Why Do Christians Not Honor The Sabbath?

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mjrhealth

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If Christ was too stand with a child and an adult, and ask teh child to draw a ciircle. The child would simply take what ever the yhad and raw a circle. Now if Christ was to ask teh adult to draw a circle, He wo9uld first ask,

WIth what,
that what clour,
than how big,
than is tha radius or diameter,
once he got that info he would than porceed to get a compass, and draw thw circle,
whyen he was finsihed he would look to see if it was pefrct if not he would erase it and try again

all teh while the child is standing there wide eyed, proud of what they had done, looking up at Jesus without any fear just absoute delight, while there the circle he has drawn looks more like a square.

I nall His Love

a bit like my keyboard accuracy
 

Axehead

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James Forthwright said:
Hello brother Axehead. Always good to hear from you! Permit me to parse your post.


Yes, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is distinctly mentioned three times in the NT (Mat. 12:8, Mar. 2:28, Luk. 6:5) Now the question I would pose to you; Is Jesus to be Lord of a day that most of his "followers" don't observe? I believe that, as Christians, we should follow Christ's earthly example as closely as possible. Jesus and His disciples all obeyed the Sabbath and Christ gave no indication that any change in observance of that ancient sacred day was imminent after His resurrection.


Yes, the Holy Spirit can direct us as He pleases on the Sabbath but it is also up to us to be willing to obey His stated spiritual directives in the Word of God. The Holy Spirit directs me to honor and sanctify the seventh day as the Sabbath just as Jesus and His disciples, many Christians throughout the two thousand years since Christ's resurrection as well as thousands of years of God-fearing believers in the Old Testament.

And I also steadfastly disagree that "(no one really knows anymore)". It's only been just under two thousand years since Christ's ascension. I'm sure Jesus would have corrected the fault-finding Pharisees when they oft-criticized Him and His disciples of transgressing the Sabbath IF they had been observing the wrong day as the Sabbath. Orthodox Jews since the first century also have not ceased to specifically set apart sundown Friday to sundown Saturday as the Sabbath. Contrary to popular belief, we know EXACTLY what day the Sabbath falls on!


I'll not argue that there may, indeed, be legitimate responsibilities in some particular vocations or certain exceptional instances that MIGHT conflict with precisely abiding by the Sabbath statutes (Luke 13:15) (and there's also God's infinite mercy in forgiving our transgressions to consider). However, for the vast majority of Christians the weekends (which encompasses the Sabbath time period) are free time. I fail to comprehend what is so burdensome to so many modern Christians about purposely setting aside the scripturally defined 24 hr. period and dedicating this particular sacred time to honor the Father and the Lord of the Sabbath (Jesus)?

It's been nearly forty years since I've read "Tortured for Christ". Richard Wurmbrand certainly suffered immense persecution under the vile oppressive chains of a Communist regime (and may God Almighty give us strength to forthrightly resist the current trend of sliding into such a godless tyrannical governments). However, again you are citing 'the exception to the rule of law' as some sort of justification for entirely ignoring 'the specifics' of the Law of God. Why not simply obey the fourth commandment willingly as you instinctively as regenerate beings obey the other nine?
Faith without works is DEAD (James 2:20, James 2:26). There is absolutely nothing sinful or ostentatious about outwardly manifesting our obedience to one of God's commands. It was designed as an outward sign of our covenant relationship with YHWH (Exo. 31:12-13). Sabbath observance is/should only be done out of a loving pure heart desiring to especially please our Heavenly Father on the Sabbath day (as well as every other day of the week). I have also found the Sabbath to be a profound blessing & a rewarding time of spiritual rejuvenation. It's also an excellent practical way of witnessing to non-believers and a means to stimulate discussion with lukewarm Christians.
I haven't always been a Christian Sabbath observer. It was precisely a desire to strengthen my relationship with the Lord that initially motivated me to study the Sabbath more in depth and then after careful prayer and consideration, decide to literally 'follow in Christ's footsteps' and begin to implement this blessed sacred day in my weekly timetable.
Hi James,

I would like to respond, but maybe something has happened in the latest "upgrade", as I cannot quote parts of your post above. I used to be able to go into your post and hit enter where it would be separated from the rest of your post when I hit enter and then I could reply. But, that does not happen anymore. So, it now has become quite laborious if not impossible to quote parts of your post. I will ask Hammer about this.

Let me just say that Jesus is the Lord of EVERY day and I know you will agree. No problem there, right? And with the Sabbath, no one observes it the way the Lord outlined for men to observe in the OT. Absolutely does not happen that way, today. All kinds of men make all kinds of "exceptions" and based on their personal exceptions they are judging others. I don't believe you are judging others but I have read "judgments" of others who don't "observe" the sabbath on this forum and other forums.

So, everyone has their special "rules" and "exceptions" and many of these are tied to specific denominations. You say, "I don't know why it is so hard for people....".

The point is that "in Christ" there is a higher law (the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus), and we have been set free to observe (abide in) Christ 7 days a week just like each day was a Sabbath because we have received the TRUE REST of internal peace with God and freedom from our own strife of pleasing God with our "acts of righteousness/performance".

The other very important thing is that once men make one rule, then they make another (sabbath, tithing) and then another (wednesday bible studies), and then another (get involved at least in 1 church program, faith without works is dead) and then another and another and another. And with each rule that they make, there is a list of exceptions (Sounds like Congress).
And what you have is separation of brethren by man-made denominatios because brethren have divided along lines of non-essentials.

