Why Did the Devil Tempt Jesus?

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uncle silas

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This entire conversation started by your objection to Adventists upholding the 4th commandment. You have no issue with Adventists upholding the validity of the 6th commandment, or the 7th, validity I am sure you also agree with. I also think you will agree with the means by which such is accomplished. Only by being born again, and the biblical mandate, "the just shall live by faith", and in the process becoming new creatures. So what of the 4th commandment? That's what you cannot adequately answer.
You have alreacdy been given scripture concerning applicable law under the new covenant(Rom14:5&Rom14:14&20)
You have not responded to my point, that if you and your denomination are correct concerning applicable law, the first century church leaders, including Peter, Paul and James must have given gentiles a licence to sin. Yet you accuse me of not addressing your questions.
OK, though you seem unable to address the points I put before you, I will give you the answer to your question, but people who can only see the letter of what is written will never be able to accept it.
God told Moses the Israelites were a stiff necked, heathen people who would soon desert him once they reached the promised land. It is understandable, such people would be instructed to set aside a day to contemplate on God and his goodness to them.
Under the new covenant however, we have the holy Spirit dwelling in us. Our hearts have been softened, they are not hardened as the Israelites were. Born again christians instinctively meditate upon God has his kindness to them through Christ seven days a week, they praise him and thank him for all he has done for them each and every day. The spiriutal intent of the fourth commandment is upheld in believers today every day.
There is no scripture in the NC era requiring a seventh day sabbath to be followed, Paul says it does not, you are quite entitled to consider every day alike, as incidentally, he twice stated all food is clean
Those who follow after the law cannot follow after the Spirit, it is one or the other(Rom7:6) It is the Holy Spirit who leads us into spiritual truth, hence, you and your denomination are at odds with the NT church as to what is and what is not applicable law
 
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uncle silas

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This entire conversation started by your objection to Adventists upholding the 4th commandment.
BTW
I have no objection to sda members setting aside a set Saturday Sabbath, only they have no right to insist everyone else must. Please bear in mind the ninth commandment when writing your posts.
 

Brakelite

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Is it correct for you to ask the question can one claim to legitimately be fully converted if they are not obeying God's laws when you yourself transgress them? Its quite legitimate to ask you if you believe you are fully converted
Good point. Allow me to copy and paste a post I presented many years ago in response to a similar question.

3 Spiritual laws that govern life.​

"For I delight in

Law One: ..........The law of God.

after the inward man".....
(Romans 7:22)

Paul has nothing but love and respect for God's law. He considers it 'holy, just and good'. It is Paul's earnest and deepest desire to honour that law, and to keep all the commandments,

" but I see another law in my members, warring against the law (of God) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to...." (v23cont.)

Law Two:..........."The law of sin...

"...which is in my members.


Paul delights in obedience, but finds that in the carnal nature resides a law which makes it impossible, the law of sin. Paul confesses his wretchedness and guilt. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" he cries.

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin." (vs 25)

But if Paul is bound by the law of sin, despite his best intentions to obey the law of God, how then can he overcome? The answer is just 2 verses later. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For...

Law Three:..........the law of the Spirit of life...

in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Romans 8:1,2.

Three laws. The law of God which is holy, just, and good.
The law of sin which binds the carnal man making it impossible to obey the law of God.
The law of the Spirit of life which through the grace and power of God makes it possible for the reborn child of God to obey the law of God, if he relies on and walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

The law of sin has no power over them who are completely surrendered to Christ. That is why elsewhere Paul can assert that to those who walk in the Spirit they are transformed by the renewing of their minds, and are recreated into the image of the character of Christ. A character that is obedient and a mind (like Christ's) which delights in the law of God and rejoices that by faith in the power and grace of God he may be obedient to all the commandments.

I believe the above is biblical, possible, and attainable by every child of God. I don't claim to having attained. I, like everyone else, am human. I know that hidden in the dark recesses of my heart, there are lurking some nasty old character traits that God in His mercy will reveal to me in due time. Just like He has done for me in the past. The sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit is still working. But like Paul, and David, and Jesus, I can state,
“97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day....
... 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. ”
Psalms 119:97, 104 KJV

The principles taught in the schools of the prophets were the same that molded David's character and shaped his life. The word of God was his instructor. "Through Thy precepts," he said, "I get understanding. . . . I have inclined mine heart to perform Thy statutes." Psalms 119:104-112. It was this that caused the Lord to pronounce David, when in his youth He called him to the throne, "a man after Mine own heart."

