Why did God need to give us free will, or did He need to? Do we really have it?

[bbyrd009]

I have no issue re free will..we have it, the end.

i have always believed this myself, but now i'm not so sure.

do ppl in bondage have free will? iow

 

[bbyrd009]

God decided to throw in an unknown to make this experiment interesting; even for Him.

i think you just defined "creation," more or less. we wear clocks on our wrists and say that tomorrow we will go somewhere and do such-and-such, but creation is...creating is different

 

[Helen]

i have always believed this myself, but now i'm not so sure.

do ppl in bondage have free will? iow

Yes! Sure they do. We knew a christian woman back in the 70's in the group we were in.....who wanted to be free of devils which bound her and made her life, her husbands life and kids miserable...she had many devils.
Every time the devils were being cast out...she would jump up and run out (driven out by them...they wanted out of there, they know their number was up!!)
In the end she sat in a chair and wrapped her legs round the chair legs so they could not make her run out. It took many hours and hours, with breaks in between. They'd each use very different distinctive voices. (these sessions were taped and used in a couple of universities)
She was so exhausted but YES....she had free will, her will was to be finally free...she exercised this will and got free.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

Since God created everything it stands to reason God could have created perfect humans. Then again what is the fun in that? God decided to throw in an unknown to make this experiment interesting; even for Him.He gave us the ability to choose. From that point on He has been sitting back to see what we chose to do next.But being the Father He is He gave us some guide lines and warnings and even a method to get back on track should we stray. A term we now call forgiveness.
In conclusion the point of my rambling is there is no point just rounded edges with no end in sight

Rambling is good...I respect rambling....oh, but there is a point, mon frère.
Since God is 'the Only One'....and He is Love....what would One do if they were the Only One;
The Only One alone with the capacity to create?
Love must love...so He would have to create someone to love....us....BUT, we are just from His imagination...actually Him, pretending to love Himself, no?
And wanting love in return...an endless cycle like the in and out of the breath and the ebb and flow of the Oceans...yeah? :]

 

[Helen]

Rambling is good...I respect rambling....oh, but there is a point, mon frère.
Since God is 'the Only One'....and He is Love....what would One do if they were the Only One;
The Only One alone with the capacity to create?
Love must love...so He would have to create someone to love....us....BUT, we are just from His imagination...actually Him, pretending to love Himself, no?
And wanting love in return...an endless cycle like the in and out of the breath and the ebb and flow of the Oceans...yeah? :]

Aah, you have it! :) \0/ \0/ \0/
As I read yours I wondered if you had ever read Gene Edwards book "The Divine Romance" I think it came out in the 70's or 80's...I am too lazy to get out of bed and find it to check. ( it is 20 degs below freezing today...with windchill factors of 28 below!! 11am, but in no hurry to get up )

As you wrote that post it reminded me of his book...God, Love, a Plan, a Lamb, a thing called Time... The Word ...into the Divine Romance beginning...

Being older, maybe it is on pdf now.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

0h I see in Canada...north of NY to Maine? Sorry. If so I know that weather all to well.
Saturday is a day to lounge.
Ha, I know of another book titled The Divine Romance by another person.

@ByGrace... so you get it! :]

 

[Helen]

0h I see in Canada...north of NY to Maine? Sorry. If so I know that weather all to well.
Saturday is a day to lounge.
Ha, I know of another book titled The Divine Romance by another person.

@ByGrace... so you get it! :]

0h I see in Canada...north of NY to Maine? Sorry. If so I know that weather all to well.
Saturday is a day to lounge.
Ha, I know of another book titled The Divine Romance by another person.

@ByGrace... so you get it! :]

Yep, North to Maine...but then all the way WEST ...we are in "God land" Western Canada.

By many of the things you write...I think you'd love Gene Edwards. He wrote lost of books...upset many mainline christians. we met him years ago...I must google him...maybe he has popped off now. We liked him because we were radical christians and would not walk the party line.

He was invited to preach at a convention in the group we were with...they were radical enough ( Sonship Movement) but even they never invited G.E. back to preach. He loved to stir the pot. Of all his books, Divine Romance is my fav. Another I read often is "100 Days In The Secret Place."
The other really good one if you can find it, is "The Inward Journey".