Rom_14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

This is why it is so important to "hold the line" on people that are trying to put you under their particular flavor of bondage (while calling it freedom).

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

If we really believe that to know Christ is to be indwelt with His Holy Spirit then we will leave other Christians alone and not judge them on what they eat, what day they "observe" the Lord (when we are supposed to walking tightly with Him everyday), what they drive, what kind of house they live in, what they do with their money, how much they are giving, etc, etc, etc.

We must really believe that all the commandments are wrapped up in loving God with all our heart and our neighbor as ourselves and if we don't then we start codifying the Bible and bringing people under our particular, special rules that will "really bring you close to God".

Let me close with some poignant scriptures because I have found that this discussion will never end and many men are married to their rules and regulations and traditions.

Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.


1Ti_1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

2Ti_2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1Pe_1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

No one disagrees that when Paul is talking about ALL the LAW in Galatians 3:23, that it includes the 10 commandments. It would be quite silly to say "before faith came we were kept under the law, except for the 10 commandments...", when we all know that before faith came (Faith in Jesus Christ is what Paul is talking about), everyone was INDEED KEPT UNDER the 10 commandments, too. Before Jesus Christ it was the times of the Old Testament and the 10 commandments are very much a part of the "time" before Christ came.

But, now that the "faith which should afterwards be revealed" has come, this "LAW" which was our "SCHOOLMASTER" is no longer our schoolmaster. In fact, Paul's exact words are "we are no longer under a schoolmaster". Why? We are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. And so, we need to walk in love with each other and allow each other to answer to Jesus Christ and follow Jesus Christ and we should build up one another in the faith. We all need encouragement to fight the good fight.


Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Thanks for listening James. This is how I have received the word from the Holy Spirit and I certainly do not begrudge my brothers to observe any days that they desire to observe. Observing days or not observing days does not disqualify someone from having faith in Christ, power to overcome the enemy, having a good conscience or a pure heart. "Let every man be persuaded in their own man". Now that is a loving statement from a great Apostle, which comes directly from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and that is what I have adopted as my own attitude towards others.


Gal_5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

We now fulfill the 10 commandments "In Christ". Instead of murder, we are not even to hate, instead of actually committing adultery, we are not lust in our heart, instead of observing the "rest" of the Sabbath one day a week, we enjoy the "Sabbath Rest of God" daily as we are now joined to the Lord by His Spirit and abide in Him 7x24x365.


God bless you and everyone else on this thread.

Axehead
 
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KCKID

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Well, I guess this pretty well confirms what I've wondered about for ages. Paul BECAME God, apparently, and whatever he had to say in his epistles over-rode everything else in the Bible. Either that, or it's PEOPLE that have misinterpreted Paul. The latter seems more likely.

I Do agree with Axehead with regard to responding to posts on the forum. It's most frustrating when one cannot isolate a particlar portion of another's post and respond to it. Additionally, for me anyway, this is the first time in several days that I've even been able to access the forum. The page would appear but then immediately freeze. Then it would do cartwheels and continue to do so until I was able to escape from the page. Has there been some kind of a glich or a technical (or a poltergeist) problem?
 

williemac

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KCKID said:
Well, I guess this pretty well confirms what I've wondered about for ages. Paul BECAME God, apparently, and whatever he had to say in his epistles over-rode everything else in the Bible. Either that, or it's PEOPLE that have misinterpreted Paul. The latter seems more likely.

I Do agree with Axehead with regard to responding to posts on the forum. It's most frustrating when one cannot isolate a particlar portion of another's post and respond to it. Additionally, for me anyway, this is the first time in several days that I've even been able to access the forum. The page would appear but then immediately freeze. Then it would do cartwheels and continue to do so until I was able to escape from the page. Has there been some kind of a glich or a technical (or a poltergeist) problem?
Who has misinterpreted Paul? He was the Pharisee who was converted and given special revelation over a period of years. Therefore as a Pharisee, he had great insight into what we call the old testament (the law and the prophets). So God chose him to be the apostle who wrote most of what is now the new testament. Paul understood the differences between the old and new covenants and explained them in his letters. I think that it is they who would rather hold on to old covenant practices who resist and even reject Paul's input into scripture. He was a mere vessel just like the rest of us. What he wrote was inspired of God.

As for your problem with the website, it must have been local. I have never seen such a glich, myself. cheers
 
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Arnie Manitoba

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Anyone want to know why the church met on the first day of the week (Sunday) ???

They were celebrating the RESSURECTION DAY because of its great importance in Christianity

It is also believed the church continued to meet on Sundays partly to distinguish itself from the Jews who observed the Saturday Sabbath.
 
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KCKID said:
Well, I guess this pretty well confirms what I've wondered about for ages. Paul BECAME God, apparently, and whatever he had to say in his epistles over-rode everything else in the Bible. Either that, or it's PEOPLE that have misinterpreted Paul. The latter seems more likely.

Hello KCKID. Yes, the epistles of Paul have proven to be fine fodder for many false doctrines. I have written at length in other threads about Pauline doctrinal confusion. Such controversies were apparent in the First Century as the Apostle Peter stated in (2Pet. 3:16).

