Why do you want Freedom of Religion?

[pmb]

Due terrible events in my life (i.e. being arrested as a result of my chronic pain twisting my mind until I said something dumb which caused them to arrest me). During part of this time I wasn't allowed to read the Bible, perhaps for a week as I recall and I was not allowed to go to services for the time I was in jail. This made me think alot about this so-called Freedom of Religin notion that we have in the US. I have many questions on this point:

1) Why do you want Freedom of Religion?
2) Exactly what does that mean to you?
3) If you're an American do you believe that you have the right to worship according to your beliefs? Why do you believe that?
4) How long do you believe that it's okay to have that stripped from you? What does it mean to have that right stripped from you?

These questions are quite far from being abstract. It's a very real life situation.

Thanks,

Pete

 

[Rex]

People make mistakes and the courts sometimes view threw the lenses of "professionals". People that carry a certificate that testifys their testimony is true and must be accepted by the court as the truth.

My question is, was there a doctor involved? Testimony or an evaluation by a doctor for the court?

You may not have even realized you were speaking to one at some point without an attorney.

 

[Axehead]

They can take away all of my "freedoms" but they can never take the Lord from my heart. So, to answer your question, man's freedoms or lack of them don't dictate whether I follow the Lord or not.

 

[IanLC]

The Church needs to gird up and get ready for the day the powers that be shall take the actual written word and try to close our worship buildings. When need to have worship in our hearts and truly be endowed with the power of the Holy Ghost and the word in our minds and on the tablet of our hearts. For times are coming and they are not too far away!

 

[Raeneske]

The Church needs to gird up and get ready for the day the powers that be shall take the actual written word and try to close our worship buildings. When need to have worship in our hearts and truly be endowed with the power of the Holy Ghost and the word in our minds and on the tablet of our hearts. For times are coming and they are not too far away!

Churches have government 501c3 tax exempt status, making them official government agencies. The government wont shut you down unless you're preaching against what they tell you you can preach. So, while the people are in the pews listening to their pastors, the government is telling your pastor what he can and cannot say, and shutting away the light you need to hear, and the news you need to hear.

 

[soupy]

No one stripped your right to worship according to your beliefs, we can worship Him everyday all the time.
No being allowed personal property is common for prisoners for the short time.
Depending on your situation it is also common to not allow you to attend church services. You said chronic pain twisted your mind, if you are considered a mental health or physical risk to officers or other inmates, it is reasonable to deny you general population privileges.
Jail is jail, you lose some rights, concentrate now on how you got there and how you won't go there again, don't get hung up on your rights and being a victim.

 

[mjrhealth]

There is no freedom in religion only in Christ.

In all His Love

 

[dragonfly]

The phrase 'freedom of religion' began as a reaction to Catholicism (I believe) at a time when there was a move towards simplicity in the expression of worship (away from confession to a priest (rather than directly to God), rituals in Latin (rather than addressing God in the vernacular), gowns, incense, compulsory attendance at a church (rather than informally gathered worshippers in a home),and tithes (failure to pay which might lead to a fine)).

It was also, implicitly, a move away from the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, back to Christ Himself and the written word of God free from carnal interpretation.

The gradual removal of laws against blasphemy and pagan practices, makes 'freedom of religion' mean something altogether different.

However, if laws protecting religious practices are administered fairly, then Christians should be as free as witches and Satanists; and it could easily be argued that Christians are altogether freer than any other 'believer', since they have been decreed 'free' by the Son of God Himself.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abides not in the house for ever: but the Son abides ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinces me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God hears God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


We are in a battle, spiritually, not for 'freedom of religion', nor civil or human rights, but for clarity to shine as lights in this dark world.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

 

[whitestone]

I am free in Christ to choose righteousness always. No "country" or "law" can ever affect that.

 

[Axehead]

There is no freedom outside of Christ. All other "freedoms" are just man-made and passing away. What man gives he can take away. But he can never take away your freedom in Christ, if, you are indeed "in Christ".