Bored with the exercises of religious ritualism and parched by the teachings of dry dogma, man searches for a way back home to the place of His Presence. Unfortunately, this journey inward is a "road less traveled," and too few have found the way. Gene Edwards, the master storyteller, has blah blah blah ....

Nop, just check...he be gone now..went Home in 2015. Good old guy.

 

[ScottA]

You said: "...we in fact made our freewill choice "before the foundation of the world""

If you are referring to this Scripture:
Ephesians 1:4
"..just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,..."

Then, it looks like we did not make our freewill choice, God did. Eh?

Good question. However, us having freewill or not, takes nothing away from God's ability to choose. But that is not the hair-splitting point of the pinhead we are on. The point is...both...happened before time began - eternally and simultaneously.

Then...we could overlay that truth, with the truth of real time, and this very moment: "today." And then...we would have the whole truth.

 

[Helen]

@ScottA I remember where I was when I first hear the concept that we all made our choice before it all began.
It totally blew my mind and took a long time to sink it.

It was an all day seminar...and each session had an open forum questions and answers. ( much needed :) )

He finally distilled it down to ...we made our choice before the world or time started...and now , like a stage...we act out our choices.
Now that part I still haven't got locked down clearly.

I know God knew what choice A&E would make back before the Garden was created.
So, what is the whole point of us acting out our choices...if we have already chosen!!
Can any negative choices be changed in our life?
Plus, does this not feed into fatalism?

I take my hat off to you...you are a very brave man to attempt to get your points across on a written page like this!

 

[ScottA]

@ScottA I remember where I was when I first hear the concept that we all made our choice before it all began.
It totally blew my mind and took a long time to sink it.

It was an all day seminar...and each session had an open forum questions and answers. ( much needed :) )

He finally distilled it down to ...we made our choice before the world or time started...and now , like a stage...we act out our choices.
Now that part I still haven't got locked down clearly.

I know God knew what choice A&E would make back before the Garden was created.
So, what is the whole point of us acting out our choices...if we have already chosen!!
Can any negative choices be changed in our life?
Plus, does this not feed into fatalism?

I take my hat off to you...you are a very brave man to attempt to get your points across on a written page like this!

The difficulty comes in imagining that for God, all things are timeless (because it doesn't seem that way to us)...and that is the context that all things actually exist. It is a matter of factoring [out] time.

Step two, is to realize that all that we know was written within God's timeless context, and then manifest in this context... Which is like saying God (in His timelessness) conceived all things in His mind, then wrote it down (still timeless), and that the timeless record of it is simply manifest to us within a contrived timeline, just like the events of a story in a book of fiction...fiction, because time does not exist with God, but the story does.

Step three...is to live it.

 

[Dcopymope]

I know God knew what choice A&E would make back before the Garden was created.
So, what is the whole point of us acting out our choices...if we have already chosen!!
Can any negative choices be changed in our life?
Plus, does this not feed into fatalism?

From Gods vantage point, what we see as us "acting out our choices" has already occurred to God. To God, this is the choice every soul has made:

(Romans 3:21-24) "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; {22} Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: {23} For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; {24} Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

(Romans 5:12-14) "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: {13} (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. {14} Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

If this is what one wants to call "fatalism", then so be it. It was Peter's fate that he would deny Jesus Christ three times before the rooster crowed. It was bound to happen unless God intervened just like Adam and Eve's temptation was bound to happen. This is why the scriptures don't say "will sin", or that only some "may sin", but "all have sinned", because its God declaring the end from the beginning. Without the reconciliation of the creation by Jesus Christs resurrection, the fate of every soul would still be that of condemnation, because as far as God is concerned, those who don't believe in him are condemned already. God determined from the get go that without the sacrificial lamb, we would be standing before him next to the common atheist being judged for all of our works in danger of getting tossed in the fire.

 

[FHII]

I read the first few posts but then stopped. I will read them all, but would once again like to give my comments on free will.

Very few Christians will doubt that God does not know the future, even our personal future. So the questions remaining revolve around whether God calls the shots. Does he change our minds? Does he set up road blocks? Does he open doors?

I don't think most Christians will objext to that either. So we must look at deeper questions.

