Why Do Christians Not Honor The Sabbath?

[jimmyjames]

Meshak was responding to my post and believes that SUNDAY is 'the Sabbath' that is being referred to as do most mainstream Christians.

What you have to say above about Christians gathering on the first day of the week as though this somehow negates the 7th-day Sabbath and replaces it with Sunday is much more than a stretch. These folks were Jews - through and through - and the 7th-day Sabbath would have been ingrained into their very being. The very thought of shucking off that day - without any hint to do so from God - and replacing it with another would have blown their minds. Again, these early Christ-followers were JEWS - this includes Paul - who would have remained loyal to the Torah because there was no reason to do otherwise. Remember, the Torah is ALL that they had!


This is Roman Catholicism! If Protestants want to kowtow to the RCC then all power to them. The above concerning abrogation of the Sabbath, however, is NOT scriptural!


The early Christians were the apostles who were - as said - JEWS. They would have had absolutely no cause NOR AUTHORITY to transfer the solemnity of the Creation Sabbath to any other day. They would NOT have done this! Again, this is RCC teaching!


NOWHERE in scripture does it even hint that Jesus - who was not even crucified and resurrected on Sunday yet! - tossed up in the air dies with the numbers of the days of Creation on them and randomly selected one (Sunday) to be the NEW Creation day when they landed. I'm sorry, but this is all RCC hokum!



Meshak, I believe that you're totally lost on this subject so, since you have nothing of note to contribute, it might be the wise thing for you to withdraw from the topic ...okay?
In Titus 3:9, we are to avoid strivings about the law for they are unprofitable and vain. I would like to see the doors open on Saturday and Sundays for all churches, for we all are doing our best to teach the correct interpretation, but on issues such as these I see no resolve, a topic only ending in desputed arguements causing one Christian to be against another. Our priority is to walk in spirit praising God even if some of our interpretations differ.

 

[KCKID]

Meshak was responding to my post and believes that SUNDAY is 'the Sabbath' that is being referred to as do most mainstream Christians.

What you have to say above about Christians gathering on the first day of the week as though this somehow negates the 7th-day Sabbath and replaces it with Sunday is much more than a stretch. These folks were Jews - through and through - and the 7th-day Sabbath would have been ingrained into their very being. The very thought of shucking off that day - without any hint to do so from God - and replacing it with another would have blown their minds. Again, these early Christ-followers were JEWS - this includes Paul - who would have remained loyal to the Torah because there was no reason to do otherwise. Remember, the Torah is ALL that they had!


This is Roman Catholicism! If Protestants want to kowtow to the RCC then all power to them. The above concerning abrogation of the Sabbath, however, is NOT scriptural!


The early Christians were the apostles who were - as said - JEWS. They would have had absolutely no cause NOR AUTHORITY to transfer the solemnity of the Creation Sabbath to any other day. They would NOT have done this! Again, this is RCC teaching!


NOWHERE in scripture does it even hint that Jesus - who was not even crucified and resurrected on Sunday yet! - tossed up in the air dies with the numbers of the days of Creation on them and randomly selected one (Sunday) to be the NEW Creation day when they landed. I'm sorry, but this is all RCC hokum!



Meshak, I believe that you're totally lost on this subject so, since you have nothing of note to contribute, it might be the wise thing for you to withdraw from the topic ...okay?
In Titus 3:9, we are to avoid strivings about the law for they are unprofitable and vain. I would like to see the doors open on Saturday and Sundays for all churches, for we all are doing our best to teach the correct interpretation, but on issues such as these I see no resolve, a topic only ending in desputed arguements causing one Christian to be against another. Our priority is to walk in spirit praising God even if some of our interpretations differ.

Very good. That our interpretations of the scriptures DO differ from person to person is the very purpose of this thread. Sometimes one needs to play the role of the devil's advocate to drive the point home. It's not up to me or my church to tell other people what and how to believe or on what day they should worship - even when we might adamantly insist that the Bible supports our position. Very little in the Bible is black and white - certainly not for every individual unless one happens to be a fundamentalist, of course. We therefore need to pull our horns in whenever we encounter someone who holds a different position on Bible interpretation to our own. Debating certain issues is one thing ...demeaning, insulting and mocking someone for not sharing our specific belief is entirely another.

Thanks very much for your post and thanks to all others that contributed to the thread.

 

[excubitor]

Christ said "I will build my church"
How could it be said that he was building a completely new religious institution if that new system of religion kept all the days of the old religion of the Jews?

The scripture teaches that the church is the pillar and the ground of truth. Christ said to the church whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatsoever is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. So it is by the authority of the church which Christ built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets that we keep Sunday and not Saturday.

The apostle John in Revelation 1 said "I was in the spirit on the Lords day". So clearly there was a day of the week which was regarded by early Christians and the apostles as being the Lord's day. Acts 20:7 shows that the apostles had a tradition of meeting on the 1st day of the week.

Also the scriptures show that the Jews by keeping the sabbath day failed to enter into the Sabbath rest of God which is why of old "another day" was prophecied to be given by which the saints could enter perpetually into the rest of God. This is all explained in Hebrews 4.

Furthermore, the ancient histories of the church are emphatic that the church from the earliest of times kept the 1st day. eg.
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master." Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Christ said "I will build my church"
How could it be said that he was building a completely new religious institution if that new system of religion kept all the days of the old religion of the Jews?

