Why I could personally never chose to be Catholic

[Grams]

You either go to Heaven or to hell.................

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

WRONG.
The "Great Divorce" is referring to William Blake's poem The Marriage of Heaven and Hell.
C. S. Lewis showed the abject difference, hence, the "Great Divorce".

Lewis stated plainly about his belief in Purgatory:
“Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they?”

He also said:
“I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering. Partly from tradition; partly because most real good that has been done me in this life has involved it."

Well, you know how to read something off of google
Good for you
Too bad you ain't got the facts straight Jack!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, you know how to read something off of google
Good for you
Too bad you ain't got the facts straight Jack!

Then please enlighten me.
What did I say about C. S. Lewis that was inaccurate?

I eagerly await your response . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You either go to Heaven or to hell.................

Correct.
Some must be purified before entering Heaven.

Rev. 21:27 tells us in NO uncertain terms that nothing impure or unclean can enter Heaven.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

hey Breadman, what's purgatory like?
I know with you imagination you'll come up with a good answer.

 

[aspen]

Christians go to Purgatory.....Trolls go to Hell

 

[brakelite]

Brakelite,
Are you saying Jesus sinned?

No. He knew no sin, nor was ever tainted with sin until our sins were laid upon Him.

And that He had a sin nature?

He was born with the exact same nature we are born with. As I said in my post previous, Paul stated categorically that in order to fully sympathise with man and give man the help he needed, Jesus had to be born with the same fleshly nature that we have. Which nature He inherited through Mary, which through crafty and lying device Satan has concealed to so many through the Catholic nonsense of the immaculate conception. Even Protestants are wrong for the most part by claiming Jesus was born in the unfallen flesh of Adam.


Hebrews 2:14-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
See also Phil. 2:7,8; Hebrews 4:15,16.

If Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, then it must have been at the risk of succumbing to temptation. If He were only half man, as the Catholics teach, then there was no risk of sinning, no risk of yielding to temptation. If Christ was exempt from the passions of mankind, He was different from other men, none of whom is so exempt. Such teaching is tragic, and completely contrary to what Christianity is founded on, and have always taught and believed. Christ came as a man among men, asking no favors and receiving no special consideration. According to the terms of the covenant He was not to receive any help from God not available to any other man. This was a necessary condition if His demonstration was to be of any value and His work acceptable. The least deviation from this rule would invalidate the experiment, nullify the agreement, void the covenant, and effectively destroy all hope for man.
If Christ had been exempt from passions, He would have been unable to understand or help mankind. It, therefore, behoved Him "in all things to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest. . . for in that He Himself hath suffered, being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." Hebrews 2:17,18. If Christ was born without the fallen nature; if He was born exempt from the real day-to-day battles that we need to fight; if He was born without having to conquer 'self and 'die daily' as we do, then it makes a farce of the gospel and liar of God. A Saviour who has never been tempted, never has had to battle with passions, who has never "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him who was able to save Him from death," who "though He were a son" never learned obedience by the things He suffered, but was "exempt" from the very things that a true Savior must experience: such a savior is what Catholicism offers us. It is not the kind of Savior I need, nor the world. One who has never struggled with passions can have no understanding of their power, nor has he ever had the joy of overcoming them. If God extended special favors and exemptions to Christ, in that very act He disqualified Him for His work. There can be no heresy more harmful than that is here discussed. It takes away the Savior I have known and substitutes for Him a weak personality, not considered by God capable of resisting and conquering the passions which He asks men to overcome.

 

[brakelite]

Uhhh, NO – it’s not.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

WHO sinned first – Adam or Eve??
Gen. 3:6 tells us that Eve sinned first – yet Rom. 5:12 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22 tell us that sin entered the world through ADAM.

Original Sin is passed through the FATHER. Who is Jesus’s Father??

The sins of the fathers are NOT passed on to anyone. The fallen nature is. And for those who are without Christ, the effects of sin can be passed on to several generations...but Christ can and does intervene to break the pattern in those who by faith lay hold on Christ and His offer of grace and salvation through His shed blood.

καὶεἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν· χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.

