Why did God need to give us free will, or did He need to? Do we really have it?

[FHII]

So how does this belief fit in with the verse below? How can you say he made some to be damned when scripture clearly states that its not his wish that any should perish? According to God, he didn't have to foreordain anyone to damnation, because as far as he saw it the whole world already damned itself by its sin for those who are not saved.

The verse in 2 Peter says he is long suffering to us-ward, and not willing that any of "us" should perish. That's not everyone... He is speaking to them which have obtained like precious faith.

Chapter 2 speaks of some being natural brute beasts made to be taken and destroyed.

I agree with you on the part that the whole world is damned except those who are saved.

 

[Helen]

I agree with you on the part that the whole world is damned except those who are saved.

That to me...is an Oxymoron!!

 

[Miss Hepburn]

If an image is created and a Light projected through it over time, is that image any different along the way or at the end, than it was in the beginning? No, but what was once unseen, has come to light.

Happy Christmas eve.
When you find the time would you expound on this more? If you made it up or who said it?
How you see this rather than me saying 'my take' on it?
I often have to say to the 20 yr olds telling me how to work a new Smartphone, "Pls, talk to me as if I'm in 5th grade and this is all new to me."
They can't...they still talk like they are on 10 cups of coffee.

Nothing has changed, even over time, what has been there has always been there...but,
now, we 'see' it.
The 'Ah-ha moment'.
Couldn't help myself.
Further...
What is real never changes, what is unreal is always in flux or changes.

However, I didn't know why you made this statement, what was it to help with, exactly...?

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I agree with you on the part that the whole world is damned except those who are saved.

Hi FHII and Dcopy,
And I would say no one is ever damned...tho, it may appear that way to us, and so it was written...there is always redemption...tho, it could take a million earth years on some other hellish plane made up
from the soul's own guilt and anger.
Would you shoot off your own toe? Would you commit your own child to an eternal prison?
Can a Hitler not ever see the light?
That's what I mean.

 

[Helen]

Hi FHII and Dcopy,
And I would say no one is ever damned...tho, it may appear that way to us, and so it was written...there is always redemption...tho, it could take a million earth years on some other hellish plane made up
from the soul's own guilt and anger.
Would you shoot off your own toe? Would you commit your own child to an eternal prison?
Can a Hitler not ever see the light?
That's what I mean.

Amen...we are 'twins' on that...

That's why I said and oxymoron ...Quote:- " The whole world is damned" (agree) "except those who are saved." Made me chuckle...
" God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself."
Yay God!!

We will always be the minority..always have been. But that is okay. Maybe one day more will see it too. If not...they will, at the End.

 

[bbyrd009]

That's not everyone... He is speaking to them which have obtained like precious faith.

yet i read "for God so loved the world," hmm

 

[bbyrd009]

I agree with you on the part that the whole world is damned except those who are saved.

i agree with you on the part where if a man digs a ditch for other ppl, he ends up in it himself!

 

[ScottA]

Happy Christmas eve.
When you find the time would you expound on this more? If you made it up or who said it?
How you see this rather than me saying 'my take' on it?
I often have to say to the 20 yr olds telling me how to work a new Smartphone, "Pls, talk to me as if I'm in 5th grade and this is all new to me."
They can't...they still talk like they are on 10 cups of coffee.

Nothing has changed, even over time, what has been there has always been there...but,
now, we 'see' it.
The 'Ah-ha moment'.
Couldn't help myself.
Further...
What is real never changes, what is unreal is always in flux or changes.

However, I didn't know why you made this statement, what was it to help with, exactly...?

I was responding to ByGrace's being confused about freewill.

I wrote it, but I can't claim it, for it is all just a summation of what God has written. If you will notice, I italicized God's words - which make up most of it:

"If an image is created and a Light projected through it over time, is that image any different along the way or at the end, than it was in the beginning? No, but what was once unseen, has come to light."

This is the shortened version. For the details, of course, God has supplied much more. But the idea is something only eluded to - on purpose. Time is the measure of His revelation of all that was established before the foundation of the world. The understanding, comes with understanding that in spite of us being accustom to time, it is not the way of God, which should tell us something about reality. If what "is" or "was" then, was then written...it would all still be within God's timeless environment, like a book He wrote in the twinkling of an eye. It is only in that book that there is a timeline, but it is not a real timeline, but rather a story line. And then, the really cool and amazing part is that He then reads or reveals each line to us who are the characters in the story...in would-be real time, so we get to experience every little thing point by point.

