Why do some people not like the idea of OSAS?

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Big Boy Johnson

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So I cannot speak for anyone else. Perhaps YOU can lose your salvation (what do I know about such things). However, I can state as FACT that I CANNOT lose my salvation ... I know because I tried. God would not allow it.

IF you would have died during your rebellion against the Lord... you would have gone to hell.

The Lord was gracious and pursued you because you were still young in the faith and your rebellion was in ignorance. His pursuit of you was to PREVENT you from going to hell by convincing you to come back to the Lord. You were smart enough to say yes... not all people say yes and come back.

Make no mistake... when you were in rebellion against the Lord and were not abiding in Him... you were on your way to hell during that time.

Your experience is similar to mine, except for I did not accuse the Lord of not holding up His end of the deal... I blamed myself for continually falling in the sin when I was young in the faith and since Jesus said He would rather we be either hot or cold (Revelation 3:15-16), I simply quit going to church as to not be a hypocrite and spent a while back doing dope, getting drunk, and pleasuring hot young women.

Just like you, if I had died during this time I would have gone straight to hell... but in my situation I kept thinking about the Lord and how what I was doing was sinful and wrong and I needed to repent and get right with the Lord. It's called bacsliding and it's a biblical thing (Israel backslid and got destroyed!)

Notice in Jesus's teaching about the prodigal son... the Father said his son was dead and when the son returned he was alive again. Yes, the Father still loved the son while he was dead and gone, but none the less he considered him to be dead because the son CHOSE to turn and walk away

Yes many have storied like this and many repent and return to God but some let this kind of thing harden their heart so mush that when God says no to them they refuse him and carry on. Yes God is always working with us to strengthen us but some get so hardened that God lets them to their way

Exactly!

I've known people that were born again, quit living in sin, loving the Lord... but the enemy tricks them in to blaming God of wrong doing or they hold a grudge against someone refusing to believe and they refuse to repent of their sins and they keep walking in darkness... and their heart gets hardened and they don't want the Lord anymore.

It's false doctrine to say this can never happen to someone who has been legitimately born again... it can and does happen! Many hear the OSAS message think they don't have to repent and they can just continue living in sin and they'll be saved anyway which is why OSAS doctrine is so hideous and is one of satan's most effective tool for deception!

God WILL chasten us as needed, and His chastening WILL BE effective.

So, if someone turns away from the Lord... you believe His is going to override the free will He decided to give them and... FORCE them to come back to Him???

If God can do that, then it's obvious He would FORCE the entire world to get saved... and curiously He has not done that.

Each person must decide whether they accept His correction and come back to Him or not...
 
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atpollard

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IF you would have died during your rebellion against the Lord... you would have gone to hell.
Respectfully, you think too highly of yourself.

  • Romans 9:15-16 [NASB] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy.

It is GOD that makes that decision, and YOU are not GOD.
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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It is GOD that makes that decision, and YOU are not GOD.

Never said I was God or it was ME making that judgement.... God's Word teaches that once save always saved is false doctrine... but those that are ignorant of God's Word or that mock God are blind to this time Truth.
Here's one that most definitely DOES Speak Against the Eternal Security of the believer

Galatians 6:7-8 (see Gen 8:22)
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
God gave man free will... if man chooses to turn and walk away from the Lord, God will let them do so.


Romans 1:28
they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do what ought not to be done


The gifts and callings of God are without repentance which means God cannot violate our free will and save us anyway IF we choose to go back to our sin which is living in darkness. In God there is NO darkness. (1 John 1:5)

This is a major biblical truth the OSAS crowd always explains away or denies is simply this... God is NOT mocked, what we sow is what we reap - if we sow to the flesh we shall of the flesh reap corruption. (Gal 6:7,8)

In Gal 6:8, the word corruption is...

G5356
fthora from G5351; decay, i.e. ruin -- corruption, destroy, perish.

G5351
strengthened from phthio (to pine or waste); properly, to shrivel or wither, i.e. to spoil or to ruin, by moral influences, to deprave): -- corrupt (self), defile, destroy.

If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

Would YOU happen to be one of the God mockers?
 

marks

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So, if someone turns away from the Lord... you believe His is going to override the free will He decided to give them and... FORCE them to come back to Him???

If God can do that, then it's obvious He would FORCE the entire world to get saved... and curiously He has not done that.

Each person must decide whether they accept His correction and come back to Him or not...
All I can tell you is it's up to you whether you will believe God's Word or not. It seems that you've formed conclusions about our rebirth that are in conflict with certain portions of Scripture, and instead of adjusting your view so it matchs ALL of Scripture, it seems you instead choose to deny the reality of those passages.

If you choose to walk away from God and never come back, it's perfectly clear to me that you never knew Him to begin with.

Much love!
 
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marks

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God's Word teaches that once save always saved is false doctrine...
If that were true, this would be false:

Colossians 3:1-4 KJV
1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4) When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Because in your doctrine, you have to mentally add to this passage ". . . if you don't lose it . . ."

And there are a lot like that.

I don't personally care to add to Scripture, preferring it as God gave it.

Much love!
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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If one claims we DO reap corruption when we sin, then they are admitting they do not believe OSAS / Eternal security doctrine (and sadly many of their friends will forsake them!).... and if one claims we DO NOT reap what we sow, then according to Gal 6:7, that would be mocking God!