Not good enough. I want to know your source. To understand the authority of the text that came from...not just some made up Catholic interpolation for a corrupted text from the Douay Rheims or such like.

es – necessary for her to be without sine when she conceived HIM – but not conceived without sine herself. Her Immaculate Conception is how God chose to do this.

So Jesus could not take a stand against sin Himself without help from His mother's genes...or lack thereof? God had to cheat and deceive the world into thinking that Jesus was just like us when all along He was only half a man...half human?

And, as I already showed you – sin is passed through the FATHER – and Jesus’s Father is GOD.

See above.

WRONG.
Jesus is the SPOTLESS Lamb. It is ONLY because He is spotless (without sin) that he can be the perfect offering for the propitiation of sin.

See post in response to @GodsGrace above.

 

[brakelite]

That's NOT what the Bible says . . .

Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or "purgation" is necessary for some before entering heaven.

We read in 1 Cor. 3:12-15. It says that the day of judgment will disclose the foundation that a person builds upon and how it will be revealed:
“If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.”

This isn't Heaven, because the person will SUFFER LOSS.
This isn't Hell because the person WILL BE SAVED.
This is talking about a THIRD state - a state of purification or "purgation" before entering Heaven.

There are MANY verses that describe God handing out his justice as a Refiner. A refiner is someone who takes the raw material for metal and actually gets the gold and silver and iron from that material - and he does it with FIRE. We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27-30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

Additionally, Matt. 12:32 states, “whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come”, which indicates that there IS purification after death for some.

Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

It is in this life, today, that is the day of salvation. It is today, in this life that God works in us His righteousness. It is today that He offers us His power to overcome.
Not in the next life as some form of second chance.


Revelation 3:17-21

7 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[brakelite]

This truth about the human nature of Christ is essential doctrine to ever Bible believing Christian. If you believe anything else other than this truth, then your entire conception of Christianity must be skewed at many points. In His humanity Christ partook of our sinful, fallen nature. If not, then, He was not made 'like unto His brethren,' was not 'in all points tempted like as we are,' did not overcome as we have to overcome', and is not, therefore, the complete and perfect Savior man needs and must have to be saved. The idea that Christ was born of an immaculate or sinless mother (Protestants do not claim this for the virgin Mary), inherited no tendencies to sin, and for this reason did not sin, removes Him from the realm of a fallen world, and from the very place where help is needed. On His human side, Christ inherited just what every child of Adam inherits--a sinful, fallen nature. On the divine side, from His very conception He was begotten and born of the Spirit. And this was done to place mankind on vantage-ground, and to demonstrate that in the same way every one who is 'born of the Spirit' may gain like victories over sin in his own sinful flesh. Thus each one is to overcome as Christ overcame (Revelation 3:21). Without this birth there can be no victory over temptation, and no salvation from sin (John 3: 3-7). Any other belief confirms the heresy of many that we must sin till the day we die because it is impossible to do otherwise. Christ Himself, in the flesh of fallen man, proved this a gross error.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The sins of the fathers are NOT passed on to anyone. The fallen nature is. And for those who are without Christ, the effects of sin can be passed on to several generations...but Christ can and does intervene to break the pattern in those who by faith lay hold on Christ and His offer of grace and salvation through His shed blood.

And the point here is that Jesus didn't have a sin nature because HIS Father is THE Father (God).

Not good enough. I want to know your source. To understand the authority of the text that came from...not just some made up Catholic interpolation for a corrupted text from the Douay Rheims or such like.

The Douay Rheims didn't use Kecharitomene because it was in LATIN.
It uses the term Gratia Plena (full of grace).
“Full of Grace” translates kecharitōmĕnē the perfect passive participle of charitŏō. It denotes one who has been and still is the object of divine benevolence, one who has been favored and continues to be favored by God, one who has been granted supernatural grace and remains in this state.[1] Verbs ending in ŏō, such as haimatŏō (turn into blood), thaumatŏō (fill with wonder), spodŏōmai (burn to ashes) frequently express the full intensity of the action. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action.[2]

Carol, Juniper B., O.F.M. “Mariology”, Milwaukee: The Bruce Publishing Co. 1955.
O’Meara, Thomas A., O.P. “Mary in Protestant and Catholic Theology”, New York: Sheed and Ward, 1965.

