradition, it is also considered the day the Messiah claims His bride. The "last trump", which is only referenced in tradition as pertaining to this festival, is an extremely long blow that is done at the "twinkling of the eye", which is when the two days are completed and the last glimmer of the sun is still visible.

1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:36 (KJV) But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Sure sounds a lot like Rosh Hashanah to me.

So much is lost on western mindset perception of the scriptures that were written by Jewish authors under the direction of HS regarding the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Yeshua.

In tradition, the first trump is the day of Shavuot, or Pentacost. The last trump is the festival of Rosh Hashanah. The great trump is the Day of Atonement. This occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation:

Joel 2:15-17 (NKJV) Blow the trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, Call a sacred assembly; 16 Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and nursing babes; Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room. (the Messiah returns with His bride on the Day of Atonement after He had claimed her and taken her to the wedding chamber of Heaven at the Feast of Trumpets)

Isaiah 27:12-13 (NKJV) And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord will thresh, from the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt; and you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel.
13 So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; they will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, and they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

Yom Teruah, as mentioned earlier, is a two day festival. Tishri 1 & 2. The Day of Atonement falls on Trishri 10. There are 7 days between the two festivals that correspond to the 70th week of Daniel, or 7 years.

One can disagree with it if they like, but to be credible, they also have to disprove it. One should always follow the advise of Proverbs 18:13 and the Bereans in Acts 17:11 before jumping to conclusions.
 
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buddyt

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Do you not understand Gods word. Luke 17 Jesus is speaking of the time of the Antichrist ( Satan ) Can you not understand this. The first taken will be taken by Satan and his lies. Read with understanding.



As for 1 Thessalonians back up to verse 13 this verse 13 defines the subject being spoken of. And that is Where are the Dead ? Paul is telling where the dead are. Not that there going to fly away. Again read with understanding. Verse 18 comfort one another with these words. What words ? These words where are the dead. 2 Thessalonians 2; 1-5 Paul tells not to miss understand the coming of our Lord. How man can turn the word of God around. When Ezekiel 13:20 he tells us clearly about this False Teaching of Flying away.
 

Copperhead

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As for 1 Thessalonians back up to verse 13 this verse 13 defines the subject being spoken of. And that is Where are the Dead ? Paul is telling where the dead are. Not that there going to fly away. Again read with understanding. Verse 18 comfort one another with these words. What words ? These words where are the dead. 2 Thessalonians 2; 1-5 Paul tells not to miss understand the coming of our Lord. How man can turn the word of God around. When Ezekiel 13:20 he tells us clearly about this False Teaching of Flying away.

I'll help with the chapter for others since you didn't put it in there. in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, I see a removal of the righteous that compliments what I stated earlier. In verse 17 of this, "caught up" is the Greek word Harpazo which means a forcible snatching away. The very same word used in Revelation 12:5 and other places.

And I agree with you that Paul tells us not to misunderstand the coming of the Lord. And almost every english translation of the scripture prior to KJV, and the Latin Vulgate written in the 4th century, translated 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as "the departure" instead of "falling away". Discessio in the case of the Latin Vulgate. Yes, I agree with you... how man can turn the word of God around.

You see what you want in Ezekiel 13:20, but it doesn't say anything against the removal of the righteous. That is like taking one verse that says... "Judas hanged himself", and applying it to another verse that says "go thou and do likewise". And the Ezekiel passage is indeed speaking against false prophets, but anyone who is claiming a early removal of the righteous hasn't been proven a false prophet yet. The event and when they say it is to happen haven't occurred yet, and the trigger point of the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel hasn't occurred yet to prove them wrong. You may disagree with those that proclaim a early removal of the righteous, but that doesn't elevate you to prophet status to proclaim them as false prophets. Remember the Mosaic prescription that one cannot be condemned except on the testimony of two or more witnesses. Since the events haven't happened, there are no witnesses to testify that those who hold to an early removal are false prophets. They may or may not have the correct interpretation, but that is another category altogether. So it might be wise of you to remove yourself from Judge and Jury status.
 
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bbyrd009

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there are no witnesses to testify that those who hold to an early removal are false prophets.
i disagree, we are told many times to not be worrying about tomorrow, and that we don't know what we will be then, etc. They are false prophets, directing the attention to "tomorrow" rather than understanding the application of the Revelation of Christ in a believer today, the same application that was available to all in whom Christ has been revealed.
 