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Due terrible events in my life (i.e. being arrested as a result of my chronic pain twisting my mind until I said something dumb which caused them to arrest me). During part of this time I wasn't allowed to read the Bible, perhaps for a week as I recall and I was not allowed to go to services for the time I was in jail. This made me think alot about this so-called Freedom of Religin notion that we have in the US. I have many questions on this point:

This is a bit over the top. You cannot necessarily condemn not being able to have a Bible or attend religious services simply because you were arrested and spent some time in jail. When you go to jail, it is typical for one to sit in a cell until the jail and the courts have decided what should be done. The first week in there is an initiation process, and there is too much going on to tend to people's religious desires.

Freedom of religion does not guarantee that you will simply be handed a Bible or Quran at immediate request. There is a problem of basic practicalty there that you have to understand.

 

[Questor]

Due terrible events in my life (i.e. being arrested as a result of my chronic pain twisting my mind until I said something dumb which caused them to arrest me). During part of this time I wasn't allowed to read the Bible, perhaps for a week as I recall and I was not allowed to go to services for the time I was in jail. This made me think alot about this so-called Freedom of Religin notion that we have in the US. I have many questions on this point:

1) Why do you want Freedom of Religion?
2) Exactly what does that mean to you?
3) If you're an American do you believe that you have the right to worship according to your beliefs? Why do you believe that?
4) How long do you believe that it's okay to have that stripped from you? What does it mean to have that right stripped from you?

These questions are quite far from being abstract. It's a very real life situation.

Thanks,

Pete

Well, Pete...not a great situation, but I pray that you are out of prison, and able to seek YHVH formally or informally.


(1) Why do you want Freedom of Religion?


Since I was brought up in a country that allowed people to seek any knowledge, I do not need freedom of religion at the moment. I already have that mindset. No one can place a bit and halter over my mind, and belief/trust in Yeshua is a very personal matter.

I want to keep having freedom of religion because it allows me to speak freely to anyone about my beliefs, even if they do not wish to hear about it. In my case, since I am not an impolite person, I gently feel around the edges in a conversation, so as to not offend overmuch, but I do want the Light of YHVH shining off of me as a reflection of His glory. I would like to be a good witness for Him, and fear the scoffing and mockery that I have gotten in the past. No one likes it or gets used to it...you learn to use it to your advantage, if possible. I'm not good at it yet.

I also want to continue in freedom of religion because I am aware that the world will someday be all like the Middle East is, where if you do not agree with the people in charge of religion, you die. I expect to have trouble over being a Believer...I already do. Messianic Belief is not a comfortable thing to be around if you are not tolerant of other people's opinions, and since many Believer's are a bit fervant in their belief's, they often offend when they don't mean to. I do not want them to be told to be silent just because they offend, nor do I want them to be hurt if it is possible to avoid it without disclaiming Yeshua. I am already somewhat used to being scoffed at and mocked, and I've had a showdown with a very noisy athiest I couldn't avoid, since he was fixing my internet connection. I do expect things to be getting worse, because they have already been getting worse than just a few years ago.

I also want people to stop mocking and scoffing at my God, and my beliefs, simply becsuse I do not get offended, and kill people over my belief's being mocked. It's not that I don't want to get back at the people who so carelessly speak and act about my Beloved, it's that I just do not do it. Fortunately Yeshua doesn't judge me even when I do sin in this way, and snap back at people. People judge Believers who are human and sin as hypocrites because they think that Yeshua requires perfection in exchange for his Love and Redemption. He doesn't. He requires belief and trust in Him as our redeemer, because of His perfection.

If I do not have freedom of religion as a Believer in Yeshua haMassiach, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God, YHVH, then I cannot freely and easily tell others about my love for Yeshua, and all that He has done for me to earn that love, and others who do not know my Lord may never hear of Him, and without freedom of religion, it is very difficult to seek out all the answers to one's questions if you are only told one thing.