Adam and Eve were given eternal life by the Lord when He created them... but when they sinned against God they became corrupt and died spiritually and became separated from God. So Gal 6:7,8 is quite the quandary, quite the state of uncertainty and perplexity for the adherents of OSAS doctrine.

So far, you are claiming that is we sow to the flesh (sin) then we do not reap corruption... and according to Gal 6:7, that would is mocking God!

You are saying we do not reap what we sow... and that's false doctrine.
But, you knew that already
 

Big Boy Johnson

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I don't personally care to add to Scripture, preferring it as God gave it.

But you are a cherry picker that only accepts a few happy verses and ignores the rest of what God says on this subject in His Word.

This is why OSAS is false doctrine because it is a conclusion made with just a handful of scriptures and not the whole counsel of God. But, you knew that already
 
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marks

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ut you are a cherry picker that only accepts a few happy verses and ignores the rest of what God says on this subject in His Word.
You know nothing about me but you feel free to broadcast your poor opinions of me. That is righteousness? No, it's not. So then are you sinless?

That answers itself.

Much love!
 
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Big Boy Johnson

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You know nothing about me

Ah, but we can all see what you are posting in this thread... and we can see that you only accept a few happy verses and then claim God's warnings are false like God lied when He gave His warnings.

I've talked to many many people that just cannot handle the whole Truth.... so they grab a few happy verses and quit growing in the Lord.... and then sadly try to teach others that they can ignore the rest of God's Word too causing them to stumble.

In the end we'll all give an account before the Lord concerning how much of what He said did we believe.

If you're happy with your handful of happy verses... than carry on.
 
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amigo de christo

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"If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation." - [Romans 10:9-10 CSB]

The minimum criteria for SALVATION.
  • Jesus is God
  • Jesus was raised from the dead.
  • mouth - confess - salvation
  • heart - believe - righteousness
No "playing" at Christianity ... IN OR OUT!
[This is no place for 'boys'.]

[EDIT: There is ONE PATH to God the Father ... through God the Son (Jesus Christ). All other roads lead to HELL. I trust that is clear enough about "other religions".]
joy: joy: joy: :Happy::Happy::Happy::Happy::Happy:joy:joy:joy:
NOW THAT WAS AND IS THE RIGHT ANSWER MY FRIEND . Now raise those hands UP and praise THE LORD .
 
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mailmandan

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Jesus didn't lie... He said those that don't abide in Him are cut off and thrown in to the fire.

John 15:1,2
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch IN ME me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Notices He said "every branch IN ME"??? This is claring speaking about those who got born again and were translated from darkness into the Kingdom of God's Dear Son (Colossians 1:13)... meaning those not baring fruit (which is sinful to not bare fruit) are removed from the Body of Christ.

John 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.


When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established.
Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

John 8:34
Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin
In regard to John 8:34, the present active participle, continuous habit or practice, not aorist active participle for single act.

Jesus was obviously not a OSAS guy.... otherwise He would have said what the OSAS peoples say which is "it's all good, go ahead and sin, it's no big deal cause it's all good up in the hood... I got you boo!"
Jesus is not a NOSAS guy.... otherwise He would not have said:

John 6:37 - All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
 

mailmandan

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The key word in verse 30 is the first word. But...
In general, against their law.

Acts 10:28 NIV
He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile.
But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.
In regard to Acts 10:34-35, "fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him" is 'descriptive' of a believer/Christian and is not a prerequisite to become saved. (Titus 3:5) Works-salvationists will typically confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but works of righteousness in association with salvation are the fruit of and not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ.
 

St. SteVen

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In regard to Acts 10:34-35, "fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him" is 'descriptive' of a believer/Christian and is not a prerequisite to become saved. (Titus 3:5) Works-salvationists will typically confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture. We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but works of righteousness in association with salvation are the fruit of and not the means of obtaining salvation. God accepts those who fear Him and work righteousness from a right principle, and to a right end, yet their fear of Him and working righteousness are not the origin of their acceptance; but are to be considered as descriptive of the persons, who are accepted by Him in Christ.
I agree.
Good works are the RESULT of a renewed relationship with God, not the CAUSE.
Or the "fruit" as you aptly described it. As in the fruit of the Spirit, which has the sense of ripe harvested fruit.
By the bushel full.

Visited an apple orchard this month. Met the harvester on the way to walk through the orchard.
He encouraged us to stuff our pockets full of apples. There were so many he had no idea how he would get rid of them all.
And the trees in his orchard were heavy with fruit yet to be picked.

/
 

mailmandan

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James 2:18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

We show our faith by our works. Show, not establish. Big difference.

19You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

20O foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is worthless?h
"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

If someone merely says-claims he has faith, but lacks resulting evidential works, then he demonstrates that he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST then UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

The opposite of dead is alive. In Ephesians 2:5, we read - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).... 8-9 by grace through faith, not works, 10 created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. Christ is the source of life in our faith. Faith must be alive first before it can produce works. Just as a tree must be alive first before it can produce fruit. Life flows through faith (root of salvation) and produces works (fruit of salvation) just as life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit.

21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

22You see that his faith was working with his actions, and his faith was perfected by what he did.
Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

23And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”i and he was called a friend of God.j
The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. *Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."