I am sure the apostle Paul was no different.
“27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. ”
Romans 3:27-28, 31 KJV


And Jesus came with the same mindset...
“The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. ”
Isaiah 42:21 KJV

Do you know what the real motivation for obedience is? Obligation? No. Desperation? No. Salvation? No. Fear? No. It's love. "Love is the fulfillment of the law." "Thou shalt love... on these two hang all the law and the prophets". "If ye love Me, keep...".
Adam and Eve were filled with God's Spirit. They communed and walked in the garden with Him every day. They talked with angels. Yet God gave them the Sabbath. A gift. A day He blessed and made holy, setting it aside for holy use. Before sin. Before the fall. Jesus told us what day was His. He is the Lord of the Sabbath. Made for man. Not for the Jews. Not for church people. For mankind. A day as you say to contemplate. To spend time with Him. And with each other. Away from secular thoughts and work and worries over finance and the affairs of this world. A time to rest. Recharge. You can't do that every day. And God didn't bless every day. Just Sabbath.

By the way. Paul, the apostles, the early church, and according to even Catholic historians, the Christian Church kept the Sabbath for several hundred years throughout the world after the establishment of the church covenant. How could it be otherwise? The law written on the heart is the same that was on tables of stone. Like I said. God doesn't lessen His standard to suit man's fallen state.
You can't gel with the idea that man can look to His Lord in faith for the power to obey that same Lord's commandments? How else could anyone render obedience? How do you do it?
 

Brakelite

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BTW
I have no objection to sda members setting aside a set Saturday Sabbath, only they have no right to insist everyone else must. Please bear in mind the ninth commandment when writing your posts.
Very soon, it will be Sunday keepers insisting everyone observe Sunday. And we don't insist everyone must do as we do. We simply point out what the law says. And what Jesus, and the apostles practised. And what they encouraged the gentiles to follow.
 

uncle silas

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Good point. Allow me to copy and paste a post I presented many years ago in response to a similar question.

3 Spiritual laws that govern life.​

"For I delight in

Law One: ..........The law of God.

after the inward man".....
(Romans 7:22)

Paul has nothing but love and respect for God's law. He considers it 'holy, just and good'. It is Paul's earnest and deepest desire to honour that law, and to keep all the commandments,

" but I see another law in my members, warring against the law (of God) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to...." (v23cont.)

Law Two:..........."The law of sin...

"...which is in my members.


Paul delights in obedience, but finds that in the carnal nature resides a law which makes it impossible, the law of sin. Paul confesses his wretchedness and guilt. "Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" he cries.

"I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin." (vs 25)

But if Paul is bound by the law of sin, despite his best intentions to obey the law of God, how then can he overcome? The answer is just 2 verses later. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For...

Law Three:..........the law of the Spirit of life...

in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Romans 8:1,2.

Three laws. The law of God which is holy, just, and good.
The law of sin which binds the carnal man making it impossible to obey the law of God.
The law of the Spirit of life which through the grace and power of God makes it possible for the reborn child of God to obey the law of God, if he relies on and walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

The law of sin has no power over them who are completely surrendered to Christ. That is why elsewhere Paul can assert that to those who walk in the Spirit they are transformed by the renewing of their minds, and are recreated into the image of the character of Christ. A character that is obedient and a mind (like Christ's) which delights in the law of God and rejoices that by faith in the power and grace of God he may be obedient to all the commandments.

I believe the above is biblical, possible, and attainable by every child of God. I don't claim to having attained. I, like everyone else, am human. I know that hidden in the dark recesses of my heart, there are lurking some nasty old character traits that God in His mercy will reveal to me in due time. Just like He has done for me in the past. The sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit is still working. But like Paul, and David, and Jesus, I can state,
“97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day....
... 104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. ”
Psalms 119:97, 104 KJV

The principles taught in the schools of the prophets were the same that molded David's character and shaped his life. The word of God was his instructor. "Through Thy precepts," he said, "I get understanding. . . . I have inclined mine heart to perform Thy statutes." Psalms 119:104-112. It was this that caused the Lord to pronounce David, when in his youth He called him to the throne, "a man after Mine own heart."