So...here we are in the final chapters...and if you read ahead in what He has foretold, these are the times of the sounding of the seventh angel.

More?

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi Scott, Not many people 'get' this thing called Time that is not Reality at all!
I always notice italics :]....so much better than large, bold, words in red! (like
someone screaming at you with a police megahorn on the street...that doesn't really
have all their oars in the water...)
Thank you for that.
ByGrace liked it so it must have helped a bit.

 

[bbyrd009]

no point praying the kingdom to come on earth then as it is in heaven, i guess, huh

 

[ScottA]

no point praying the kingdom to come on earth then as it is in heaven, i guess, huh

Color your own canvas as you will - it's a self portrait. If you color it with prayer, so it shall be.

 

[bbyrd009]

Color your own canvas as you will - it's a self portrait. If you color it with prayer, so it shall be.

wadr i am still having trouble reconciling that pov with the one where i am watching a movie? Now all the sudden i am the producer? or director, maybe? no longer a character, iow

 

[Miss Hepburn]

wadr i am still having trouble reconciling that pov with the one where i am watching a movie? Now all the sudden i am the producer? or director, maybe? no longer a character, iow

Ok, maybe this will help...honey? You're the seat, the projector, the beam of light,
and the dust you see in that beam...it's pretty much time for humanity to get that.

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok, maybe this will help...honey? You're the seat, the projector, the beam of light,
and the dust you see in that beam...it's pretty much time for humanity to get that.

ok fine, that isn't what i was getting from Scott at all--who, incidentally, left without replying--but this engenders works meet for repentance in you how, exactly?

 

[Miss Hepburn]

ok fine, that isn't what i was getting from Scott at all--who, incidentally, left without replying--but this engenders works meet for repentance in you how, exactly?

That Scott, doesn't he know its Chistmas eve and he should be posting here?
My post above has nothing to do with works or repentance.
;]

 

[FHII]

yet i read "for God so loved the world," hmm

He didn't say he loved everyone in it.

Matthew 13:38 explains a parable in which the world is the field, the seed are the children of the kingdom and the tares are of the wicked one.

Later in that chapter he made several other analogies which show some are accepted and others rejected. One of them shows a man buying a whole field cor a hidden treasure.

So in John 3:17 we learn Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it. In verse 18 however, we learn that not everyone will be.

So let me turn the tide. Lets suppose that John 3:16 does mean God loves every person. Then what do you make of the verses which talk about the tares?

 

[bbyrd009]

He didn't say he loved everyone in it.

so you say, but that may not be true at all; i read that He sent His Son for us, while we were yet sinners, ie "in the world."
any later divisions seem to be coming from you now, wadr; you don't say that He loved everyone in it

Then what do you make of the verses which talk about the tares?

we would first have to get clear on who "two men in a field" is, and who is taken and who is left, for that, but imo the way the definition of "tares" has so drastically changed in the last 50 years goes some way to explaining that w/o my help. But to answer your Q in context, tares can best be perceived as beliefs imo, and not people

 

[bbyrd009]

That Scott, doesn't he know its Chistmas eve and he should be posting here?
My post above has nothing to do with works or repentance.
;]

ha, well silly me, i guess, lol

Merry Christmas!

 

[bbyrd009]

Later in that chapter he made several other analogies which show some are accepted and others rejected.

some what are accepted, and others rejected?
You want to put "people" in There, right?
Because It says "sons," It can only mean ppl, yes?

And yes, this is a lawyer question, a trick question btw

"sons" can be ppl if you like, with the understanding the we are all
two men in a field, and no one has been taken or left yet,
at least that we can observe, sure

ah, but i see how this is not what you are implying either, is it
go ahead and try it the other way, see what happens i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Ok, maybe this will help...honey? You're the seat, the projector, the beam of light,
and the dust you see in that beam...it's pretty much time for humanity to get that.

see all of the choices that implies, that watching a movie or reading a book does not, though; this i can get with no prob, fwiw