Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

[GISMYS_7]

Little men(worms on germs on worms on germs ) as compared to Almighty God need to learn their place in creation before judgment falls on them.

 

[ScottA]

That's no reconciliation Scott. It's an attempted justification for contradiction.

No...it was an explanation.

Here is another: From the beginning God has been completely upfront and honest about the fact that we are a mere image compared with His own reality--the reality. In other words, we are like sketches--some get framed and some go in the trash. Completely understandable and reasonable.

And God is so good, even the trash get to have their day in the sun too.

 

[quietthinker]

No...it was an explanation.

Here is another: From the beginning God has been completely upfront and honest about the fact that we are a mere image compared with His own reality--the reality. In other words, we are like sketches--some get framed and some go in the trash. Completely understandable and reasonable.

And God is so good, even the trash get to have their day in the sun too.

God doesn't make trash and if what God makes decides to trash itself, God is right there to redeem it

 

[n2thelight]

Who are the Elect ?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Who are the Elect ?

I am surprised you needed to ask that twice...

....all I hear is crickets....

Who indeed are the "elect"....the "chosen ones"? They are "elected" to a governmental position in the heavenly Kingdom as "kings and priests" who will operate under the oversight of their appointed Leader, Jesus Christ. These are chosen individually by God for that purpose. (Revelation 20:6)

Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. Since there are no sinners in heaven needing priests, and kings do not rule over one another...their subjects must be sinners here on earth for the 1,000 years it will take them to bring mankind back to sinless perfection so that God's first purpose can be restored.....and we can get on with the life that God wanted for us all along. (Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[n2thelight]

I am surprised you needed to ask that twice...

....all I hear is crickets....

Who indeed are the "elect"....the "chosen ones"? They are "elected" to a governmental position in the heavenly Kingdom as "kings and priests" who will operate under the oversight of their appointed Leader, Jesus Christ. These are chosen individually by God for that purpose. (Revelation 20:6)

Kings need subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. Since there are no sinners in heaven needing priests, and kings do not rule over one another...their subjects must be sinners here on earth for the 1,000 years it will take them to bring mankind back to sinless perfection so that God's first purpose can be restored.....and we can get on with the life that God wanted for us all along. (Revelation 21:2-4)

When were they chosen and why?

 

[Lambano]

Who are the Elect ?

We are God's people, the called-out ones. Our calling is from old:

6 “I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness,
I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. (Isaiah 42:6-7)

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:14-16)

 

[n2thelight]

We are God's people. Our mission is from old:

6 “I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness,
I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. (Isaiah 42:6-7)

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:14-16)

All of God's people are not of the Elect.

 

[Lambano]

All of God's people are not of the Elect.

Go on....

 

[farouk]

We are God's people. Our mission is from old:

6 “I am the Lord, I have called You in righteousness,
I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You,
And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the nations,
7 To open blind eyes,
To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
And those who dwell in darkness from the prison. (Isaiah 42:6-7)

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 5:14-16)

@Lambano Aptly quoted verses there....

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment. These “elect” have been “chosen” in Jesus Christ, and they WILL come to faith in the Lord. God has so “Enabled” their “will”, that they cannot “reject” His “Saving Grace”, and WILL be saved.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation, Paul say in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, “Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we PERSUADE men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences” (verse 11)? The word “persuade” means, “to move by argument, entreaty, or expostulation to a belief, position, or course of action. To plead with”. IF, the “men” here means only the “elect”, who WILL come to Saving Faith in Jesus Christ, then WHY do these need to be PLEADED with? Not only so, but Paul goes on to say, “Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were PLEADING (παρακᾰλέω, invite, appeal to, encourage, exhort) through us: we implore (δέομαι, long for, beg) you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God” (verse 20).

It is ABSURD that those who have been PREDESTINED before the foundation of the world, to be the ELECT of God, who WILL come to Jesus for salvation, because God has to DETERMINED it, should be PLEADED with, and APPEALED to, and EXHORTED, and BEGGED, to be “RECONCILED” with God.