Copperhead

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i disagree, we are told many times to not be worrying about tomorrow, and that we don't know what we will be then, etc. They are false prophets, directing the attention to "tomorrow" rather than understanding the application of the Revelation of Christ in a believer today, the same application that was available to all in whom Christ has been revealed.

Where are your witnesses that they are false prophets? That is a requirement established in scripture for you to substantiate any allegation of a capital offense, which being a false prophet is. Since the events in question have not occurred as of yet, there are no witnesses.

Deuteronomy 17:6 (NKJV) Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5 (NKJV) “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, “Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

Even Yeshua adhered to this requirement regarding the woman caught in adultery. All of those that accused her had left and their was no one to substantiate the charges. Yeshua Himself may have known, but that is only one witness. Therefore, He showed grace to her and told her to go and sin no more.

You might be advised to follow the example of the Messiah.
 

bbyrd009

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Since the events in question have not occurred as of yet, there are no witnesses.
since the events in question may very well have happened many times already, but a literal interpretation suggests that they may have not, people are allowed to reveal their hearts in their interpretation, naturally leading many or most into violating Scripture at many other points, imo.

Thus the Revelation of Christ will be taken as a Book revealing the literal future, and mathematical prognosticators will flourish who do not understand what 1about times and dates we do not need to write you is saying.

Anyone calling you to "understand what may/will happen tomorrow" is antichrist, and the Revelation was not given for some, but for all, at least i am pretty sure. I def understand the desire to know these things, but i am assured that people who say they know, or for that matter even want to talk about it, are distractions from what amount to fence sitters with too much time on their hands, who would surely dispute that they and Hitler are both going to the same place, as Scripture plainly tells us, many times, several different ways.

Now, that said, you might be advised to read Deuteronomy (the hidden Book) in that light; unless you can provide some witness for "make guesses about when Jesus is coming back to save us again" that even His contemporaries obviously also misunderstood. Which for all i know you might be able to do lol don't get me wrong
 
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Copperhead

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Now, that said, you might be advised to read Deuteronomy (the hidden Book) in that light; unless you can provide some witness for "make guesses about when Jesus is coming back to save us again" that even His contemporaries obviously also misunderstood. Which for all i know you might be able to do lol don't get me wrong

Not sure I can provide any verses that say Yeshua is coming back to save us again. I, for one, am pretty much convinced that I have been justified by the redemptive work of Yeshua already, so I really don't think I need to be saved again, so I have not really tried to find supporting verses for such an idea as being saved again.

Where I think some are getting their wires crossed is the assumption that a particular date setting thing is occurring. It is not. To point to a certain feast as a upcoming fulfillment is solidly in keeping with "no man knows the day or the hour". Rosh Hashanah is the only feast that in fact meets that standard. It is a two day feast, it doesn't begin until the declaration of the new moon has been established at the first of the month. Even if one knew definitively the day it started, since it is a two day festival, there is no way to determine the day or the hour that a removal of the righteous would occur. And the last trump of the festival is not blown until the last sliver of the sun is seen at sunset, and there is no way to know what hour that occurs.

And the elect that study these things from scripture will not be deceived. If God did not want us to know the times and seasons of these things, He would have said so. But scripture is quite clear that we ARE to know the times and the seasons. And no one is date setting. Leviticus 23 states definitively (at least in the Hebrew) that these feasts are Miqra, or rehearsals. And we have seen from Yeshua's first coming that the feast days are rehearsals of the Messiah. The spring feasts have been fulfilled. The fall feasts remain. And of the fall feasts, Rosh Hashanah / Feast of Trumpets is the first on the hit parade.

The 30 days before Rosh Hashanah are called the days of return or days of remembrance. We are in that time period of the year now. And that is good advice. We should always take stock of our position before the Lord and make sure that sin and unrighteousness are cleansed from us. And the season of Rosh Hashanah / Yom Kippur is a reminder that there will be a future accounting to be made. And if one uses the time of the 30 days prior to Rosh Hashanah to make sure that they are in right relationship with the Lord, then if Rosh Hashanah is in fact the period of the removal of the righteous, they will be secure in that fact and secure in their reward at the Bema judgement. If it is not, then still, the individual has done a right thing by renewing and improving their relationship with the Messiah by acknowledging any sin in their life and seeking a cleansing of all unrighteousness.

A win-win no matter how one looks at it!
 
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GISMYS_7

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Rapture==“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”. (I Thessalonians 4:16-17.

1 Corinthians

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.=Rapture!!

Isaiah 26
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Nuke war effects==Zechariah 14

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.