It is interesting how the opponents of Sabbath observance almost exclusively use Paul's epistles to validate their doctrines while totally ignoring the rest of the Holy Bible and Paul's other commands for 'women to be silent' and wear head coverings in the church, Paul's vacillations on circumcision, women saved by bearing children 1Tim. 2:15, or ignoring biblical food cleanliness laws and a host of other questionable doctrines that have brought consternation and confusion to the Church in the end times.


I Do agree with Axehead with regard to responding to posts on the forum. It's most frustrating when one cannot isolate a particular portion of another's post and respond to it. Additionally, for me anyway, this is the first time in several days that I've even been able to access the forum. The page would appear but then immediately freeze. Then it would do cartwheels and continue to do so until I was able to escape from the page. Has there been some kind of a glitch or a technical (or a poltergeist) problem?

Hopefully, the forum administrators are aware of the problem and are busy correcting any difficulties. In the meantime, I'm using different colors and fonts in order to help separate each speaker.



Anyone want to know why the church met on the first day of the week (Sunday) ???

They were celebrating the RESSURECTION DAY because of its great importance in Christianity

It is also believed the church continued to meet on Sundays partly to distinguish itself from the Jews who observed the Saturday Sabbath.

Yes Arnie, it's common knowledge that Sunday is the day of Jesus' resurrection (note the proper spelling of the word). And as the early Christians were often believed by outsiders to be 'just another sect of the Jews'. That false perception certainly played a significant part in the (misguided IMO) decision to change the weekly holy day from Saturday to Sunday. There were also many early Christians groups that OBSERVED BOTH DAYS. They kept the traditional Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday and also met the following day for weekly church meetings and communion services on Sundays. That IMO is a far more scriptural solution.
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KCKID

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sniper762 said:
honoring the sabboth means "1 day of 7", not any specific day
Incorrect. When the 7th-day is specified by God as the Sabbath then THAT day specifically is the Sabbath. The Jews still keep the Sabbath so do we say that they got it wrong?

Note: Again, all I'm attempting to do here is to highlight the fact that Christians cherry-pick which scriptures they choose to preach.
 

Axehead

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KCKID said:
Incorrect. When the 7th-day is specified by God as the Sabbath then THAT day specifically is the Sabbath. The Jews still keep the Sabbath so do we say that they got it wrong?

Note: Again, all I'm attempting to do here is to highlight the fact that Christians cherry-pick which scriptures they choose to preach.
"Keeping the Sabbath" according to the precepts that God laid down in the OT is not kept by the Jews or anyone.

I posted this before: Don't know if it was in this thread, may have been in another Sabbath thread. I will post it for the benefit of new people.

There is definitely a move away from Christ back to Judaism, today. Back to “Sabbath Keeping”. It is happening all around us. We all know people that say they should keep the Sabbath Holy. One of the big arguments they have is that the Roman Catholic Church instituted “Sunday Keeping” along with Constantine in the 4th century and that the Roman Catholic church attempted to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. So, we are told that when we keep Sunday instead of Saturday, we are not keeping the Sabbath.

The reality is this, Bible Believers don’t keep Sunday and they do not believe that Sunday is the Sabbath. So, we are not worried about someone changing the day from Saturday to Sunday because we have a different Sabbath and the Sabbath is the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of our rest and we keep no other day holy. Bible believers don’t think Sunday is the Sabbath or is the holy day. We don’t hold any day above another. All days are equally exalted in which we walk in God’s presence and in His Spirit and worship Him.

According to Galatians 5, if you disagree with the previous statement then you have fallen from grace. There is no end to how many, many groups from Seventh Day Adventists to British Israelism to the Hebrew Roots Movements, twist the scripture and attempt to modify this thing to make it fit. Now, I say this with grace because my hope is that I can steer you away from this.

Let’s first start with Genesis 2:2-3.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Well, you say that the Sabbath is not Mosaic and it is not under the system of laws that God gave to the Jews, but it is something that God founded in the very beginning. Does your Bible say that God founded the Sabbath for Himself here, or for man? Does your Bible say that man rested or that God rested?

There is no record of God giving Adam a commandment to rest on the seventh day. All we are told is that God rested. There is no record or statement at all that God revealed this to Adam at that time.

In Exodus 31:14, we find this:

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall be called a bad Christian.

Is that what it said??? No, that is not what it said.

What does it say?

Ye shall be put to death!

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Who does the Bible say that God is talking to? The Children of Israel? That is correct.

Is this a covenant forever with the Jews or the Gentiles?

Yes, with the Jews and there is no passing away of this covenant. This is perpetual. The coming of Christ did not negate the keeping of the Sabbath for the nation of Israel.

Does the Bible say that it is a sign between God and the nation of Israel, forever? Yes.

In other words there is not going to be a future dispensation that nullifies Sabbath Keeping for the nation of Israel.

That means today in Israel and today in New York, the Jews should be keeping the Sabbath holy. It is their obligation to do so. And if they do work sometime after sundown on Friday night, then the other Jews according to God should pick up bricks and come down and bash their brains out. That is the Word of God! If they do not do that, then they are in violation of the Word of God. That is a commandment to the nation of Israel that has not passed away, has not changed.

Some people would like to make the penalty pass away but keep the law. But think hard about this. Do you have a law if you have no penalty? No! You cannot have a law without a penalty. The very nature of law is that it comes with a penalty.

I hear people dividing the law in what is referred to as the “moral commandments” and the “ceremonial commandments”. And they tell us that the ceremonial part has passed away but the moral part is not and they try to make Sabbath Keeping part of the “moral” part which has remained but the penalty part of it we are no longer under. Christ is supposed to have lifted that.