I also do not want to be free FROM religion, as other people's beliefs often give me something in common to talk about, even if it is not to a Believer in Yeshua. I like people. Having really studied everything to some extent, I can find common ground to talk from even with a white witch, or a Buddist, although I am more familiar with the occult than I am with eastern points of view.



(2) Exactly what does that mean to you?

Included above...sorry!



(3) If you're an American do you believe that you have the right to worship according to your beliefs? Why do you believe that?

Being an American familiar with the Constitution of the United States of America, I do believe I have the right to freedom of religion by the statutes in that document, but only YHVH can give a person a human right. The laws under the Constitution only enforce my God-given right to believe as I choose to believe, or choose not to believe.

People of course, keep doing all they can to remove my right to a law protecting freedom of speech, conscience, religion, etc., but freedom of speech cannot be stripped from me. They can, and will, however, take my life if they want to, and YHVH allows it, in order to keep me from speaking. I hope it will not happen, but I have been preparing my mind and heart for the very real possibility of such an occurance, and have been for the last several years.


(4) How long do you believe that it's okay to have that stripped from you? What does it mean to have that right stripped from you?


How long is too long? Within a reasonable amount of time...most jails would have a list of rules and rights or priviledges, at least in America I would hope so. So I would ask when I could get a Bible.

My foster Brother is a retired prison guard, and he is a Christian. I cannot imagine him not responding, at the least, as to when, or if, and maybe even why.

Having the right stripped from me will not take Yeshua from me, it takes freedom of speech from me, which since I am used to having it, it would be very difficult, and it would offend me. So I would grind my teeth as quietly as possible, and get away from the place that has no freedom of speech as quickly as humanly possible.

However, be aware that others have the right to tell you to stop bothering them, particularly in a rigidly rule kept place, like a prison, or the military. The more polite you are, the easier it always is, and using sirs, and ma'ams in speech offers appropriate respect for their position, if not for the person. In public, don't thump your Bible and get passionate...it scares people.

If I were in prison, and not given access to a Bible immediately, I would have enough common sense to ask politely for it. If I were refused, I would keep asking again until I received one, or they shot me. The squeaky wheel tends to get oiled, but it can get smashed as well, so I would be polite and respectful.

I might have to suffer being knocked over by someone, however, I would be still polite, but relentless in my asking, and ask regularly until I received a Bible, or was told I would never receive one. Same thing for church, although I would really just want to talk with another Believer about what I was to learn in these circumstances. Humility, probably, and patience, and loooooonnnggg suffering.

I hope that I would be in an American Jail, so that there would be laws to protect me, but since I try to stay out of trouble, I don't know what I would face.

However, I cannot be stripped of what I know without violence, and brainwashing, and I will not refuse to speak up about what I do believe if I am asked. Whether I can handle all that I am faced with can be known ahead...I need only lean on and trust in Yeshua. I will be made able.

I have already found that prayer and singing praises blocks out pain, and this too has been proven to be true by pet-scan in hospitals. I believe the medical people think it's like self-hypnosis, or meditation, but they also don't like it, so they know that it's not exactly natural. Meditating on Yeshua's name alone can do it, I am told. I tend to sing under my breath positive statements of trust or praise.

I imagine when I do get put in jail, it will be for saying something that was not liked, just as you did. I merely hope that what I say is what I intended to say, and not accidental, as it appears yours was, being under the influence of extreme pain, and so forth.

Also, although I do not have the memory for Bible Verses, I do speak and sing in tongues, and would be able to while the time away talking and singing to the Ruach haKodesh. I would hope to remember a few bits and pieces of the Word, though, and might find someone in jail with me with a better mind for memorising Scripture. And contemporary Christian music is fairly easy to remember, and quite good for getting through long silences.


Hope that answered your questions.