The scripture teaches that the church is the pillar and the ground of truth. Christ said to the church whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatsoever is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. So it is by the authority of the church which Christ built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets that we keep Sunday and not Saturday.

The apostle John in Revelation 1 said "I was in the spirit on the Lords day". So clearly there was a day of the week which was regarded by early Christians and the apostles as being the Lord's day. Acts 20:7 shows that the apostles had a tradition of meeting on the 1st day of the week.

Also the scriptures show that the Jews by keeping the sabbath day failed to enter into the Sabbath rest of God which is why of old "another day" was prophecied to be given by which the saints could enter perpetually into the rest of God. This is all explained in Hebrews 4.

Furthermore, the ancient histories of the church are emphatic that the church from the earliest of times kept the 1st day. eg.
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master." Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

In regards to further ancient historical practice I draw your attention . see below.

Furthermore, In regards to early history keeping of sabbath you will find if you dig deep enough that it was common as time went on to worship on the sabbath and fellowship on the Sunday. However sabbath was always practiced, it just depended on whether you were from Rome and Alexandria or asia Minor.

Until the time(oppurtunity) when the Roman church sort to enforce Sunday only worship in which most complied but not all. This was the second great step away from the scriptures to their own Authority, The first was the 'quartodecimanism controversy'. i.e. 14 nisan passover/Lords supper verse Easter/pagan celebration.



Socrates [439 AD]--: "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, {yet the "Christians" of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this}. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebais, hold their religious assemblies on the Sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries." (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 132.)

Sozomen [460 A.D.]– "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, {which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria}. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries." (Ecc. History, Book 7, chap. 19. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 390.)

 

[KCKID]

Christ said "I will build my church"
How could it be said that he was building a completely new religious institution if that new system of religion kept all the days of the old religion of the Jews?

The scripture teaches that the church is the pillar and the ground of truth. Christ said to the church whatsoever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatsoever is loosed on earth will be loosed in heaven. So it is by the authority of the church which Christ built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets that we keep Sunday and not Saturday.

The apostle John in Revelation 1 said "I was in the spirit on the Lords day". So clearly there was a day of the week which was regarded by early Christians and the apostles as being the Lord's day. Acts 20:7 shows that the apostles had a tradition of meeting on the 1st day of the week.

Also the scriptures show that the Jews by keeping the sabbath day failed to enter into the Sabbath rest of God which is why of old "another day" was prophecied to be given by which the saints could enter perpetually into the rest of God. This is all explained in Hebrews 4.

Furthermore, the ancient histories of the church are emphatic that the church from the earliest of times kept the 1st day. eg.
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death--whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master." Ignatius, To the Magnesians, 9:1 (A.D. 110).

After my last post I was ready to call it quits having given my reasons for doing so. However, I would just like to address some of your above post. It seems as though the RCC most definitely believed that IT became the new religious institution that you speak of. It pretty well usurped the status of God on earth and did indeed initiate it's own holy days and the changing of laws. By its own authority it abrogated the Sabbath and installed another day - Sunday - in its place. If Protestants are okay with kowtowing to the RCC - and obviously they are - then I guess that's their business.

As for 'the Lord's Day' as found in Revelation 1:10 ...when taken in context with the rest of Revelation that text is almost certainly referring to 'the day of the Lord' which, generally speaking, refers to the time when the day of man, or "the times of the Gentiles", will be brought to an end and "the Lord alone shall be exalted (Isaiah 2:11-17)." Actually, references to 'the day of the Lord' in this context is found in many places in the OT and 4/5 places in the NT. It's unlikely that Revelation 1:10 has anything to do with Saturday or Sunday or ANY day for that matter. It's more likely referring to 'a period of time'. THAT SAID, if one wants to make a case for Sunday being 'the Lord's day' they will be hard pressed getting such from the Bible. Jesus Himself referred to Himself as being 'Lord of the Sabbath' so it's not too much a stretch to say that the Sabbath is 'the day of which Jesus is Lord'. Additionally, Isaiah specifically refers to the Sabbath as "the Lord's day (Isaiah 58:13-14)." So, there is NO DOUBT that 'the Lord's day' is the Sabbath. AGAIN, the RCC is responsible for the erroneous interpretation of 'the Lord's day' refering to 'Sunday'. I often wonder where the majority of Christians get their info from ...NOT the Bible evidently!

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi kcid, i guess after all the posts you finally got the answer you "wanted" to hear, but thats ok, thats how the majority of christians are. you are not alone.

1Co_3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

And as regards your comment,

I often wonder where the majority of Christians get their info from ...NOT the Bible evidently!

The problem is just that, that is where the majority of christians get there answer from, didnt you?? Yes very few do as Jesus asked,

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Again you are not alone, did not Jesus say the way was narrow and very few will find it, and He was the way. Makes you think doesnt it.

Not many Spirit led Christans, foolish virgins not filling there lamps.

Joh_15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Yes it is all about Jesus, so few ever go to Him.

In all His Love

 

[excubitor]

In regards to further ancient historical practice I draw your attention . see below.

Furthermore, In regards to early history keeping of sabbath you will find if you dig deep enough that it was common as time went on to worship on the sabbath and fellowship on the Sunday. However sabbath was always practiced, it just depended on whether you were from Rome and Alexandria or asia Minor.