So they say that when Christ died, we are no longer punished for keeping the Sabbath but we are suppose to keep it, regardless. What?

I submit unto you that when God gave this law and it was perpetual, the penalty was part of it and the penalty cannot pass away unless the law passes away. And for the nation of Israel, the law of Sabbath keeping cannot pass away.

Looking at Exodus 31:14 again, there are those that try to tell us that the Sabbath was kept prior to this. They say that when God says to “Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy”, that what it means is that, they have been keeping it and to remember what I told you. Keep remembering what your duty is, to keep the Sabbath and keep on doing what you know you should be doing.

That is a bit stretching the text there in Exodus 20:8.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

If you take the whole book of Genesis, the Bible talks about Abraham being a righteous man and it describes in detail, going to places and worshipping. It describes in detail, time and again, his offering of sacrifices and his falling down and praying and it talked of his righteousness, but it never mentioned him keeping the Sabbath. That is very strange. The Bible mentions his tithing, but it never mentions his Sabbath keeping. Then we have Isaac, who was also a righteous man and no mention of the Sabbath. Then we have Jacob and all his trials that he goes through with God and God teaching him and yet no mention of the Sabbath or Sabbath keeping. Then we have the 12 sons of Jacob and we have their devotion to God and Joseph going down to Egypt, and the Bible makes a big point of Joseph’s faithfulness to God. Down in Egypt, he worships God, he prays and they try to find some fault in him and yet, no mention of him ever keeping the Sabbath.

And then we come to Moses and we see Moses fleeing Egypt and then coming back but yet again no mention of Moses keeping the Sabbath. You find Moses dealing with the Jews for over a year and plagues coming but you find no mention of them ever keeping the Sabbath. And then when Moses tells Pharoah that he wants to take the people and go 3 days journey and worship, he never says that they want to go keep the Sabbath. Moses never said that they want to keep the Sabbath holy unto God. If they kept the Sabbath, this would be the place to say it!

There is a conspicuous absence of any Patriarch keeping the Sabbath until Moses receives it as a commandment from God. This is irrefutable from the KJV Bible and even other Bibles.

So, to tell us that God instituted Sabbath Keeping from the book of Genesis is absolutely false! He instituted nothing of the kind. The Bible tells us that He rested. That was His business! And when He got ready to reveal it, He revealed it to the nation of Israel and it was a sign between Him and the nation of Israel. Not between anyone else. A sign of a covenant. A covenant that he made with the nation of Israel. He never made that covenant with the nations of Gentiles. And the Gentiles have not entered into that covenant. The covenant that the Gentiles have entered into is the covenant that God made with Abraham to bless the world through his seed. Abraham was a Gentile not a Jew, not an Israelite and he did not keep the Sabbath.

When God made a covenant with the nation of Israel, He made it with the Jews, with the Israelites, not with Abraham and the Bible never speaks of us, the Church, as being the seed of Jacob (Israel) or the seed of Isaac. It speaks of us being the seed of Abraham by faith and that has nothing to do with the nation of Israel. We are the seed of a Gentile that did not keep the Sabbath, not the seed of an Israelite or a Jew who was commanded to keep the Sabbath. This is powerful!! This is extremely significant.

Now what is the first mention of Sabbath keeping in Exodus 20:8? Let’s look at it.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Now God commands this to the Jews and says not their menservants, thy maidservants and not their cattle, in other words, on the Sabbath, they could not hitch up their buggy and go to worship. The cows and horses couldn’t work. On the Sabbath they could not kindle a fire or carry any kind of load.

In Nehemiah 9:13 we have an interesting statement about the Sabbath.

Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Now verse 14 is the key: Look at this very closely.

Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

What did Moses do?

When he came down on mount Sinai, he made known unto them the Holy Sabbath. Meaning they did not know about it before Moses knew about it.

So the Word of God tells us that this is when God made known unto the Children of Israel, the Jews, His Holy Sabbath. No one from Adam knew about the Sabbath or were ever commanded to observe it. How could they observe what they never knew about? And that is why we never see a record of Sabbath keeping before Moses.

God did not make known to them just one Sabbath. He made known to them many Sabbaths. And yet, most of the people today just keep one Sabbath, one weekly Sabbath.

One of the Sabbaths involved keeping 7 days of unleavened bread and another Sabbath that involved the 7th year and there was a Sabbath that involved the 7th month. And there were certain ways that the Sabbaths were to be kept in fastings and what they could eat and could not eat and the blowing of trumpets. And if you are going to keep a Sabbath you have to keep all of the Sabbaths. You can’t go and cut them in half and say, “Ok, God instituted this but I am going to observe part of it and I’m going to do it the way our church does it.” You are going to have to do it the way God commanded.

And then in Ezekiel 20:12, He says:
Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctifieth them.

Did the Word just say Sabbaths? Plural, right? So there are multiple Sabbath keepings.

How was the Sabbath observed? Exodus 16: 5-23 tells us that there was no cooking of food or preparation of food. You can’t use the microwave, you cannot boil a roast. You cannot cook your food, between sundown Friday (if that is the Sabbath) and sundown Saturday (if that is the Sabbath). I am not convinced that is the Sabbath. But if it is, if that is when the 7th day is, I mean it could be Tuesday or it could be Thursday. I have no proof that what we call Saturday, today is the Sabbath.