Q

 

[James Forthwright]

1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the
right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Having a proper historical understanding of why the Founding Fathers desired to exclude government from religious
matters is important. European countries had official State Religions. Catholicism dominated the Holy Roman
Empire countries and after the Reformation other countries chose various denominations of Protestant sects or
the faith of the Royal family dictated which faith prevailed. Members of the state religion were granted certain
privileges while minority faiths were at best denied benefits and at worst persecuted or tortured for their beliefs.

In crafting the Constitution the Founding Fathers observed the many innate inequities which prevailed in the
European nation states and so they purposely attempted to formulate a more equitable solution to having a
state sanctioned religion. As an earlier poster astutely mentioned, the 501c3 tax laws have effectively nullified
and violated the First Amendment by granting tax exempt status to only those churches that abstain from political
activity or those that would openly criticize the government from their pulpits.

Under the Internal Revenue Code, all section 501(c)(3) organizations are
absolutely prohibited from directly or indirectly participating in, or
intervening in, any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition
to) any candidate for elective public office. Contributions to political
campaign funds or public statements of position (verbal or written)
made on behalf of the organization in favor of or in opposition to any
candidate for public office clearly violate the prohibition against
political campaign activity. Violating this prohibition may result in
denial or revocation of tax-exempt status and the imposition of certain
excise taxes. --Wikipedia

This provision, in effect, stifles religious groups from addressing political free speech for fear of
losing their tax exempt status. The First Amendment was supposed to exclude Government from
intrusion in religion NOT the other way 'round. Priests and pastors should be given liberty to voice
dissent of the government when warranted.

Is Freedom of Religion a blessing or a curse?

IMO, at best it's a mixed bag. True, we don't arrest or execute someone for proclaiming contrary religious beliefs as they do in many Middle Eastern, Islamic or African countries. However, such freedoms of religious expression can come at a substantial cost. As we opened the immigration flood gates to millions and millions of believers in non-Christian faiths many of our core Christian morals and foundational values have been marginalized.

Are we being blessed (or cursed) by having Jews dominate our financial institutions, all our media outlets as well as so heavily influencing our foreign affairs? Is having every convenience store owned and staffed by Pakistanis in our best interest? Do Hindus really make the best cab drivers? Should Muslims be permitted to instill Sharia Law in Western countries? Should people accustomed to abysmal levels of personal hygiene and food standards in their native countries be handling and preparing our daily sustenance? Do Third World immigrants and their foreign faiths and customs contribute to our society or are they the reason why once eradicated pests and diseases such as bed bugs and tuberculosis, etc. are now on the rise?

Are the governing principles the Founding Fathers so expertly designed after analyzing the European model still applicable or workable in such a multi-cultural, multi-religious polyglot society?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

The phrase 'freedom of religion' began as a reaction to Catholicism (I believe) at a time when there was a move towards simplicity in the expression of worship (away from confession to a priest (rather than directly to God), rituals in Latin (rather than addressing God in the vernacular), gowns, incense, compulsory attendance at a church (rather than informally gathered worshippers in a home),and tithes (failure to pay which might lead to a fine)).

It was also, implicitly, a move away from the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, back to Christ Himself and the written word of God free from carnal interpretation.

The gradual removal of laws against blasphemy and pagan practices, makes 'freedom of religion' mean something altogether different.

However, if laws protecting religious practices are administered fairly, then Christians should be as free as witches and Satanists; and it could easily be argued that Christians are altogether freer than any other 'believer', since they have been decreed 'free' by the Son of God Himself.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abides not in the house for ever: but the Son abides ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinces me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God hears God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


We are in a battle, spiritually, not for 'freedom of religion', nor civil or human rights, but for clarity to shine as lights in this dark world.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

I like your post! SHALOM

 

[Selene]

The phrase 'freedom of religion' began as a reaction to Catholicism (I believe) at a time when there was a move towards simplicity in the expression of worship (away from confession to a priest (rather than directly to God), rituals in Latin (rather than addressing God in the vernacular), gowns, incense, compulsory attendance at a church (rather than informally gathered worshippers in a home),and tithes (failure to pay which might lead to a fine)).