[1] Cf. L Cerfaux, Gratia plena, in Mémories et Raports du Congrès Marial tenu à Bruxelles (1921), Vol. I (Bruxelles, 1922), pp. 34-40.
[2] H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b.

So Jesus could not take a stand against sin Himself without help from His mother's genes...or lack thereof? God had to cheat and deceive the world into thinking that Jesus was just like us when all along He was only half a man...half human?

What makes you think that God "cheated" or "deceived" the world??
He can do ANYTHING He pleases.

What makes you think that a wooden box overlaid with gold and carried mere symbols of God's power (the Ark) should be more pure and undefiled than the person who actually carried GOD Himself??

Pretty warped logic on your part . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

It is in this life, today, that is the day of salvation. It is today, in this life that God works in us His righteousness. It is today that He offers us His power to overcome.
Not in the next life as some form of second chance.

Revelation 3:17-21

7 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And it is in THIS LIFE - TODAY that we can throw away that gift of Salvation.

Final purification (Purgatory) isn't about a "second chance". It's about purifying a saved person before entering Heaven.
Rev. 21:27 states emphatically that NOTHING impure or unclean can enter - not even Luther's "snow-covered dunghills" . . .

 

[GodsGrace]

No. He knew no sin, nor was ever tainted with sin until our sins were laid upon Him.

He was born with the exact same nature we are born with. As I said in my post previous, Paul stated categorically that in order to fully sympathise with man and give man the help he needed, Jesus had to be born with the same fleshly nature that we have. Which nature He inherited through Mary, which through crafty and lying device Satan has concealed to so many through the Catholic nonsense of the immaculate conception. Even Protestants are wrong for the most part by claiming Jesus was born in the unfallen flesh of Adam.


Hebrews 2:14-17

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
See also Phil. 2:7,8; Hebrews 4:15,16.

If Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, then it must have been at the risk of succumbing to temptation. If He were only half man, as the Catholics teach, then there was no risk of sinning, no risk of yielding to temptation. If Christ was exempt from the passions of mankind, He was different from other men, none of whom is so exempt. Such teaching is tragic, and completely contrary to what Christianity is founded on, and have always taught and believed. Christ came as a man among men, asking no favors and receiving no special consideration. According to the terms of the covenant He was not to receive any help from God not available to any other man. This was a necessary condition if His demonstration was to be of any value and His work acceptable. The least deviation from this rule would invalidate the experiment, nullify the agreement, void the covenant, and effectively destroy all hope for man.
If Christ had been exempt from passions, He would have been unable to understand or help mankind. It, therefore, behoved Him "in all things to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest. . . for in that He Himself hath suffered, being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted." Hebrews 2:17,18. If Christ was born without the fallen nature; if He was born exempt from the real day-to-day battles that we need to fight; if He was born without having to conquer 'self and 'die daily' as we do, then it makes a farce of the gospel and liar of God. A Saviour who has never been tempted, never has had to battle with passions, who has never "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him who was able to save Him from death," who "though He were a son" never learned obedience by the things He suffered, but was "exempt" from the very things that a true Savior must experience: such a savior is what Catholicism offers us. It is not the kind of Savior I need, nor the world. One who has never struggled with passions can have no understanding of their power, nor has he ever had the joy of overcoming them. If God extended special favors and exemptions to Christ, in that very act He disqualified Him for His work. There can be no heresy more harmful than that is here discussed. It takes away the Savior I have known and substitutes for Him a weak personality, not considered by God capable of resisting and conquering the passions which He asks men to overcome.

Jesus certainly did not have a weak personality. He split time in two.
Before He was born and after He was born.

Your first sentence is correct. Your idea of Jesus being born with the same nature as we are can't be correct.