And then Exodus 16:29, “let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

In other words they did not go and have a big church meeting on the Sabbath. They did not travel. They were to stay home and rest. Sabbath was about resting. They were commanded to stay home. No one is to go to meetings on that day. I wonder how that would go over. Probably not too well.

Exodus 20:10 – No one is to work. Not the son or daughter or the cattle. Nothing!

Exodus 23:12 – The ox and the ass are to rest also.

Exodus 35:3 – They are to kindle no fire. If you get’s cold you just stay cold.

Numbers 15:32 – Gather no firewood. They could not pick up a stick of firewood on the
Sabbath.

They just had to lay down and relax on the Sabbath. They could not lift a finger to go somewhere or to build a fire or to do anything.

Isaiah 58:13 – Says they are not to do their own ways, or do their own pleasures or speak their own words.

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

In other words, you can’t sit around and talk about the good times. You cannot talk about fishing or hunting or sports or organic gardening or making bread. You can’t talk about your new building project or what the kids have been doing that week and how funny it was. You couldn’t get together with the family and friends and laugh and have a good time on the Sabbath.

You couldn’t “speak your own words”. The Sabbath was the time to speak only the words of God. So picture this, everyone is staying at home, no one is going in or out, no one is carrying a load, no one cooking anything. Everyone in a state of total relaxation, just praying, singing and speaking the words of God for the 24 hours. That is the way they kept the Sabbath.

And if they violated this in anyway, the penalty was death.

We have an example of this in Exodus 31:14.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

In Exodus 35:2, they are told not to kindle the fire.

In Numbers 15:32-36, the children of Israel found a man that was gathering sticks on the Sabbath day, and they brought him unto Moses and Aaron and the congregation. God had just given them this law and they found a father who was out picking up sticks so he could bring them back to build up the fire to cook a little manna to eat.

Let’s see what happened.

Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
They waited until after the Sabbath because they could not lift stones on the Sabbath. So they put him in jail (in a ward) until the Sabbath was over. All the congregation had to bash their neighbor in the head with stones as the wives and kids stood by and watched him die. Why? He violated the Sabbath.

God is real serious about Sabbath keeping and how dare anyone take away the penalty that God gave, and say we keep it because it is a blessing to us. Ha! If you were to ask the Jews they wouldn’t have said it was a blessing to them. They would say it is something our God requires of us under penalty of death. That is why they observed the Sabbath.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Axehead said:
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
A couple of comments...

The penalty for breaking the sabbath was death. That was just a shadow of the true sabbath, Christ. The penalty for not resting in the finished work of Christ, and subsequently doing the works of the flesh, is eternal death.

I disagree that the sabbath was an eternal (perpetual) covenant. Once the new has arrived, there is no need or reason for the old. The Hebrew word translated eternal really just means age. The Hebrew expression in Exodus 31:17 is 'to (an) age' or 'into (an) age'. IMO, that age ended at the cross.
 

Axehead

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
A couple of comments...

The penalty for breaking the sabbath was death. That was just a shadow of the true sabbath, Christ. The penalty for not resting in the finished work of Christ, and subsequently doing the works of the flesh, is eternal death.

I disagree that the sabbath was an eternal (perpetual) covenant. Once the new has arrived, there is no need or reason for the old. The Hebrew word translated eternal really just means age. The Hebrew expression in Exodus 31:17 is 'to (an) age' or 'into (an) age'. IMO, that age ended at the cross.
Hey there, CRFD - thanks for reading my post. I appreciate your comments and the opportunity to clarify. From a Jewish person's standpoint (does not believe Christ is the Messiah), the sabbath is still an eternal covenant. To them, "the new" has not arrived and they are really not expecting anything "new" that would do away with their laws, they are just looking for their Messiah to exact vengeance upon their "enemies".

There is no "cross" for them and thus no "age" that has ended. Therefore, to them, the OT is still in full effect.

Axehead
 

jiggyfly

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Axehead said:
Hey there, CRFD - thanks for reading my post. I appreciate your comments and the opportunity to clarify. From a Jewish person's standpoint (does not believe Christ is the Messiah), the sabbath is still an eternal covenant. To them, "the new" has not arrived and they are really not expecting anything "new" that would do away with their laws, they are just looking for their Messiah to exact vengeance upon their "enemies".

There is no "cross" for them and thus no "age" that has ended. Therefore, to them, the OT is still in full effect.

Axehead
I agree with both, I agree with you CRFD that the old covenant with Israel is not eternal but I also agree with Axe, that Israel doesn't recognize a new and better covenant.
While I agree religious Jews may try to keep some or all the parts of the old covenant it doesn't mean that God still requires it and honors it. We know that all that pleases God now is faith in the works of the cross of Jesus, His Son. God's covenant through Christ is to all creation, the world or universe because it pleases Him.

KJV incorrectly translated the Hebrew word olam as forever, eternal or everlasting, but a much more accurate translation would be an age or even better a hidden beginning or end, in other words, when something is olam, it is beyond our scope of vision or horizon.

Olam is a noun derived from the verb alam which means "to hide". But Jerome corrupted the meaning of olam so it would work within his paradigm. Many since have shared this same belief.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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jiggyfly said:
KJV incorrectly translated the Hebrew word olam as forever, eternal or everlasting, but a much more accurate translation would be an age or even better a hidden beginning or end, in other words, when something is olam, it is beyond our scope of vision or horizon.