Until the time(oppurtunity) when the Roman church sort to enforce Sunday only worship in which most complied but not all. This was the second great step away from the scriptures to their own Authority, The first was the 'quartodecimanism controversy'. i.e. 14 nisan passover/Lords supper verse Easter/pagan celebration.

Your comprehension of the Quartodeciman controversy is totally incorrect. I suggest that you research on the subject. There is not a hint of paganism in any of the texts which cover the various quartodeciman controversies. You are clearly being fed propaganda and are failing to check things for yourselves.

I am not aware of any historic record of enforcement of Sunday keeping until the Council of Laodicea which imposed it in a particular region as a consequence of Judaisers making inroads into those communities. Every historic record I have ever found proves that Christians were partaking of the Lord's supper on the Lord's day which is of course Sunday.

Socrates [439 AD]--: "For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, [/size]{yet the "[/size]Christians" of [/size]Alexandria and at [/size]Rome, [/size]on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this[/size]}. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebais, hold their religious assemblies on the Sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries." (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 132.) [/size]

Notice that there is no mention of anybody being forced from keeping Sabbath. There is no question that the apostles and christians continued to attend the synagogue in order to preach the gospel to the jews in every city and town. However this quote points out that the Eucharistic mystery was not partaken until the evening. Just as the Sabbath went from Friday evening to Saturday evening. The Lord's day goes from Saturday evening to Sunday evening. Even today Christians, particular Catholics, meet for vigil masses on Saturday evening as according to the ancient custom recorded here by Socrates.

Sozomen [460 A.D.]– "The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, [/size]{which [/size]custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria}. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries." (Ecc. History, Book 7, chap. 19. Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers. Second Series, Vol. 2, p. 390.) [/size]

Again, this confirms what I have always said. That Christians have been meeting on the first day of the week from the beginning. The shift from Sabbath keeping to Sunday keeping was made without any discord or controversy. The only way that this could be so is because the apostles made rulings which forbade the commanding of the Sabbath. In fact this is recorded at the Council of Jerusalem when the gentiles were admitted into the church that they were pressured to be circumcised. The apostles ruled that no burden (INCLUDING THE SABBATH) was to be placed upon the gentiles except that they avoid fornication and the eating of blood for the sake of the sensibilities of the Jews.

THIS IS UTTER PROOF, that the Jews were not at all offended that gentiles were not required to keep the Sabbath. That being the case, why do some of us today take a stern and forbidding attitude towards their brothers and try to compel them to keep the Sabbath after the practice of the Jews?

 

[KCKID]

Every historic record I have ever found proves that Christians were partaking of the Lord's supper on the Lord's day which is of course Sunday.

While I want to pretty well wrap up this topic I'd like to draw your attention to just two posts up from yours. I already explained in that post - as per the Bible and not as per the RCC - that the Lord's day is the Sabbath. Isaiah 58:13-14 CLEARLY tells us that the Lord's day is the Sabbath. Some of you fellows appear to speak with such scriptural authority but it's unclear as to where you get your theology from. You certainly did not get 'the Lord's day=Sunday from the Bible! Take it up with Isaiah if you don't agree. Also with Jesus who also clearly stated that the Sabbath is the day that He is Lord of, i.e. the Lord's day.

 

[jiggyfly]

We see through many stories in the Bible that outward religion can covers up the true condition of the heart. The manifestations of the Fruit of the Spirit is not religious activity, but peace, love, gentleness, hope, etc. Certainly not worry and unbelief or works of self-righteousness.

Whenever you have outward rules you must by definition have exceptions which are not mentioned in the NT.

Many people cannot physically rest on Saturday as they are in labor camps working 7 days a week. Where is the exception for this? Are they not honoring the Lord with their trust and faith in Him? Is it not true REST to be resting from your own labors of righteousness and trust in Christ's work?

Are those who must physically work on Saturday to feed their family not resting in the Lord, spiritually? Are we going to judge their faith in God, their spiritual disposition and position in Christ?

Does God put a higher premium on physical rest as opposed to spiritual rest?

Jesus was speaking about spiritual things in the following verse.
Mat_11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the 4th commandment. He is the DAY of Salvation. He is our DAY, everyday!!

Jesus offers a much Better REST than the type and shadow of physical rest in the OT. We are to be resting in Him 7 days a week not 1 day. My good works could never bring me peace or save me. I have rested from these and taken up His offer to come to Him for His REST. Why would I want an inferior rest, a shadow or type from the past?

Hebrews 4:1–2 says, “God';s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news — that God has prepared this rest — has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn';t share the faith of those who listened to God.” But there is one condition for entering into this rest, the better rest in Jesus Christ: We have to believe! (Hebrews 4:3).
The writer of Hebrews tells us, “So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God';s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world” (Hebrews 4:9–10). This is a different rest, a better rest, because it is an everlasting rest. It is the rest Jesus gives us that allows us to cease from all work when it comes to earning our salvation, and it is the rest we have in knowing that we don't need to rely on our own strength to live the lives God wants us to live.

When the writer of Hebrews wrote, “So in my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,'” he was quoting Psalm 95:11, which refers to the generation of Israelites who, because of their unbelief and rebellion, died in the wilderness without seeing the Promised Land.