For lack of better words, we must acknowledge that when God released our soul into a body prepaired for us by our parents, was it his will that some would be faithful and some would not?

He knew... But did he proclaim it, will it and cause it to be so?

In other words, did he foreordain some to damnarion and some to salvation?

I believe he did.

There are just too many case studies in the Bible where God put his foot down and wouldn't allow men or women to do their own will. Adam never asked for a woman. Phaoroh was raised up for God's purpose. Job did nothing to derserve his trials nor his triumph. Jonah didn't have much of a chioce. Saul received a roadbock on the road to Damascus. Esaus was hated before birth...or at least Jacob was chosen before birth. Jeremiah was chosen before birth. Mary was actualky never given a choice. Jesus never asked on apostle to follow him.

A sheep is always under a shepherd. It has free will to go to the north or south side of the field. It can eat clover if it wants or grass if it wants. It can talk to bob the sheep or tom the sheep. That is its free will. But if it wanders beyond the boundaries, the shepherd brings it back.

Cats. I have three of them. They have free reign of the house and as a treat I sometimes let them out on my poarch. Freedom! But there are boundaries and I will physically take action to keep them where I want them. God is more subtle but just as effective.

Free will? There are some that are the Lord's free man. Not all. But those that are, they still are the Lord's.

 

[Dcopymope]

He knew... But did he proclaim it, will it and cause it to be so?

In other words, did he foreordain some to damnarion and some to salvation?

I believe he did.

So how does this belief fit in with the verse below? How can you say he made some to be damned when scripture clearly states that its not his wish that any should perish? According to God, he didn't have to foreordain anyone to damnation, because as far as he saw it the whole world already damned itself by its sin for those who are not saved.

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

(John 3:18) "¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

 

[Helen]

I am getting pretty confused now. ( which for me is not hard!! )

From Gods vantage point, what we see as us "acting out our choices" has already occurred to God. To God, this is the choice every soul has made

So if we have already made our choices..what are we here for now?
It seems a bit of a waste of 90 years if I have already made a choice which blow the whole thing ( my life) sideways.

I once thought that I had this nailed...now I fell that maybe I don't really have a clue.

So, whatever happens in my life now...I have already made a decision on?
What if all decisions a person made were bad ones...can they not be change now? :

And what about freewill ? I thought I understood that too..got it all settled and in it's neat box...now I am not sure!!
...If we have already made a choice, then in the life we live in Time, do I have no further freewill to change it?
@ScottA

hmmm.. Much to muse upon tonight if I have another sleepless night.

 

[Dcopymope]

I am getting pretty confused now. ( which for me is not hard!! )

So if we have already made our choices..what are we here for now?
It seems a bit of a waste of 90 years if I have already made a choice which blow the whole thing ( my life) sideways.

I once thought that I had this nailed...now I fell that maybe I don't really have a clue.

So, whatever happens in my life now...I have already made a decision on?

What if all decisions a person made were bad ones...can they not be change now? :

And what about freewill ? I thought I understood that too..got it all settled and in it's neat box...now I am not sure!!
...If we have already made a choice, then in the life we live in Time, do I have no further freewill to change it?
@ScottA

hmmm.. Much to muse upon tonight if I have another sleepless night.

Well others may explain it to you as if you already made the choice, implying that we existed in some pre-incarnate form, before we were in our mothers womb. This is not how I was trying to explain it because nothing about it is scriptural. When God told Jeremiah that he knew him before he was in his mothers womb, it is simply a statement on his omniscience, of his all knowing character. He knew that Peter would deny Jesus three times before he was in his mothers womb, because when the Bible states that he declares the end from the beginning, it means exactly that. So I ignore those trying to make this seem so mystical, like its rocket science and just keep it simple. Whatever we may define as a futuristic event or decision has already occurred from Gods vantage point.

 

[ScottA]

I am getting pretty confused now. ( which for me is not hard!! )



So if we have already made our choices..what are we here for now?
It seems a bit of a waste of 90 years if I have already made a choice which blow the whole thing ( my life) sideways.

I once thought that I had this nailed...now I fell that maybe I don't really have a clue.