I am sure the apostle Paul was no different.
“27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. ”
Romans 3:27-28, 31 KJV


And Jesus came with the same mindset...
“The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable. ”
Isaiah 42:21 KJV

Do you know what the real motivation for obedience is? Obligation? No. Desperation? No. Salvation? No. Fear? No. It's love. "Love is the fulfillment of the law." "Thou shalt love... on these two hang all the law and the prophets". "If ye love Me, keep...".
Adam and Eve were filled with God's Spirit. They communed and walked in the garden with Him every day. They talked with angels. Yet God gave them the Sabbath. A gift. A day He blessed and made holy, setting it aside for holy use. Before sin. Before the fall. Jesus told us what day was His. He is the Lord of the Sabbath. Made for man. Not for the Jews. Not for church people. For mankind. A day as you say to contemplate. To spend time with Him. And with each other. Away from secular thoughts and work and worries over finance and the affairs of this world. A time to rest. Recharge. You can't do that every day. And God didn't bless every day. Just Sabbath.

By the way. Paul, the apostles, the early church, and according to even Catholic historians, the Christian Church kept the Sabbath for several hundred years throughout the world after the establishment of the church covenant. How could it be otherwise? The law written on the heart is the same that was on tables of stone. Like I said. God doesn't lessen His standard to suit man's fallen state.
You can't gel with the idea that man can look to His Lord in faith for the power to obey that same Lord's commandments? How else could anyone render obedience? How do you do it?


I have explained to you twice, and neither time did you respond. IF, the law in the heart was EXACTLY the same as the law written on stone, no one could be a Christian UNLESS they had heartfelt consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath. That is based on scripture your denomination endlessly quotes(1John3:4&Rom3:20) If you like, I can repaste it, just ask.

As your denomination accepts people as Christians who have no consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath, either you are wrong as to the law in the heart being exactly the same, or, you and your denomination fail to understand the outworking of the core foundation upon which the NC stands with your views. It has to be one or the other.

As God does not lessen his standards. Can you not see, the law as written can only bring condemnation? Note the wording of the TC:

Thou shalt NOT, no wiggle room for error, perfectly obey them or stand guilty before them. Everyone stands guilty before them. I hope you are not just holding the words of what is written in the fourth commandment to God not lessening his standards!

Can you tell me. When people in your denomination keep repeating:

‘You must obey the TC’ why do they not add to that, they themselves transgress them? It is the truth after all.

Do you think it correct to tell people they must obey the TC to enter Heaven when you and the people in your denomination transgress those commands? At least tell people you do and be honest.

How do you think the people of Jesus day got crushed, oppressed, downtrodden? Because the pharisees preached the law rigidly to them, inferred they nigh on faultlessly obeyed it, and the people got crushed in the process. Im sorry, but that is what is happening so often today

BTW

Paul is writing about Saul in Rom7:14-24

It would not surprise me in the least if many for a long time set aside a set Saturday sabbath, it was all the Jews had been used to for centuries. However, if God was mandating it for the NC era, the bible would have plainly stated that in the writing of the Apostles, it does not.

Once again, your denomination uses human intellect to decide which law is applicable and which is not, hence, it disagrees with the NT church. Based on your churches beliefs, the NT church, including Peter, Paul and James must have given gentile converts a licence to sin, that is absurd.
 
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uncle silas

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Very soon, it will be Sunday keepers insisting everyone observe Sunday. And we don't insist everyone must do as we do. We simply point out what the law says. And what Jesus, and the apostles practised. And what they encouraged the gentiles to follow.
Im sorry, but Ive already told one of your members their views are blind on this. It is not going to Sunday keepers who persecute you. Open your eyes to what is happening the world over, don't be blinkered. Your real threat comes from elsewhere, as it does for all christians!
Show me one scripture where gentiles wefre encouraged to follow a set Saturday Sabbath. Paul stated one man considers one day more sacred than another, another man considers every day alike, each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. And as I keep telling you, he twice plainly stated ALL food is clean. I understand you have to ignore all of this, but I will keep reminding you of it. Your church disagress with the leaders of the first century church as to what is, and what is not applicable law!!
 