Jesus Christ can be your REST 7 days a week. Will you believe and trust in Him or will you die in the wildnerness of rebellion?

Jesus is the "Better Rest" of God.

The promised land was a picture of Godʼs eternal rest in Jesus and their unbelief excluded them from it, the author is guessing that some of us are wondering if there still is a rest for Godʼs people. Whenever the New Testament uses the word Sabbath in a positive lightitʼs talking about the rest we have in Jesus, having completed the work for us on the cross. It ʼs not just a day of the week we take to reflect on the cross, but itʼs now an everyday thing where we get to enjoy God and be refreshed through His rest. So every day becomes a Sabbath. We can work, play and enjoy life to Godʼs glory all while resting in the finished work of Jesus.

Axehead

Very good post Axe, but most of it will probably be ignored in order to maintain position. I find it ludicrous that Kid assumes that we all participate in either Sabbath or Sunday worship, like there are no other options. But when one understands the crux of what God has done in the new and better covenant there is no rest in either of them and the truth rests in as you stated above "So every day becomes a Sabbath". When Pentecost is understood in a fuller way this becomes very visible. God commanded Israel to remember/celebrate Pentecost by ceasing from ALL work, signifying the end of all religious acts and ceremony but even the Jewish disciples with the exception of Paul struggled with this and today the struggle continues until one seeks and receives revelation from HolySpirit. But one usually does not go to seeking truth until error is shown in what they believe to be true. When this process begins some will simply ignore the proof of error and just continue on in their religious paradigms never moving into the search for truth. Tis a good tool for the enemy to use against us, I call it religious pride.

I have suffered from it many times in the past and probably have some areas still that I am not aware of yet. But just like a steel bar our minds become softer the more we let HolySpirit bend our thinking and it does get easier to adjust our thinking. While error can be revealed in these forums, an adjustment to our thinking does not happen here but rather in prayer with Father.

 

[Polt]

I think Christians keep the Sabbath on Sunday. Every Sunday is the 7th day, a span of time that exists because of the creation week. On Sunday, we rest, just as the word Sabbath means.

Where is it said God started Creation on a Monday? It seems to be that the the only point of Saturday sabbath was to maintain 7 day spans. "Sabbath" itself doesn't mean Saturday or seven. And, not every Sabbath observed on the Old Testament or in the New Testament was on Saturday, but there were some additional sabbaths not on Saturday. Where it said that the sabbath in the Ten Commandments must be Saturday? We're told we have 6 days to work and then to rest of the 7th day. That's exactly what we do (okay, we work 5 days).

Christians, of course, put Sunday aside because this is the day of the Resurrection, the most important event in all history. It eclipses even creation itself.

I think it's valid for someone to want to observe the Sabbath on Saturday (which is why we have a five-day work week), yet only "cults" do this.

 

[excubitor]

While I want to pretty well wrap up this topic I'd like to draw your attention to just two posts up from yours. I already explained in that post - as per the Bible and not as per the RCC - that the Lord's day is the Sabbath. Isaiah 58:13-14 CLEARLY tells us that the Lord's day is the Sabbath. Some of you fellows appear to speak with such scriptural authority but it's unclear as to where you get your theology from. You certainly did not get 'the Lord's day=Sunday from the Bible! Take it up with Isaiah if you don't agree. Also with Jesus who also clearly stated that the Sabbath is the day that He is Lord of, i.e. the Lord's day.

I have already stated that authority to change Saturday to Sunday worship is not authorised by the scripture. I have clearly stated that this authority comes from the church. Take it up with Jesus who is the head of the church if you don't agree. The church stated in the first century that the Lord's day is Sunday.
Protestants who reject the authority of the church in their lives and rely upon scripture alone to be their guide need to take a good hard look at why they worship on Sunday. The scripture provides no adequate warrant for this. Protestants who worship on Sunday are following the traditions of the ancient church. If the traditions of the ancient church are regarded by Protestants as such an authority as to change the Sabbath from Sunday then those same traditions should be consulted as an authority on a great range of other issues which cause division amongst Christians

 

[Axehead]

Allow me to expose a little hypocrisy here. No one keeps the Sabbath according to Isaiah 58:13

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

In other words, you can’t sit around and talk about the good times. You cannot talk about fishing or hunting or sports or organic gardening or making bread. You can’t talk about your new building project or what the kids have been doing that week and how funny it was. You couldn't get together with the family and friends and laugh and have a good time on the Sabbath.

You couldn't “speak your own words”. The Sabbath was the time to speak only the words of God. So picture this, everyone is staying at home, no one is going in or out, no one is carrying a load, no one cooking anything. Everyone in a state of total relaxation, just praying, singing and speaking the words of God for the 24 hours. That is the way they kept the Sabbath.

And if they violated this in anyway, the penalty was death.

Now, today's "Sabbath Keepers" will tell you that there is no penalty anymore for breaking the law. But, have you ever heard of a law without a penalty. The very nature of a law implies a penalty. Then, they will tell you that God has relaxed the requirements of keeping the Sabbath and you don't really have to keep it as strict as God says to keep it in Isaiah 58.

Do you see where this is all going? Fleshly, Carnal Religion is nothing but situational ethics and just like the Pharisees, waters down the requirements of God to suit themselves. They water it down enough so that God's law is not odious to the flesh while making themselves look religious to the naive. You will find that they water other things in the Bible that their flesh does not like.