So, whatever happens in my life now...I have already made a decision on?
What if all decisions a person made were bad ones...can they not be change now? :

And what about freewill ? I thought I understood that too..got it all settled and in it's neat box...now I am not sure!!
...If we have already made a choice, then in the life we live in Time, do I have no further freewill to change it?
@ScottA

hmmm.. Much to muse upon tonight if I have another sleepless night.

If an image is created and a Light projected through it over time, is that image any different along the way or at the end, than it was in the beginning? No, but what was once unseen, has come to light.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I read the first few posts but then stopped. I will read them all, but would once again like to give my comments on free will.

Very few Christians will doubt that God does not know the future, even our personal future. So the questions remaining revolve around whether God calls the shots. Does he change our minds? Does he set up road blocks? Does he open doors?

I don't think most Christians will objext to that either. So we must look at deeper questions.

For lack of better words, we must acknowledge that when God released our soul into a body prepaired for us by our parents, was it his will that some would be faithful and some would not?

He knew... But did he proclaim it, will it and cause it to be so?

In other words, did he foreordain some to damnarion and some to salvation?

I believe he did.

There are just too many case studies in the Bible where God put his foot down and wouldn't allow men or women to do their own will. Adam never asked for a woman. Phaoroh was raised up for God's purpose. Job did nothing to derserve his trials nor his triumph. Jonah didn't have much of a chioce. Saul received a roadbock on the road to Damascus. Esaus was hated before birth...or at least Jacob was chosen before birth. Jeremiah was chosen before birth. Mary was actualky never given a choice. Jesus never asked on apostle to follow him.

A sheep is always under a shepherd. It has free will to go to the north or south side of the field. It can eat clover if it wants or grass if it wants. It can talk to bob the sheep or tom the sheep. That is its free will. But if it wanders beyond the boundaries, the shepherd brings it back.

Cats. I have three of them. They have free reign of the house and as a treat I sometimes let them out on my poarch. Freedom! But there are boundaries and I will physically take action to keep them where I want them. God is more subtle but just as effective.

Free will? There are some that are the Lord's free man. Not all. But those that are, they still are the Lord's.

This would have been given an A + if it landed on my desk!
Excellent research and deductions.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

There are those that say God is similar to us in the way we replay our videos...we re-watch our DVDs...in this drama or dream we re-live scenes; for how long..?...until we 100% reach purity in thought, word and deed...and learn utter forgiveness... are absorbed in complete forgiveness,
a quantum forgiveness....for ourselves, moving on from the colossal guilt of ever ever ever choosing to become separate from the Kingdom, Home, God...of our true selves and forgetting we are all One...
doing unto others is doing to God Himself...in thought, word and deed...
...and that it is this soul guilt that keeps us from union with God, our ultimate Goal.

How to escape this predicament? Forgiveness...and wasn't Jesus the perfect example for us. Forgiveness is the key...some say.

Related:
"Love bade me welcome,
Yet, my soul drew back..."
-George Herbert, 16thc priest

And, ByGrace, what a wonderful place to be in ; when past concepts are blown away!!
I love that place...when I see a diff paradigm actually exists than I thought,
Do watch Star of Bethlehem...it will open you to something we had no idea about previously...the magnitude of God's plan and brilliance.

**This page 2 of the thread has some really smart posts on it ! ☺

 

[Helen]

If an image is created and a Light projected through it over time, is that image any different along the way or at the end, than it was in the beginning? No, but what was once unseen, has come to light.

You are so far ahead and I am running to catch up...but feeling much like I am on a wheel like a hamster and really 'going nowhere'.
I saw the @Pisteuo and @Miss Hepburn "like" you post,( quoted above) so I did too...in a 'thank you' for responding..while not in fact yet getting it. My hats off to them if they did ;)
Then I slapped myself because I now feel like the crowed that stood with a the little boy watching the procession who declared that the Emperor was naked ...while the crowed all agreed that the Emperor had on a a " fine magic suit of clothes"....
.... while I am sure my spirit "get's it" my mind sure does not!! :)

Maybe it all just needs to 'filter down' and in, and then the lights may come on.
Bless you Scott for your patience.

 

[bbyrd009]

Then I slapped myself because I now feel like the crowed that stood with a the little boy watching the procession who declared that the Emperor was naked ...while the crowed all agreed that the Emperor had on a a " fine magic suit of clothes"....

the fruit don't lie, i guess