Olam is a noun derived from the verb alam which means "to hide". But Jerome corrupted the meaning of olam so it would work within his paradigm. Many since have shared this same belief.
That's right. I was reading the Hebrew olam and my mind was thinking the Greek word for age. 'Vanishing point' is the correct translation. not age..
 

KCKID

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Axehead said:
"Keeping the Sabbath" according to the precepts that God laid down in the OT is not kept by the Jews or anyone.

I posted this before: Don't know if it was in this thread, may have been in another Sabbath thread. I will post it for the benefit of new people.

There is definitely a move away from Christ back to Judaism, today. Back to “Sabbath Keeping”. It is happening all around us. We all know people that say they should keep the Sabbath Holy. One of the big arguments they have is that the Roman Catholic Church instituted “Sunday Keeping” along with Constantine in the 4th century and that the Roman Catholic church attempted to change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. So, we are told that when we keep Sunday instead of Saturday, we are not keeping the Sabbath.

The reality is this, Bible Believers don’t keep Sunday and they do not believe that Sunday is the Sabbath. So, we are not worried about someone changing the day from Saturday to Sunday because we have a different Sabbath and the Sabbath is the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of our rest and we keep no other day holy. Bible believers don’t think Sunday is the Sabbath or is the holy day. We don’t hold any day above another. All days are equally exalted in which we walk in God’s presence and in His Spirit and worship Him.

According to Galatians 5, if you disagree with the previous statement then you have fallen from grace. There is no end to how many, many groups from Seventh Day Adventists to British Israelism to the Hebrew Roots Movements, twist the scripture and attempt to modify this thing to make it fit. Now, I say this with grace because my hope is that I can steer you away from this.

Let’s first start with Genesis 2:2-3.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Well, you say that the Sabbath is not Mosaic and it is not under the system of laws that God gave to the Jews, but it is something that God founded in the very beginning. Does your Bible say that God founded the Sabbath for Himself here, or for man? Does your Bible say that man rested or that God rested?

There is no record of God giving Adam a commandment to rest on the seventh day. All we are told is that God rested. There is no record or statement at all that God revealed this to Adam at that time.

In Exodus 31:14, we find this:

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall be called a bad Christian.

Is that what it said??? No, that is not what it said.

What does it say?

Ye shall be put to death!

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Who does the Bible say that God is talking to? The Children of Israel? That is correct.

Is this a covenant forever with the Jews or the Gentiles?

Yes, with the Jews and there is no passing away of this covenant. This is perpetual. The coming of Christ did not negate the keeping of the Sabbath for the nation of Israel.

Does the Bible say that it is a sign between God and the nation of Israel, forever? Yes.

In other words there is not going to be a future dispensation that nullifies Sabbath Keeping for the nation of Israel.

That means today in Israel and today in New York, the Jews should be keeping the Sabbath holy. It is their obligation to do so. And if they do work sometime after sundown on Friday night, then the other Jews according to God should pick up bricks and come down and bash their brains out. That is the Word of God! If they do not do that, then they are in violation of the Word of God. That is a commandment to the nation of Israel that has not passed away, has not changed.

Some people would like to make the penalty pass away but keep the law. But think hard about this. Do you have a law if you have no penalty? No! You cannot have a law without a penalty. The very nature of law is that it comes with a penalty.

I hear people dividing the law in what is referred to as the “moral commandments” and the “ceremonial commandments”. And they tell us that the ceremonial part has passed away but the moral part is not and they try to make Sabbath Keeping part of the “moral” part which has remained but the penalty part of it we are no longer under. Christ is supposed to have lifted that.

So they say that when Christ died, we are no longer punished for keeping the Sabbath but we are suppose to keep it, regardless. What?

I submit unto you that when God gave this law and it was perpetual, the penalty was part of it and the penalty cannot pass away unless the law passes away. And for the nation of Israel, the law of Sabbath keeping cannot pass away.

Looking at Exodus 31:14 again, there are those that try to tell us that the Sabbath was kept prior to this. They say that when God says to “Remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy”, that what it means is that, they have been keeping it and to remember what I told you. Keep remembering what your duty is, to keep the Sabbath and keep on doing what you know you should be doing.

That is a bit stretching the text there in Exodus 20:8.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

If you take the whole book of Genesis, the Bible talks about Abraham being a righteous man and it describes in detail, going to places and worshipping. It describes in detail, time and again, his offering of sacrifices and his falling down and praying and it talked of his righteousness, but it never mentioned him keeping the Sabbath. That is very strange. The Bible mentions his tithing, but it never mentions his Sabbath keeping. Then we have Isaac, who was also a righteous man and no mention of the Sabbath. Then we have Jacob and all his trials that he goes through with God and God teaching him and yet no mention of the Sabbath or Sabbath keeping. Then we have the 12 sons of Jacob and we have their devotion to God and Joseph going down to Egypt, and the Bible makes a big point of Joseph’s faithfulness to God. Down in Egypt, he worships God, he prays and they try to find some fault in him and yet, no mention of him ever keeping the Sabbath.

And then we come to Moses and we see Moses fleeing Egypt and then coming back but yet again no mention of Moses keeping the Sabbath. You find Moses dealing with the Jews for over a year and plagues coming but you find no mention of them ever keeping the Sabbath. And then when Moses tells Pharoah that he wants to take the people and go 3 days journey and worship, he never says that they want to go keep the Sabbath. Moses never said that they want to keep the Sabbath holy unto God. If they kept the Sabbath, this would be the place to say it!