Here is what God says about fleshly religion: Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. (Luke 16:15)

So, don't tell me you keep the Sabbath, because you don't. Going to a Church building on Saturday or Sunday or Tuesday is not keeping the Sabbath according to the Bible.

The real question and the heart of the matter is do you keep your relationship with the Lord (the true Sabbath rest) everyday? Do you know what that is? Are you abiding in the Lord, listening to Him, yielding to Him and following Him everyday? You see, abiding in the Lord is not once a week and those that try to keep the law will justify to themselves that they are keeping it perfectly. That is self-deception.

Please don't try to convince any of us that you keep the Sabbath. We know you can't and don't.

The Lord does not ignore the worship and devotion of His Body because they are meeting on Friday or Tuesday or Thursday.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (no longer under the law. The law was our schoolmaster).
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the letter of the law and even went beyond it. Those who follow Jesus and walk in love have fulfilled the law.


Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom_8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


Axehead

 

[KCKID]

1. I think Christians keep the Sabbath on Sunday. Every Sunday is the 7th day, a span of time that exists because of the creation week. On Sunday, we rest, just as the word Sabbath means.

2. Where is it said God started Creation on a Monday? It seems to be that the the only point of Saturday sabbath was to maintain 7 day spans. "Sabbath" itself doesn't mean Saturday or seven. And, not every Sabbath observed on the Old Testament or in the New Testament was on Saturday, but there were some additional sabbaths not on Saturday. Where it said that the sabbath in the Ten Commandments must be Saturday? We're told we have 6 days to work and then to rest of the 7th day. That's exactly what we do (okay, we work 5 days).

3. Christians, of course, put Sunday aside because this is the day of the Resurrection, the most important event in all history. It eclipses even creation itself.

4. I think it's valid for someone to want to observe the Sabbath on Saturday (which is why we have a five-day work week), yet only "cults" do this.

1. Um ...Sunday is NOT the 7th-day of the weekly cycle but the first. So, strike one.

2. Um ...Monday is NOT the 1st-day of the weekly cycle .. .Sunday is. So, strike two. Sabbath means 'rest'. Yes, there were also ceremonial sabbaths and, every once in a while a ceremonial sabbath fell on the same day as the weekly cycle Sabbath. The Crucifixion week springs to mind. The ceremonial holy days and sabbaths are those that pointed to the Messiah and are those that were nailed to the cross no longer applicable to the Gentile after the Resurrection. Paul refers to them as 'ordinances'. Whether carved into stone or written on our hearts, the contents of the Ten Commandments are still binding.

One more time, the 7th-day (the days were numbered numeretically in biblical times) is the equivalent of our Saturday. It's not too difficult to know which day the Sabbath is ...the jews have been keeping that day since - and way before - Jesus' time.

3. It doesn't matter what Christians 'decide' to do. They do all kinds of things that are not necessarily scriptural. Transferring the MEANING behind the 7th-day Sabbath to Sunday is unscriptural and, um, rather stupid. Christians were never asked to commemorate a day to the Resurrection. We do so, however, every Easter. Doing so each week is entirely unnecessary. As for the Resurrection eclipsing Creation ...without Creation none of us would be here talking about it, would we?

4. Why would those who believe that the 4th-command of the Big Ten to be still adhered to be referred to as a cult? Even if they don't need to THEY believe that they're doing the right thing. Seems to me that those that followed the RCC who were responsible for Sunday worship would be more the cult. That said, by definition all religions are a cult.

I have already stated that authority to change Saturday to Sunday worship is not authorised by the scripture. I have clearly stated that this authority comes from the church. Take it up with Jesus who is the head of the church if you don't agree. The church stated in the first century that the Lord's day is Sunday.

Ah, THE CHURCH, of course ...! I wonder that your confirming what I've already alluded to with regard to the RCC has not opened up a can of worms with such as mjrhealth, Axehead, etc. who claim that the abrogation of the Sabbath (and the subsequent installation of Sunday) is all scriptural. Hmmm . . .I'd like to hear from them on this. It's been my belief for many years that what we're discussing here has nothing to do with scripture but everything to do with POST-scripture.

Protestants who reject the authority of the church in their lives and rely upon scripture alone to be their guide need to take a good hard look at why they worship on Sunday. The scripture provides no adequate warrant for this. Protestants who worship on Sunday are following the traditions of the ancient church. If the traditions of the ancient church are regarded by Protestants as such an authority as to change the Sabbath from Sunday then those same traditions should be consulted as an authority on a great range of other issues which cause division amongst Christians

As mentioned, I'd like to hear from mjrhealth, Axehead, etc. with regard to what you say above. You're pretty well confirming what I've believed for many years.

Allow me to expose a little hypocrisy here. No one keeps the Sabbath according to Isaiah 58:13

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

In other words, you can’t sit around and talk about the good times. You cannot talk about fishing or hunting or sports or organic gardening or making bread. You can’t talk about your new building project or what the kids have been doing that week and how funny it was. You couldn't get together with the family and friends and laugh and have a good time on the Sabbath.

You couldn't “speak your own words”. The Sabbath was the time to speak only the words of God. So picture this, everyone is staying at home, no one is going in or out, no one is carrying a load, no one cooking anything. Everyone in a state of total relaxation, just praying, singing and speaking the words of God for the 24 hours. That is the way they kept the Sabbath.