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uncle silas

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How else could anyone render obedience? How do you do it?
To cut a long story as short as possible. At the age of Ten I responded to an altar call. The first thing I noticed that was different about me was, I became aware of my sin/shortcomings before God in a very real and profound way. And so, I set out wanting to live a pure and holy life for God. The problem was, I could not be sinless/fully obey God’s laws. And, I started to feel bad about my thoughts. No problem in not committing adultery, stealing, taking the Lords name in vain or murdering, it was what went on, on the inside of me. Sin is sin-right? As you said, God will not lower his standards.

Then I reached puberty and my problems magnified out of all recognition, for along came impure thoughts. I honestly did not want them, I wanted to live a pure and holy life for God, but I couldn’t stop them coming. Now I was in bad trouble, as you said, if we do not obey God’s laws can we really call ourselves a Christian? Impure thoughts transgress the TC. I started to fear them, the more I feared them the worse they got. In the end, I ended up consumed by all manner of concupiscence(Rom7:7&8) In the five years since I got saved my sin had flourished, and I feared I was condemned to hell.

Refusing to be a hypocrite, I left the church, if I stayed, I would have had to tell others to do what I could not do. Fortunately for me, a few years later, someone asked me to read a book. In it, was a chapter on Paul’s message of grace. I was stunned to read, I could have no righteousness of obeying the law. So, I recommitted my life to Christ. But what of the sin, it was still there, I didn’t want it.

There was a particular sin I had been a slave to for six years, and it had been my master. I simply prayed and asked God to deal with it. The next three days were awful. There I was, committing this sin/breaking one of the TC, but for the first time in my life I looked to Christ and trusted I was saved because he was my righteousness before God. I had no righteousness of not committing sin/transgressing the law. A voice in my head told me I was a hypocrite, I was just fooling myself, I could not be a Christian and do what I was doing. And, my rational mind, everything I had ever previously believed agreed with that voice in my head. It was so logical, how could it be wrong? Nevertheless, in simple faith, logic cast to one side, I kept looking to Christ, and trusting I was still saved as he was the only righteousness I could have before God. I was NOT looking to Christ, in faith I would obey a commandment, simply believing he was my righteousness before God.

On the fourth day, this sin I had been a slave to for six years stopped. When I feared hell because of it/breaking one of the TC it only got worse. As Paul wrote:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ. Rom6:14
 

uncle silas

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Acts 13:14-44.
Those verses don't encourage anyone to set aside a specific set Saturday sabbath. Paul entered the synagogue on the Jewish Sabbath they had always set aside for the sabbath. It was the only day he could go there when the synagogue would be full of people so he could preach to them. That was and still is the custom of the Jews. If a set saturday sabbath was required concerning the fourth commandment as writtern, the NT would plainly state that.
I'm not going to discuss with you anymore applicable law for believers. It has been proved to you from scripture, you and your denomination do not agree with the first century church leaders as what is and what is not applicable law. You simply ignore all the references I have given you concerning this. You know now, that if you and your denomination were correct, the NT church must have given gentile converts a licence to sin, which would be absurd.
As you have not responded to anything else I have written, I assume our conversation is now over.
 
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Brakelite

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To cut a long story as short as possible. At the age of Ten I responded to an altar call. The first thing I noticed that was different about me was, I became aware of my sin/shortcomings before God in a very real and profound way. And so, I set out wanting to live a pure and holy life for God. The problem was, I could not be sinless/fully obey God’s laws. And, I started to feel bad about my thoughts. No problem in not committing adultery, stealing, taking the Lords name in vain or murdering, it was what went on, on the inside of me. Sin is sin-right? As you said, God will not lower his standards.

Then I reached puberty and my problems magnified out of all recognition, for along came impure thoughts. I honestly did not want them, I wanted to live a pure and holy life for God, but I couldn’t stop them coming. Now I was in bad trouble, as you said, if we do not obey God’s laws can we really call ourselves a Christian? Impure thoughts transgress the TC. I started to fear them, the more I feared them the worse they got. In the end, I ended up consumed by all manner of concupiscence(Rom7:7&8) In the five years since I got saved my sin had flourished, and I feared I was condemned to hell.

Refusing to be a hypocrite, I left the church, if I stayed, I would have had to tell others to do what I could not do. Fortunately for me, a few years later, someone asked me to read a book. In it, was a chapter on Paul’s message of grace. I was stunned to read, I could have no righteousness of obeying the law. So, I recommitted my life to Christ. But what of the sin, it was still there, I didn’t want it.