In Luke 13:24, Jesus Himself says, “Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”. The Greek verb used here, “ἀγωνίζομαι”, for CONTENDING, FIGHTING, STRUGGLE. Or, as the Christian Standard Bible reads, “Make every effort”.

This language shows beyond any doubt, to those who don’t have a theological bent, that both Paul and Jesus Christ are speaking to the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE, and NOT only the ELECT! The ELECT have no FREE WILL of their own, and really have NO SAY in whether they are saved or not, as God has already DETERMINED this for them, even before the world was Created. So we are told by the “Reformed/Calvinists”.

But, the truth is, that the Infallible Word of God, the Holy Bible, is AGAINST the FALSE teaching known as ELECTION to salvation, which is supposed to be UNCONDITIONAL!

The concept of divine determinism is understood according to an author/novel analogy. God is like an author and reality is like a story he is writing.

The “Reformed/Calvinists” teach, that God has from eternity past, before the foundation of the world, “elected” some to eternal life, while damning the rest of the human race to eternal punishment.

This would be the same as if an author wrote in his novel that some of the characters were going to survive into the next book while other characters were not going to appear in the next book.

IF, this teaching is Biblical, then why do we read, for example, in the context of salvation . . .

Everything that takes place in reality is understood in terms of the narrative God is telling. For instance, he writes that Paul will exhort people to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. God also writes that some do and some don't.

because God has to DETERMINED it . . .

That's right. God is the divine author of all that exists. It is not absurd for an author to write a book.

 

[ScottA]

God doesn't make trash and if what God makes decides to trash itself, God is right there to redeem it

Yes, most of us feel that way, and it is a nice notion...however, He makes both the wheat and the tares:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7​

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, most of us feel that way, and it is a nice notion...however, He makes both the wheat and the tares:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7​

When I think of God I think of Jesus. If I thought of God as the Hebrews did, reflected in your quote, my understanding of God would be limited to a God who has not revealed himself in the flesh.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

When I think of God I think of Jesus. If I thought of God as the Hebrews did, reflected in your quote, my understanding of God would be limited to a God who has not revealed himself in the flesh.

The God of the Holy Bible is not only One Person. We have Three distinct Persons, Who are called Yahweh in the Old Testament. Though One God.

 

[quietthinker]

The God of the Holy Bible is not only One Person. We have Three distinct Persons, Who are called Yahweh in the Old Testament. Though One God.

Do we conclude they are at odds with each others characters/principles?

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

Do we conclude they are at odds with each others characters/principles?

No. Completely coequal

 

[quietthinker]

No. Completely coequal

If that is the case and Jesus is the final word on how God is then we must conclude that the understanding that the Hebrews had of God was in error.
You quoted 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
....this cannot possibly be true if we take 1 John 1:5 as being true, 'And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.'

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

If that is the case and Jesus is the final word on how God is then we must conclude that the understanding that the Hebrews had of God was in error.
You quoted 'I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
....this cannot possibly be true if we take 1 John 1:5 as being true, 'And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.'

The Jewish understanding of the God of the Bible is wrong, as they reject the Holy Trinity. Unitarianism is totally FALSE

 

[quietthinker]

The Jewish understanding of the God of the Bible is wrong, as they reject the Holy Trinity. Unitarianism is totally FALSE

My point is, Isaiah's understanding of how God is, is in error. To say that God creates evil is an indication that the incarnation (the Gospel) is not understood. This is understandable in Isaiah's case but for those claiming to be believers in Jesus, it makes no sense.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

My point is, Isaiah's understanding of how God is, is in error. To say that God creates evil is an indication that the incarnation (the Gospel) is not understood. This is understandable in Isaiah's case but for those claiming to be believers in Jesus, it makes no sense.

The Hebrew word does not mean evil but disaster and calamity