And if they violated this in anyway, the penalty was death.

Now, today's "Sabbath Keepers" will tell you that there is no penalty anymore for breaking the law. But, have you ever heard of a law without a penalty. The very nature of a law implies a penalty. Then, they will tell you that God has relaxed the requirements of keeping the Sabbath and you don't really have to keep it as strict as God says to keep it in Isaiah 58.

Do you see where this is all going? Fleshly, Carnal Religion is nothing but situational ethics and just like the Pharisees, waters down the requirements of God to suit themselves. They water it down enough so that God's law is not odious to the flesh while making themselves look religious to the naive. You will find that they water other things in the Bible that their flesh does not like.

Here is what God says about fleshly religion: Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. (Luke 16:15)

So, don't tell me you keep the Sabbath, because you don't. Going to a Church building on Saturday or Sunday or Tuesday is not keeping the Sabbath according to the Bible.

The real question and the heart of the matter is do you keep your relationship with the Lord (the true Sabbath rest) everyday? Do you know what that is? Are you abiding in the Lord, listening to Him, yielding to Him and following Him everyday? You see, abiding in the Lord is not once a week and those that try to keep the law will justify to themselves that they are keeping it perfectly. That is self-deception.

Please don't try to convince any of us that you keep the Sabbath. We know you can't and don't.

The Lord does not ignore the worship and devotion of His Body because they are meeting on Friday or Tuesday or Thursday.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (no longer under the law. The law was our schoolmaster).
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Jesus fulfilled the letter of the law and even went beyond it. Those who follow Jesus and walk in love have fulfilled the law.


Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom_8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


Axehead

You're dead right, Axehead. During all of my years with the SDA Church I would question their keeping of the Sabbath regularly ...not often to others but in my own mind. Showing up for church at 8:30am and staying there until 12noon Saturday seemed to be the fulfilling of 'keeping the Sabbath' for many, perhaps even most. And, as you say above, after church much of the goings on, thoughts, conversations, etc. revolved around everything but Jesus. Attempts might have been made by the pastor - Friday evening/Saturday afternoon programs and such - to keep the focus on Jesus but it all fell way short of biblical Sabbath-keeping. I'm not being critical here, people are people and I thought that was fine, but it was hardly Sabbath-keeping as per the Bible and this IS, after all, what SDAs claim to do. I remember when, after I mentioned something similar to what I said above, someone responding with, "No, we can't possibly keep the Sabbath today (as you say above) as they did in scripture, but we at least ACKNOWLEDGE the 7th-day Sabbath.

My main interest in this topic is WHY and HOW the Sabbath was abrogated and WHY and HOW the Christian 'Sunday Sabbath' came about. I believe that it came about from an outside (of the Bible) influence and history tends to support this. So, this means that there could be something somewhat devious afoot. SDAs certainly believe this. I'd be interested in your comments to the post/s of excubitor.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Your comprehension of the Quartodeciman controversy is totally incorrect. I suggest that you research on the subject. There is not a hint of paganism in any of the texts which cover the various quartodeciman controversies. You are clearly being fed propaganda and are failing to check things for yourselves.

I am not aware of any historic record of enforcement of Sunday keeping until the Council of Laodicea which imposed it in a particular region as a consequence of Judaisers making inroads into those communities. Every historic record I have ever found proves that Christians were partaking of the Lord's supper on the Lord's day which is of course Sunday.Notice that there is no mention of anybody being forced from keeping Sabbath. There is no question that the apostles and christians continued to attend the synagogue in order to preach the gospel to the jews in every city and town. However this quote points out that the Eucharistic mystery was not partaken until the evening. Just as the Sabbath went from Friday evening to Saturday evening. The Lord's day goes from Saturday evening to Sunday evening. Even today Christians, particular Catholics, meet for vigil masses on Saturday evening as according to the ancient custom recorded here by Socrates.Again, this confirms what I have always said. That Christians have been meeting on the first day of the week from the beginning. The shift from Sabbath keeping to Sunday keeping was made without any discord or controversy. The only way that this could be so is because the apostles made rulings which forbade the commanding of the Sabbath. In fact this is recorded at the Council of Jerusalem when the gentiles were admitted into the church that they were pressured to be circumcised. The apostles ruled that no burden (INCLUDING THE SABBATH) was to be placed upon the gentiles except that they avoid fornication and the eating of blood for the sake of the sensibilities of the Jews.

THIS IS UTTER PROOF, that the Jews were not at all offended that gentiles were not required to keep the Sabbath. That being the case, why do some of us today take a stern and forbidding attitude towards their brothers and try to compel them to keep the Sabbath after the practice of the Jews?

Don't be stupid man. My understanding of the Quartodeciman controversy is correct. Moreover, what paganism are your referring to?

​Provide the so-called authoritative sources you are quoting. Secondly there are different ways of enforcing something like the change from sabbath to sunday, it doesn't always go by force. Why don't you seek out the source I provided KCKID on the sabbath and then get back to me.

I would suggest that either your historical facts are faulty or your interpretation of them are.

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi KCID, i may have got you wrong and i do apologise, and again axehead always a good read. As for the church teh only authority it has is what is given it by men. The C church is going to have enough problems to deal with, all that is hidden will be revealed, it is in the papers daily for all the wrong reasons, I will leave it at that.