There was a particular sin I had been a slave to for six years, and it had been my master. I simply prayed and asked God to deal with it. The next three days were awful. There I was, committing this sin/breaking one of the TC, but for the first time in my life I looked to Christ and trusted I was saved because he was my righteousness before God. I had no righteousness of not committing sin/transgressing the law. A voice in my head told me I was a hypocrite, I was just fooling myself, I could not be a Christian and do what I was doing. And, my rational mind, everything I had ever previously believed agreed with that voice in my head. It was so logical, how could it be wrong? Nevertheless, in simple faith, logic cast to one side, I kept looking to Christ, and trusting I was still saved as he was the only righteousness I could have before God. I was NOT looking to Christ, in faith I would obey a commandment, simply believing he was my righteousness before God.

On the fourth day, this sin I had been a slave to for six years stopped. When I feared hell because of it/breaking one of the TC it only got worse. As Paul wrote:

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law/righteousness of obeying the law, but under grace/righteousness of faith in Christ. Rom6:14
I'm sorry. But you are testifying to precisely what I have been telling you has been adventist teaching for 160 years. Turning to Christ for righteousness. And good for you. For you, it was in harmony with the 7th commandment. I had similar issues. There is no temptation that is not common to man. The problem is that you don't see, you don't believe, the 4th commandment has any relation to the righteousness of Christ. You think only 9 commandments were written on the heart. Frankly, I don't think that makes any sense. After 4000 years the Sabbath is suddenly done away with. And then reinstituted in the new earth. (Isa66). You say you feel no conviction regarding the Sabbath. Okay. I'm not going to disbelieve you. But I don't think that necessarily means that God had changed His law. Thousands of Christians were put to death over the centuries for observing the Sabbath. And it will happen again. It isn't going away. It is still the day God blessed and sanctified.
IF, the law in the heart was EXACTLY the same as the law written on stone, no one could be a Christian UNLESS they had heartfelt consciousness of sin at failing to observe a set Saturday Sabbath.
As I did respond previously, it's a matter of faith and revelation. Why would God reveal the validity of Sabbath to someone who has already rejected the written word. You keep saying Paul wrote the Sabbath was no longer valid. Every day alike? Where in that passage does he say Sabbath? He attended the synagogue every Sabbath, just as Jesus did. And told the gentiles in Acts 13 to meet him on the Sabbath so he could teach them with interference from the Jews. Why didn't Paul say tomorrow, or Monday, or any other day... no, the whole city turned out on the next Sabbath.
Do you think it correct to tell people they must obey the TC to enter Heaven when you and the people in your denomination transgress those commands? At least tell people you do and be honest.
So only perfectly sinless people have the right to teach that obedience is a good thing? Where in adventist teaching do we claim perfection?
 

Brakelite

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"If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17.
A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or trace all the chain of circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. Christ said to Nicodemus, "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8. Like the wind, which is invisible, yet the effects of which are plainly seen and felt, is the Spirit of God in its work upon the human heart. That regenerating power, which no human eye can see, begets a new life in the soul; it creates a new being in the image of God. While the work of the Spirit is silent and imperceptible, its effects are manifest. If the heart has been renewed by the Spirit of God, the life will bear witness to the fact. While we cannot do anything to change our hearts or to bring ourselves into harmony with God; while we must not trust at all to ourselves or our good works, our lives will reveal whether the grace of God is dwelling within us. A change will be seen in the character, the habits, the pursuits. The contrast will be clear and decided between what they have been and what they are. The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts.
It is true that there may be an outward correctness of deportment without the renewing power of Christ. The love of influence and the desire for the esteem of others may produce a well-ordered life. Self-respect may lead us to avoid the appearance of evil. A selfish heart may perform generous actions. By what means, then, shall we determine whose side we are on?
Who has the heart? With whom are our thoughts? Of whom do we love to converse? Who has our warmest affections and our best energies? If we are Christ's, our thoughts are with Him, and our sweetest thoughts are of Him. All we have and are is consecrated to Him. We long to bear His image, breathe His spirit, do His will, and please Him in all things.
Those who become new creatures in Christ Jesus will bring forth the fruits of the Spirit, "love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance." Galatians 5:22, 23. They will no longer fashion themselves according to the former lusts, but by the faith of the Son of God they will follow in His steps, reflect His character, and purify themselves even as He is pure. The things they once hated they now love, and the things they once loved they hate. The proud and self-assertive become meek and lowly in heart. The vain and supercilious become serious and unobtrusive. The drunken become sober, and the profligate pure. The vain customs and fashions of the world are laid aside. Christians will seek not the "outward adorning," but "the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit." 1 Peter 3:3, 4.
There is no evidence of genuine repentance unless it works reformation. If he restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, confess his sins, and love God and his fellow men, the sinner may be sure that he has passed from death unto life.
When, as erring, sinful beings, we come to Christ and become partakers of His pardoning grace, love springs up in the heart. Every burden is light, for the yoke that Christ imposes is easy. Duty becomes a delight, and sacrifice a pleasure. The path that before seemed shrouded in darkness, becomes bright with beams from the Sun of Righteousness.
The loveliness of the character of Christ will be seen in His followers. It was His delight to do the will of God. Love to God, zeal for His glory, was the controlling power in our Saviour's life. Love beautified and ennobled all His actions. Love is of God. The unconsecrated heart cannot originate or produce it. It is found only in the heart where Jesus reigns. "We love, because He first loved us." 1 John 4:19, R.V. In the heart renewed by divine grace, love is the principle of action. It modifies the character, governs the impulses, controls the passions, subdues enmity, and ennobles the affections. This love, cherished in the soul, sweetens the life and sheds a refining influence on all around.
There are two errors against which the children of God—particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace—especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.
The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.
 