It was also, implicitly, a move away from the Pope as the Vicar of Christ, back to Christ Himself and the written word of God free from carnal interpretation.

The gradual removal of laws against blasphemy and pagan practices, makes 'freedom of religion' mean something altogether different.

However, if laws protecting religious practices are administered fairly, then Christians should be as free as witches and Satanists; and it could easily be argued that Christians are altogether freer than any other 'believer', since they have been decreed 'free' by the Son of God Himself.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abides not in the house for ever: but the Son abides ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinces me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God hears God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


We are in a battle, spiritually, not for 'freedom of religion', nor civil or human rights, but for clarity to shine as lights in this dark world.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loves another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love works no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light. 13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Freedom of Religion was started by Christianity. The very first document that granted Freedom of Religion was the Roman Emperor Constantine when he passed the Edict of Milan. In the Edict of Milan, all peoples were allowed to worship whatever god they believed in. It also stopped the persecutions of Christians and allowed them to also worship freely.

 

[meshak]

Due terrible events in my life (i.e. being arrested as a result of my chronic pain twisting my mind until I said something dumb which caused them to arrest me). During part of this time I wasn't allowed to read the Bible, perhaps for a week as I recall and I was not allowed to go to services for the time I was in jail. This made me think alot about this so-called Freedom of Religin notion that we have in the US. I have many questions on this point:

1) Why do you want Freedom of Religion?
2) Exactly what does that mean to you?
3) If you're an American do you believe that you have the right to worship according to your beliefs? Why do you believe that?
4) How long do you believe that it's okay to have that stripped from you? What does it mean to have that right stripped from you?

These questions are quite far from being abstract. It's a very real life situation.

Thanks,

Pete

No one can take away freedom of religion. It is between you and God, not anyone else. Your enemy can kill your body but not your soul.

 

[Angelina]

Pete, read the word of God. Memorize it and keep it in your heart. That way, if you ever end up in jail again, even as a believer. The Holy Spirit will remind you of the various verses of scripture as if you had a bible with you... ^_^

Bless ya!

 

[dragonfly]

Great advice, Angelina. I've been thinking it's never too late to memorise scripture, for the very reason you suggest. I can still remember two psalms we had to memorise in primary school, at the same time as we were learning to read and write. God has brought them both back many times.

Freedom of Religion was started by Christianity. The very first document that granted Freedom of Religion was the Roman Emperor Constantine when he passed the Edict of Milan. In the Edict of Milan, all peoples were allowed to worship whatever god they believed in. It also stopped the persecutions of Christians and allowed them to also worship freely.

Hi Selene,

I think you're missing something - namely, that God gave Adam one chance to obey Him, and he failed in respect of not eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; and from then on, 'freedom of religion' has existed on earth under God.

His commandments have not been lost since the very beginning, handed down the generations. For anyone (It happened to be Constantine.) to set themselves up as an authority on earth who has the power to grant 'freedom of religion', is a blatant usurpation of God's gracious authority to rule His own universe according to His own terms.

 

[aspen]

well, i agree that God allows freedom of religion to exist, however it is a relatively new concept when applied to governmental allowance of the freedom of religion.

l also think Adam had the freedom to disobey God as soon as he first became conscious.

 

[[email protected]]

Due terrible events in my life (i.e. being arrested as a result of my chronic pain twisting my mind until I said something dumb which caused them to arrest me). During part of this time I wasn't allowed to read the Bible, perhaps for a week as I recall and I was not allowed to go to services for the time I was in jail. This made me think alot about this so-called Freedom of Religin notion that we have in the US. I have many questions on this point:

1) Why do you want Freedom of Religion?
2) Exactly what does that mean to you?
3) If you're an American do you believe that you have the right to worship according to your beliefs? Why do you believe that?
4) How long do you believe that it's okay to have that stripped from you? What does it mean to have that right stripped from you?