Why KCID, men love the flesh, come to me like little children is something men struggle with, When was the last time you where rewarded for doing nothing, so men strive to please God, but it is all the works of the flesh, it is all vanity all counts for nought.

Few are led by the spirit and many claim they do but all they want is justification for " what the bible says", it is sad, but the day is coming when men will run too and fro looking for His word and He "Jesus" will no longer be found as He prepares for His wedding feast, and many many christians will not make it, left outside while those who they laughed at and called fools will be inside enjoying His company.

Be not wise in your own eyes, be humble and seek the Lord for answers, they will come in time, it is where you learn patients. So few will ever enjoy the wonders of His presence.

In All His Love

 

[James Forthwright]

Allow me to expose a little hypocrisy here. No one keeps the Sabbath according to Isaiah 58:13

I might also comment that no one 'lives every moment of everyday unto the Lord' either. But that shouldn't deter us from striving unto perfection to the best of our spiritually regenerated human abilities.

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
In other words, you can’t sit around and talk about the good times. You cannot talk about fishing or hunting or sports or organic gardening or making bread. You can’t talk about your new building project or what the kids have been doing that week and how funny it was. You couldn't get together with the family and friends and laugh and have a good time on the Sabbath.

One of the reasons to possess a number of different Bible translations is to examine some fine distinctions between them in certain passages:

(ESV) "If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight and the holy day of the LORD honorable; if you honor it, not going your own ways, or seeking your own pleasure, or talking idly;

(NJB) If you refrain from breaking the Sabbath, from taking your own pleasure on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath 'Delightful', and the day sacred to Yahweh 'Honourable', if you honour it by abstaining from travel, from seeking your own pleasure and from too much talk,

or in simpler English:

(MSG) "If you watch your step on the Sabbath and don't use my holy day for personal advantage, If you treat the Sabbath as a day of joy, GOD's holy day as a celebration, If you honor it by refusing 'business as usual,' making money, running here and there--

You couldn't “speak your own words”. The Sabbath was the time to speak only the words of God. So picture this, everyone is staying at home, no one is going in or out, no one is carrying a load, no one cooking anything. Everyone in a state of total relaxation, just praying, singing and speaking the words of God for the 24 hours. That is the way they kept the Sabbath.

What is so difficult about preparing a few meals beforehand, being totally relaxed or worshiping the LORD, turning off the TV and your phone or refraining from talk about the mundane for 24 hours? There are other spiritual edifying activities as well such as, reading God's Word, listening to gospel music, witnessing to unbelievers, participating in scriptural debates such as these, etc. The point is to allow the Holy Spirit to direct your activities for that day. It's not all that difficult and it does begin to become 'a delight', a spiritual retreat and blessing that one earnestly looks forward to each weekend. Try it, you may like it!

And if they violated this in anyway, the penalty was death.
Now, today's "Sabbath Keepers" will tell you that there is no penalty anymore for breaking the law. But, have you ever heard of a law without a penalty. The very nature of a law implies a penalty. Then, they will tell you that God has relaxed the requirements of keeping the Sabbath and you don't really have to keep it as strict as God says to keep it in Isaiah 58.

If I'm not mistaken, there was only ONE INSTANCE recorded in the entire Bible of someone actually being put to death for violating the Sabbath. God made the violation of the Sabbath a capital offense to underscore the importance and sacredness of the Holy Sabbath, not to thin the herd or establish Pharisaical SVP's (Sabbath Violation Police). I leave it up to God to dispense the penalties for refusing to follow one of the Ten Commandments.

Do you see where this is all going? Fleshly, Carnal Religion is nothing but situational ethics and just like the Pharisees, waters down the requirements of God to suit themselves. They water it down enough so that God's law is not odious to the flesh while making themselves look religious to the naive. You will find that they water other things in the Bible that their flesh does not like.
Here is what God says about fleshly religion: Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Luke]Luke 16:15[/url

Sabbath observance is a blessing, Axehead. There's nothing “fleshly” about it. It's a practical weekly exercise of spirituality. Because one can't always be completely perfect in its observance does not negate their spiritual obligation to obey the fourth commandment as they do the other nine. As I see it, the Ten Commandments are arranged in a hierarchical arrangement. The first four deal with our obligations to Our Creator, the other six relate to how we are to treat our fellow man. Number Four is certainly ranks high on that divinely inscribed list.

So, don't tell me you keep the Sabbath, because you don't. Going to a Church building on Saturday or Sunday or Tuesday is not keeping the Sabbath according to the Bible. The Lord does not ignore the worship and devotion of His Body because they are meeting on Friday or Tuesday or Thursday.

I do the best I can, sir. And when I fall short of the mark, I humbly ask God's mercy and forgiveness relying upon the Lord Jesus Christ's perfect earthly observance as the ideal example of obedience to the Heavenly Father.
And you are somewhat in error, certainly worship services and scripture readings were often held on the Sabbath (and other days as well) but you are correct in that, attending such services for an hour or two was NOT considered as fulfilling all the requirements of this sacred day. That may be an integral PART of honoring the Sabbath but should never be considered as completely 'keeping the Sabbath day holy' as some Christians assume. It is, indeed, a 24 hour commitment and why not observe the same exact day that Christ and His disciples observed?