There is a conspicuous absence of any Patriarch keeping the Sabbath until Moses receives it as a commandment from God. This is irrefutable from the KJV Bible and even other Bibles.

So, to tell us that God instituted Sabbath Keeping from the book of Genesis is absolutely false! He instituted nothing of the kind. The Bible tells us that He rested. That was His business! And when He got ready to reveal it, He revealed it to the nation of Israel and it was a sign between Him and the nation of Israel. Not between anyone else. A sign of a covenant. A covenant that he made with the nation of Israel. He never made that covenant with the nations of Gentiles. And the Gentiles have not entered into that covenant. The covenant that the Gentiles have entered into is the covenant that God made with Abraham to bless the world through his seed. Abraham was a Gentile not a Jew, not an Israelite and he did not keep the Sabbath.

When God made a covenant with the nation of Israel, He made it with the Jews, with the Israelites, not with Abraham and the Bible never speaks of us, the Church, as being the seed of Jacob (Israel) or the seed of Isaac. It speaks of us being the seed of Abraham by faith and that has nothing to do with the nation of Israel. We are the seed of a Gentile that did not keep the Sabbath, not the seed of an Israelite or a Jew who was commanded to keep the Sabbath. This is powerful!! This is extremely significant.

Now what is the first mention of Sabbath keeping in Exodus 20:8? Let’s look at it.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Now God commands this to the Jews and says not their menservants, thy maidservants and not their cattle, in other words, on the Sabbath, they could not hitch up their buggy and go to worship. The cows and horses couldn’t work. On the Sabbath they could not kindle a fire or carry any kind of load.

In Nehemiah 9:13 we have an interesting statement about the Sabbath.

Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:

Now verse 14 is the key: Look at this very closely.

Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

What did Moses do?

When he came down on mount Sinai, he made known unto them the Holy Sabbath. Meaning they did not know about it before Moses knew about it.

So the Word of God tells us that this is when God made known unto the Children of Israel, the Jews, His Holy Sabbath. No one from Adam knew about the Sabbath or were ever commanded to observe it. How could they observe what they never knew about? And that is why we never see a record of Sabbath keeping before Moses.

God did not make known to them just one Sabbath. He made known to them many Sabbaths. And yet, most of the people today just keep one Sabbath, one weekly Sabbath.

One of the Sabbaths involved keeping 7 days of unleavened bread and another Sabbath that involved the 7th year and there was a Sabbath that involved the 7th month. And there were certain ways that the Sabbaths were to be kept in fastings and what they could eat and could not eat and the blowing of trumpets. And if you are going to keep a Sabbath you have to keep all of the Sabbaths. You can’t go and cut them in half and say, “Ok, God instituted this but I am going to observe part of it and I’m going to do it the way our church does it.” You are going to have to do it the way God commanded.

And then in Ezekiel 20:12, He says:
Eze 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctifieth them.

Did the Word just say Sabbaths? Plural, right? So there are multiple Sabbath keepings.

How was the Sabbath observed? Exodus 16: 5-23 tells us that there was no cooking of food or preparation of food. You can’t use the microwave, you cannot boil a roast. You cannot cook your food, between sundown Friday (if that is the Sabbath) and sundown Saturday (if that is the Sabbath). I am not convinced that is the Sabbath. But if it is, if that is when the 7th day is, I mean it could be Tuesday or it could be Thursday. I have no proof that what we call Saturday, today is the Sabbath.

And then Exodus 16:29, “let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.”

In other words they did not go and have a big church meeting on the Sabbath. They did not travel. They were to stay home and rest. Sabbath was about resting. They were commanded to stay home. No one is to go to meetings on that day. I wonder how that would go over. Probably not too well.

Exodus 20:10 – No one is to work. Not the son or daughter or the cattle. Nothing!

Exodus 23:12 – The ox and the ass are to rest also.

Exodus 35:3 – They are to kindle no fire. If you get’s cold you just stay cold.

Numbers 15:32 – Gather no firewood. They could not pick up a stick of firewood on the
Sabbath.

They just had to lay down and relax on the Sabbath. They could not lift a finger to go somewhere or to build a fire or to do anything.

Isaiah 58:13 – Says they are not to do their own ways, or do their own pleasures or speak their own words.

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

In other words, you can’t sit around and talk about the good times. You cannot talk about fishing or hunting or sports or organic gardening or making bread. You can’t talk about your new building project or what the kids have been doing that week and how funny it was. You couldn’t get together with the family and friends and laugh and have a good time on the Sabbath.

You couldn’t “speak your own words”. The Sabbath was the time to speak only the words of God. So picture this, everyone is staying at home, no one is going in or out, no one is carrying a load, no one cooking anything. Everyone in a state of total relaxation, just praying, singing and speaking the words of God for the 24 hours. That is the way they kept the Sabbath.

And if they violated this in anyway, the penalty was death.

We have an example of this in Exodus 31:14.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

In Exodus 35:2, they are told not to kindle the fire.

In Numbers 15:32-36, the children of Israel found a man that was gathering sticks on the Sabbath day, and they brought him unto Moses and Aaron and the congregation. God had just given them this law and they found a father who was out picking up sticks so he could bring them back to build up the fire to cook a little manna to eat.