First of all we have to understand that Jesus was 100% fully man and 100% fully God. He was like us in all ways, even in temptation, but He never sinned. Our nature is what makes us what we are. We sin because we have the sin nature. God cannot have this nature because He is Holy and pure...
Hebrews 7:26
For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;

Hebrews addresses this question well.
Hebrews 4:15-16
15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Jesus was tempted in all things as we are, but without sin.
One cannot sin unless he has the sin nature. If Jesus did not sin, it's because He did NOT have the sin nature. Verse 16 does go on to say that we can draw near to the throne of grace to receive mercy...Jesus understood us well, even without the sin nature.

Jesus could have been tempted even without the sin nature.
Think of Adam. Before he ate of the fruit, Adam did NOT have the sin nature, and yet he was able to be tempted to eat it and did. In this same way Jesus was tempted but, unlike Adam, He did not succumb to the temptation.

Also, it's believed by many theologians that the sin nature is passed on by the father since it is by Adam that we have our fallen nature.
Romans 5:12 Through one man sin entered into the world.
Since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, this nature was not transmitted to Him.

Theologian Bruce Ware argues for this position:

Notice, it is the sins of the fathers visited upon the third and fourth generation. Notice, when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden, Eve sinned first and Adam is held accountable for it. And notice the virgin birth of Christ. This accomplishes, in my judgment, at least two things. One, he was fully God and fully man. So the Holy Spirit took the place of a human father and brought about this conception so that the one born would be called the Son of God (Lk 1:35). The second thing was, it prevented the sinful line of Adam from being passed on from the father. Every other human being born, you and me included, had a dad; at least at the point of conception there was a human father involved and sin is passed on. Not with Christ; there was no human father.

Source: Did Jesus Have a Sin Nature? - Blog - Eternal Perspective Ministries

BTW, this has nothing to do with Catholic doctrine.
For instance, Bruce Ware is an evangelical theologian.
It's accepted by all churches that I know of that Jesus was born without the sin nature.

 

[BreadOfLife]

hey Breadman, what's purgatory like?
I know with you imagination you'll come up with a good answer.

If you want to know what it's like - read 1 Cor. 3:10-15 . . .

 

[Grams]

There is one way only !!!!!!!

Belief in GOD and JESUS ............... to understand what GOD and JESUS did for us !

So we can go to heaven.............. TO know and believe........ and to have a good place in heaven , to try to do our best on

this earth......

 

[brakelite]

Jesus was tempted in all things as we are, but without sin.
One cannot sin unless he has the sin nature. If Jesus did not sin, it's because He did NOT have the sin nature.

Then He had an advantage over us and cannot be our example, nor can we expect to find any help in HIm because He doesn't understand our position having never experienced it. I don't buy it, and neither does scripture support it. He was tempted in all points just as we are. He was tempted with the capacity to sin. He didn't sin, not because He didn't have the nature that all men are born with, but because to sin was to Him an abhorrence and such an an offensive idea that He repelled it at every turn... He didn't sin because He chose not to.

It's accepted by all churches that I know of that Jesus was born without the sin nature.

Yes, which is why the church today teaches that we cannot overcome sin in this life, and why it is in such a parlous worldly state. The church doesn't believe Christ overcame as we need to, therefore we don't need to overcome as He did...indeed, according to the popular idea, we cannot.
See post #370 above.

 

[brakelite]

And it is in THIS LIFE - TODAY that we can throw away that gift of Salvation.

Yes, I will offer you no argument there. Although a loving gracious merciful God will not allow you to do so easily.

It's about purifying a saved person before entering Heaven.

And what is so wrong or weak with the power of God to do so now?

 

[Grams]

There is no ......................Purgatory !!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes, I will offer you no argument there. Although a loving gracious merciful God will not allow you to do so easily.

In your description of God - you left out one of the MOST important adjectives: JUST.
He is a just God, as well as being loving and merciful. He WILLS the salvation of all people but NOT all will be saved because of what THEY decide..

And what is so wrong or weak with the power of God to do so now?

It's not GOD'S fault that many will need purification before entering Heaven - any more than it is a parent's fault that their kid needs a hot bath.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is no ......................Purgatory !!

And you can keep repeating that until you're blue in the face - but Scripture disagrees with you . . .
2 Macc. 42-46, Matt. 5:25-26, Matt. 12:32, Matt. 18:32-35, Luke 12:58-59, 1 Cor. 3:12-15