Brakelite

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But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience—the service and allegiance of love—is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the Scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.
We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.
That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The Scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.... He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6. "Because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps." 1 Peter 2:21.
The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,—just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,—perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.
It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.
More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works—works of righteousness, obedience.
So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us.
When we speak of faith, there is a distinction that should be borne in mind. There is a kind of belief that is wholly distinct from faith. The existence and power of God, the truth of His word, are facts that even Satan and his hosts cannot at heart deny. The Bible says that "the devils also believe, and tremble;" but this is not faith. James 2:19. Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith—faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming with the psalmist, "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97. And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1.
There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer, and we shall praise Him who is the health of our countenance.
The closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satan's delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you.
No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ.
The less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image. SC 57.1 - SC 65.2
 

uncle silas

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I'm sorry. But you are testifying to precisely what I have been telling you has been adventist teaching for 160 years. Turning to Christ for righteousness. And good for you. For you, it was in harmony with the 7th commandment. I had similar issues. There is no temptation that is not common to man. The problem is that you don't see, you don't believe, the 4th commandment has any relation to the righteousness of Christ. You think only 9 commandments were written on the heart. Frankly, I don't think that makes any sense. After 4000 years the Sabbath is suddenly done away with. And then reinstituted in the new earth. (Isa66). You say you feel no conviction regarding the Sabbath. Okay. I'm not going to disbelieve you. But I don't think that necessarily means that God had changed His law. Thousands of Christians were put to death over the centuries for observing the Sabbath. And it will happen again. It isn't going away. It is still the day God blessed and sanctified.

As I did respond previously, it's a matter of faith and revelation. Why would God reveal the validity of Sabbath to someone who has already rejected the written word. You keep saying Paul wrote the Sabbath was no longer valid. Every day alike? Where in that passage does he say Sabbath? He attended the synagogue every Sabbath, just as Jesus did. And told the gentiles in Acts 13 to meet him on the Sabbath so he could teach them with interference from the Jews. Why didn't Paul say tomorrow, or Monday, or any other day... no, the whole city turned out on the next Sabbath.

So only perfectly sinless people have the right to teach that obedience is a good thing? Where in adventist teaching do we claim perfection?
Your response shows, that in truth, nothing meaningful can ever be gained by debate on these kind of websites. It hads been proved to you time and time again you and your denominations view of applicable law is at odds with the leaders of the first century christian church. How do you respond? You simply ignore what you have been plainly shown, and continue to try and reason you and your denomination are correct. You appear not to be bothered in the slightest the NT church leaders must have given gentile believers a licence to sin if your denominational view is correct. Why? Because, the only thing that matters to people here, is not admitting to error. No matter how plainly anyone is shown something from the bible on these websites, it will be ignored if it disagrees with a persons denominational view. That must be adhered to come what may.
BTW, I did NOT see sin overcome according to your churches teaching. I doubt many others could either. In the sda church I went to, I saw more flagrant sinning against the TC that in any church I have ever been to on a Sunday in over four decades. And that, is no word of a lie. People were even laughing and joking as they transgressed those commands. Astonishing
It is preaching a message you do not practice in your own lives. I was raised with ''pat sentances'' the people making them could not adhere to themselves. The second greatest commandment is constantly being transgressed
 