Let’s see what happened.

Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
They waited until after the Sabbath because they could not lift stones on the Sabbath. So they put him in jail (in a ward) until the Sabbath was over. All the congregation had to bash their neighbor in the head with stones as the wives and kids stood by and watched him die. Why? He violated the Sabbath.

God is real serious about Sabbath keeping and how dare anyone take away the penalty that God gave, and say we keep it because it is a blessing to us. Ha! If you were to ask the Jews they wouldn’t have said it was a blessing to them. They would say it is something our God requires of us under penalty of death. That is why they observed the Sabbath.
I commend you for having taken the time to present the above, Axehead. While I'm still not entirely convinced that the 7th-day Sabbath is no longer applicable for Gentiles, I pretty much agree with much of what you say. However, I can also understand the argument that might be made by sabbatarians with regard to the above ..."if ALL Christians were keeping the 7th-day Sabbath as commanded by God and the solemnity of the day that was blessed and sanctified at Creation had NOT been transferred to Sunday by 'whomever' (the RCC?) then such lengthy and detailed explanations as to WHY Christians break the 4th-commandment would not be necessary."
 

Axehead

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KCKID said:
I commend you for having taken the time to present the above, Axehead. While I'm still not entirely convinced that the 7th-day Sabbath is no longer applicable for Gentiles, I pretty much agree with much of what you say. However, I can also understand the argument that might be made by sabbatarians with regard to the above ..."if ALL Christians were keeping the 7th-day Sabbath as commanded by God and the solemnity of the day that was blessed and sanctified at Creation had NOT been transferred to Sunday by 'whomever' (the RCC?) then such lengthy and detailed explanations as to WHY Christians break the 4th-commandment would not be necessary."
It's long and detailed because I cover a lot of topics within a larger topic.

The NT describes the "true" rest of God and is completely silent about Gentiles keeping or breaking the 4th commandment.
 

KCKID

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Axehead said:
It's long and detailed because I cover a lot of topics within a larger topic.

The NT describes the "true" rest of God and is completely silent about Gentiles keeping or breaking the 4th commandment.
I wasn't questioning the length and the detail of your post ...on the contrary, it was necessary as you say. All I meant is that if ALL Christians were 'keeping' the 7th-day Sabbath as per the 4th-command then NO explanation would be necessary as to why 'man' changed the solemnity of that day to Sunday. That said, if the NT describes the "true" rest of God and is completely silent about Gentiles keeping or breaking the 4th commandment ...then why keep Sunday as such a day? Sunday HAS become a 'holy' day to Christians. If the average Christian was asked, "Which day is the Sabbath?" they would almost certainly respond with "Sunday." So, the majority of Christians don't even know about your detailed explanation above. THEY think that they ARE keeping the 4th-command because they believe that Sunday is 'the Sabbath'. Furthermore, as long as Sunday HAS become the Christian 'sabbath' then why not keep the 7th-day AS PER the 4th-command? If Christians MUST keep a 'holy day' then why not keep the RIGHT one? I don't see the logic at all in regard to 'man' simply replacing one day with another for NO (divine) reason.
 

Axehead

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Well KC, there are many Christians and some meet on Thursday, some Friday, and Saturday or Sunday or maybe even Tuesday.

Many house churches meet when it is convenient for the majority.

The solemnity is not in keeping a specific day, but in keeping right relationship with man and God.

That is what is important.

Think that'll do it? Or do you have any other questions?
 

KCKID

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Axehead: Well KC, there are many Christians and some meet on Thursday, some Friday, and Saturday or Sunday or maybe even Tuesday.

Sure they do; however, this has got nothing to do with either the 7th-day Sabbath as initiated by God or the bogus "sabbath" as initiated by man (the RCC).

Axehead: Many house churches meet when it is convenient for the majority.

Good for them; however, this has got nothing to do with either the 7th-day Sabbath as initiated by God or the bogus "sabbath" initiated by man (the RCC).

Axehead: The solemnity is not in keeping a specific day, but in keeping right relationship with man and God.

But, that's only your opinion. While that might be alright with me it's not scriptural. This is a man-made belief that somehow implies that if one honors the 7th-day Sabbath this somehow negates their ability in keeping right relationships between man and God. It's nonsense. We really CAN do both!

Axehead: That is what is important.

I'm sure that God thought that the 7th-day Sabbath was important when He blessed and sanctified it at Creation. What you are doing here is putting forward man-made rules - or, more like, we can choose whatever day we like - and somehow claiming them to be scriptural.

Axehead: Think that'll do it?

Feeling a tad smug, Axehead? But, actually no ...that won't do it.

Axehead: Or do you have any other questions?

Oh yes, undoubtedly a touch of smugness. My initial question was ...Why Do Christians Not Honor The Sabbath? Despite the bold attempts to abrogate the Sabbath command (the 4th of the Big Ten) that have been most impressive ...this question has not been answered. The majority of Christians would have no clue that Sunday is NOT the Sabbath and so any impressive dialog such as what you've presented would be entirely wasted on them. To the average Christian, the below is the 4th commandment of the TEN that they believe to be for all time ...not NINE, mind, but TEN:

Remember the Sabbath day (Sunday), and keep it holy. For six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day (Sunday) is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work-you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day (Sunday); therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day (Sunday) and consecrated it.

Tell me that I'm wrong, Axehead, in regard to what the average Christian believes.
 
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