The real question and the heart of the matter is do you keep your relationship with the Lord (the true Sabbath rest) everyday? Do you know what that is? Are you abiding in the Lord, listening to Him, yielding to Him and following Him everyday? You see, abiding in the Lord is not once a week and those that try to keep the law will justify to themselves that they are keeping it perfectly. That is self-deception.

God understands that we have many earthly commitments and a myriad of menial tasks that consume our daily existence. What the Sabbath does is provide a needed respite from all this terrestrial toil to purposely direct and concentrate our thoughts and deeds (as much as is humanly possible) upon a higher ethereal plane which is difficult at best on the other days of the work week. Of course, this does not mean that the rest of the week God is to be forgotten or totally ignored. We are to walk in the Spirit everyday and especially on the Sabbath.

Jesus fulfilled the letter of the law and even went beyond it. Those who follow Jesus and walk in love have fulfilled the law.

Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom_8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Yes, the love embodied in the Two Cardinal commandments are a fitting summation of the Ten Commandments but they do not nullify our obligation to observe any of the other commandments which God Himself etched in stone. I would also like to add, that it is not my intention to lay any charge against non-Sabbath observers or to condemn them. My only intent to relay what a true blessing it is to follow Christ's (and the twelve apostle's) earthly example in 'keeping the Sabbath day holy'.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes, the love embodied in the Two Cardinal commandments are a fitting summation of the Ten Commandments but they do not nullify our obligation to observe any of the other commandments which God Himself etched in stone. I would also like to add, that it is not my intention to lay any charge against non-Sabbath observers or to condemn them. My only intent to relay what a true blessing it is to follow Christ's (and the twelve apostle's) earthly example in 'keeping the Sabbath day holy'.

But you do state that you consider it an obligation.
Yet Paul states the ten commandments carved in stone have been replaced by the new way of walking by/with HolySpirit. The new covenant scriptures bear this out, even among the disciples' walk with HolySpirit. You must remember that the new covenant wasn't administrated until Christ's ascension. It's there in the first part of the book of Acts of the Apostles.

 

[KCKID]

But you do state that you consider it an obligation.
Yet Paul states the ten commandments carved in stone have been replaced by the new way of walking by/with HolySpirit. The new covenant scriptures bear this out, even among the disciples' walk with HolySpirit. You must remember that the new covenant wasn't administrated until Christ's ascension. It's there in the first part of the book of Acts of the Apostles.

While I still personally don't care who keeps what day the move from Sabbath to Sunday was an 'illegal' move initiated by other than God and that's a fact. Unless Paul is God - and to some he most certainly is given the same status - he has no authority to change what has been carved into stone. Unless one is walking around in a 'Holy Spirit' stupor all day long and incapable of making their own decisions one MUST adhere to SOME level of appropriate/inappropriate behavior even though we might hate to call it - <gasp> - 'works'. It's like driving a car ...we might not be conscious of the road rules but we subconsciously keep them anyway ...hopefully. As it is, the majority of Christians follow one another to church on Sundays because that's the way it's always been. But, that's not necessarily the way that it should be or was intended to be.

For me, it's not so much promoting one day over another but the realization that Christians, for the most part, have no idea what they actually believe in. It's just a mish-mash of this belief, that belief, mix 'em up and choose the belief that is convenient.

By the way, the post of James Forthwright was very good. Thanks James.

 

[Axehead]

James, I do appreciate your heart on several different things and all I can say is that those who know Christ and have learned the things of the Spirit and how to walk by the Spirit do not compartmentalize their activities in life. For those that are in Christ, all they do or say or think, whether working, eating, sleeping or playing, they do to the glory of God and in all their activities they are commanded to walk by the Spirit. We don't live a life for God and a life for ourselves and keep them both separate. Jesus said, if we came to Him, He would give us rest. Rest from our own strivings to please God and perform for Him. Rest from our own religious works. And He gives us this rest because He has plunged us INTO HIM and brought us back into 24x7x365 fellowship with Him. Walking by the Spirit and knowing Christ prevents one from putting outward laws and regulations on others or even talking about it. The fact that people that call themselves Christians even talk about these things is already troublesome and absolutely foreign to those born of the Spirit.

Gal_4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


Notice, that during the first church conference, (a very important one) where this would be the time if ever there was a time to tell the Gentiles how important Sabbath Keeping and Tithing were, that not a word was breathed about them. And the conduct of the Apostles at this conference agrees with the NT and the Spirit of Christ.

For those that have received the spirit of adoption and have been made SONS, this is for you.

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Axehead

P.S. Jiggy and MJR, thank you for your posts. Much appreciated.

 

[James Forthwright]

I truly appreciate the kind words regarding my posts by both those that agree and those that disagree with my doctrinal opinions on the Sabbath, et al. We don't necessarily have to see eye-to-eye on every issue and many of us are at various stages of our Christian walks. I do hope to inspire folks to, at least, begin to question what they've been taught and to individually study God's Word in depth to fully substantiate your personal viewpoints, rather than blindly reciting popular Church teachings or simply following majority opinion on such important scriptural topics. Thanks again to all!
--

For those that followed my Sandy Hook hoax thread, I would encourage you to visit the Current Events section and take a look at my latest Boston Marathon Bombing thread. Another ongoing forensic work in progress. . .