These questions are quite far from being abstract. It's a very real life situation.

Thanks,

Pete

All the discussion here can be divided into two general categories; religious and political.

Spiritual statements are well founded and I find that I'm pretty much in agreement with most of them.
Political statements are also well grounded, except that not many have replied to them. Since the lead post in this thread implies a political response, I'll add my two cents here - expanded 1,000 % due to inflation.

IRS statute 501.c.3 makes all churches an agency of the Federal government.

Raenske's post #5 stated it clearly and bears repetition. There are no longer any teeth in the gospel and shepherds no longer guide their flocks in the way of Christ because they prefer to keep their glory and their jobs rather than obey Jesus.

"The parsons will dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes. Protestant clergy don't believe in anything except their well-being and office".
- Adolph Hitler

The moral core of any person, family, community or nation depends upon an adherence to a strict and well defined supernatural code of behavior. The laws of God are just and right and good. Because man's behavior and man's laws are not - there is a conflict. When government meddles in the affairs of religion God and God's law is ALWAYS subverted. Man, whether he wishes to acknowledge it or not, is a creature that needs to worship something greater than himself and to obey something other than his own base impulses. If the will of God is denied, then the will of the state takes precedence. Always!


"If there is a decay of conscience, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the public press lacks moral discernment, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the church is degenerate and worldly, the pulpit is responsible for it. If the world loses its interest in Christianity, the pulpit is responsible for it. If Satan rules in our halls of legislation, the pulpit is responsible for it. If our politics become so corrupt that their very foundations of our government are ready to fall away, the pulpit is responsible for it."
- Charles Finney

America has adopted a narcissistic tendency to worship itself. We as a nation have forgotten that our security, our prosperity and our peace issue from the throne of heaven not the pentagon, wall street and the military. Today, America is first and God has been told to leave us alone, to leave town, to take His Son and hit the road. And so He has....


"Allegiance to God is best demonstrated by allegiance to the state."
- Adolph Hitler

It begins, as Adolph said, with a perverted sense of inordinate affection and dedication to the government and a desire to place its leaders upon a pedestal they do not deserve and that God did not intend. It ends with the deaths of millions, the destruction of vast amounts of property and the waste of national and private resources diverted into the hands of a few greedy, murderous and lying men.

"Remember that everything the Nazis did was legal."
- Mahatma Ghandi

We are living today in a post-constitutional America. The document which once guaranteed our freedom from government meddling, restrictions and punishment no longer functions. It is very important that each and every follower of Christ in this country be aware of this fact. The days of religious liberty in America are over.

In a country where public prayer in Jesus name is illegal, it ought to be obvious to everyone that Christianity is illegal. Unfortunately it is not. There still remain a large number of people who live believing in a legal system that is making war upon them - believing that innocence will save them.

Innocence will not save us! Six million European Jews once believed their innocence would save them - until the day they were hauled off to the death camps. Even then, many of them could scarcely understand what was happening to them. The whole notion of organized religious persecution by the government is so abhorrent that most Christians refuse to consider the possibility - even when we read and hear what happens to those of us who violate these laws.

"I don't know about you, but when the federal government starts targeting people based on their religious beliefs, that makes me very nervous."
-Michael Snyder - BLN Contributing Writer
(from a column on "conspiracy nuts")
Huffington Post 08/29/11

It is high time that Christians take a cold hard look at the anti-Christian culture that now infects a once tolerate and great land. Liberty is NOT the love of the land any more - religion notwithstanding. Petty dictators and potentates are everywhere and our freedom to worship Christ when and where and as we choose is now restricted and illegal.

Even a man in a death camp has the internal spiritual freedom to worship God. Do we have to go that far to realize the spiritual temperature of the nation? If fear that we do, for I see few that understand worship of the state is a sin, not patriotism.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...