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Brakelite

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It hads been proved to you time and time again you and your denominations view of applicable law is at odds with the leaders of the first century christian church.
Proved? You have shown not one shred of evidence that the snag had been changed or abrogated. You pointed out a few quotes from the mentioned the weekly Sabbath. Have you read of the grandeur and mighty scenes that took place on Mt Sinai when the law was given? Have you read of the attention and care and importance with which God held the Sabbath throughout the time of Israel's probation that expired with Christ's death? Have you read how the church is now God's chosen vehicle through which His character of love and tender mercy is to be revealed to the world? Have you read anything of equal grandeur and display of power and awesome glory as on Sinai with the abolition of the 4th commandment? No. It just slid quietly away into obscurity without as much as a whimper. And the entire NT church accepted such a sudden and unexpected dramatic turn of events...a Sabbath to just any day of your choosing... according to you... with no argument. Not even the pharisaical Jews complained. I don't buy it. What you presented was not proof. And it's up to you to prove a change. You haven't.
No matter how plainly anyone is shown something from the bible on these websites, it will be ignored if it disagrees with a persons denominational view.
Well, that may be true in some cases. But if and when the denominational view agrees with the Bible, then all you are left with is your denominational... or non- denominational... view.
 

uncle silas

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Proved? You have shown not one shred of evidence that the snag had been changed or abrogated. You pointed out a few quotes from the mentioned the weekly Sabbath. Have you read of the grandeur and mighty scenes that took place on Mt Sinai when the law was given? Have you read of the attention and care and importance with which God held the Sabbath throughout the time of Israel's probation that expired with Christ's death? Have you read how the church is now God's chosen vehicle through which His character of love and tender mercy is to be revealed to the world? Have you read anything of equal grandeur and display of power and awesome glory as on Sinai with the abolition of the 4th commandment? No. It just slid quietly away into obscurity without as much as a whimper. And the entire NT church accepted such a sudden and unexpected dramatic turn of events...a Sabbath to just any day of your choosing... according to you... with no argument. Not even the pharisaical Jews complained. I don't buy it. What you presented was not proof. And it's up to you to prove a change. You haven't.

Well, that may be true in some cases. But if and when the denominational view agrees with the Bible, then all you are left with is your denominational... or non- denominational... view.
So according to your denominational belief, you are quite content to believe, the leaders of the NT church, including Peter, Paul and James gave gentile converts a licence to sin? Why do you even read the NT if that is view, much less quote the letters of these people?
 
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uncle silas

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Proved? You have shown not one shred of evidence that the snag had been changed or abrogated. You pointed out a few quotes from the mentioned the weekly Sabbath. Have you read of the grandeur and mighty scenes that took place on Mt Sinai when the law was given? Have you read of the attention and care and importance with which God held the Sabbath throughout the time of Israel's probation that expired with Christ's death? Have you read how the church is now God's chosen vehicle through which His character of love and tender mercy is to be revealed to the world? Have you read anything of equal grandeur and display of power and awesome glory as on Sinai with the abolition of the 4th commandment? No. It just slid quietly away into obscurity without as much as a whimper. And the entire NT church accepted such a sudden and unexpected dramatic turn of events...a Sabbath to just any day of your choosing... according to you... with no argument. Not even the pharisaical Jews complained. I don't buy it. What you presented was not proof. And it's up to you to prove a change. You haven't.

Well, that may be true in some cases. But if and when the denominational view agrees with the Bible, then all you are left with is your denominational... or non- denominational... view.
This is the practical reality, I speak from what I have witnessed in one of your churches. The most flagrant sinning against the TC comes from people who relentlessly stress they must be obeyed. Much of the time they do not even know they are transgressing the commands they insist must be obeyed. It is religion without the conviction of the Holy Spirit, because they backed the wrong horse so to speak(Rom7:6) Only the Holy Spirit can lead into spiritual truth, and he is the convictor of sin.
 

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So according to your denominational belief, you are quite content to believe, the leaders of the NT church, including Peter, Paul and James gave gentile converts a licence to sin? Why do you even read the NT if that is view, much less quote the letters of these people?
Please explain how we do that. How our beliefs teach that NT church leaders gave gentile converts license to sin. Paul himself wrote, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. ”
Romans 3:31 KJV
This is the practical reality, I speak from what I have witnessed in one of your churches. The most flagrant sinning against the TC comes from people who relentlessly stress they must be obeyed.
I think you lucked out on that one. I have been to numerous adventist churches in 2 different countries, spanning nearly 3 decades, and found 2 that were not to my liking. Not because they "relentlessly" preached legalistic law keeping (not sure how you can brand the entire denomination as being "relentless" advocates of law keeping after one visit to one church), but because as a stranger I didn't feel welcomed. I felt that in various pentecostal churches also when I was a member of the AOG. Yet it was the love of Christians in an AOG church that drew me to them in the first place. There are no fixed paradigms Silas; people, and their churches, are everywhere different.
That said, I will never cease from stating that the 10 commandments must be obeyed. They are after all, commandments. And nowhere in scripture did anyone offer a "thus sayeth the Lord" , "the commandments are now suggestions."
My experience was to discover the Sabbath in Bible study. I then searched out a church that taught it. I find a local adventist community home church. It was a further 5 years before I chose to become a member of the actual SDA church. That was in 1996. I am not a fanatical follower of denominational teaching. I believe scripture.

“3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. ”
1 John 2:3-6 KJV

See? It isn't only Adventists that teach concerning obedience to God's commandments.
As for dietary laws, that is not, nor has it ever been a test for membership in the SDA church. I do however disagree with your inference that Paul was changing the Maker's operating instructions for the optimum health and well being of the human body.
 

uncle silas

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Please explain how we do that. How our beliefs teach that NT church leaders gave gentile converts license to sin.
I have already plainly showed you. You ignored what you were shown. In Acts ch15, the NT church leaders met to decide which Jewish laws gentiles be asked to follow, four were mentioned, avoiding the levitical unclean foods was not one of them. So, if you and your denomination are correct, the leaders of the first century christian church, gave gentile converts a licence to sin
 
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uncle silas

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That said, I will never cease from stating that the 10 commandments must be obeyed. They are after all, commandments. And nowhere in scripture did anyone offer a "thus sayeth the Lord" , "the commandments are now

“3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. ”
1 John 2:3-6 KJV

See? It isn't only Adventists that teach concerning obedience to God's commandments.
You have also stated, God will not water down his standards, and, if we do not obey the TC, can we really consider ourselves Christians/saved. However, do you consider that to be true concerning all of the TC, or only the fourth one?

Have you any children? If so, would you tell them when they reach puberty, that if they dwelt on any impure thought they would be transgressing the TC, and if they contiuned to do so, they would be a liar to say they know Christ?
Would you tell them, that God willl not water down his law in this regard, and their christianity would be in jeopardy if they continued to transgress the TC in this way?
Would you tell them, that in order to obey the TC they must not dwell on any such thing, and if they did, could they truly consider themselves saved?
Im sure you would not.
Therefore, you immediatley do, what you insist God will not allow. You water the TC down to a place you are comfortable with.
I was raised in an AOG church, ''pat entances'' that were no ones reality were the norm. You and people in your denomination also make pat sentances you do not even try and follow. I cannot do that, my conscience will not allow it. I do not believe anyone led of the Holy Spirt will make ''pat sentances'' of insisting of others what they do not inssit of themself! There is no love in it for your fellow man, therefore, the second greatest commandment is constantly being transgressed
 
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uncle silas

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I think you lucked out on that one.
Have I? One woman in the sda church I went to was immaculately dressed for church with a bible tucked under her arm. She too insisted ''you must obey the TC'' And, if the minister said something she heartily approved of in the sermon, she gave out a hearty ''AMEN''. To look at her, you would think she was the most Godly of people. A short time later I found out she was having multiple affairs, some overlapping. I said to her one day
'How can you do that, you're transgressing the TC?'
She shrugged her shoulders and replied and I quote:
'All sin is equal and no ones perfect'

I could go on and on and on. You see, all of you seem to me to insist of others what you do not insist of yourselves, and it does not seem to bother your consciences to do so.
 
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