Why I could personally never chose to be Catholic

[BreadOfLife]

-
Council of Trent Session 6, Chapter 16, Canon 16 . . If anyone says that he will for certain, with
an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to
the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation, let him be anathema.

That's good preachin' from Trent.
I said that I know that I am going to Heaven - IF I remain faithful to the end.
That's not absolute certainty - that's Faith and HOPE . . .

 

[Webers_Home]

-
Q: At Matt 16:18, Jesus said: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build
my church; and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."
What is the meaning of that verse?

A: Basically it's saying that should one of Christ's true believing followers slip
through a crack and end up in the wrong place, they will be able to stroll
right on out of there like a tourist in Paris; likely guided on their journey by
a celestial being, maybe similar to Peter's experience when he escaped jail in
Acts 12:3-11.

I should point out that if the Roman Catholic Church were the "my church"
that Christ spoke of in Matt 16:18, then no true Catholic-- not one --would
end up in hell; but I'm pretty sure that Rome expects to lose a number of its
followers to eternal suffering; which reminds me of a line from the movie
AVATAR spoken by Colonel Miles Quaritch, played by Stephen Lang, that
goes like this:

It is my job to keep you alive.
I will not succeed . . not with all of you.

/

 

[BreadOfLife]

Reasons why I could personally never chose to be Catholic

Everyone has a different divine authority that structures and determines the Gospel.

My divine authority is determined and structured by the Bible alone and in its entirety, is the word of God.

While the Catholics divine authority is structured by the Bible + meaning, they have a wider authority than that of the Bible alone. They follow the traditions of men, the infallibility of their pope and church, the sayings of Fatima, elevating Mary as a co-redemptrix, water baptism that saves,...etc., all of which are a contradiction to Revelation 22:18 which reads:

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.”

The plagues written herein are the judgments of God, and the book can only mean the Bible. In other words, Revelation 22:18 is a very ominous warning for those who add to the true Gospel.

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other Gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed Galatians 1:9.

To God Be The Glory

Then you'll have to show me where the Bible says that it is our SOLE Authority.
MY Bible says that Christ's Church is our earthly authority . . .

Matt 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.

He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

 

[Webers_Home]

-

I know that I am going to Heaven - IF I remain faithful to the end. That's not
absolute certainty - that's Faith and HOPE

● 1Pet 3:15 . . Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks
you for a reason for your hope.

The Greek word for "hope" in Peter's command is elpis (el pece') which
means to anticipate (usually with pleasure) and to expect with confidence.
Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, and confidence.

In other words: Peter's hope is a know-so hope rather than a cross your
fingers hope.

So, unless someone is 110% confident-- beyond even the slightest glimmer
of sensible doubt --that they are going to heaven, then of course it is
impossible for them to comply with Peter's instructions seeing as they would
not yet have the kind of hope about which he wrote.

● Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope.

When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind
dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for rejoicing; no; but they
do have plenty of cause to fear the unknown.

/

 

[mjrhealth]

MY Bible says that Christ's Church is our earthly authority . . .

actually it doesnt say that at all and it certainly makes no mention of any "catholic" church, but than we have being listening to your fanciful stories for so long they are getting boring. ANd here you are Just like Saul persecuting Christ with your deceipt and just like him, proud that you are doing so. Well that religion for you, just like Egypt a prison for people.

 

[Webers_Home]

-

you'll have to show me where the Bible says that it is our SOLE
Authority.

Whether the Bible is someone's sole authority or their secondary authority
makes no difference because in the long run it is still an authority-- a valid
authority fully recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church.

Many of the Catholics with whom I've dialogued place far more faith in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church (a.k.a. CCC) than they do the Bible; which
is not an uncommon error. For example: when Christ was here, he
condemned elements of Judaism that are allowed more authority than the
Bible (Matt 23:23 and Mark 7:6-13). Well, that being his manner; I've no
doubt Christ has a list of things that he'd like very much culled from the
CCC.

According to the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) the Scriptures are sacred
and canonical because "having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost,
they have God for their author"

Faithful Roman Catholics should not be reluctant to agree with the Council's
ruling that the Bible is:

1• Sacred

2• Canonical

3• Inspired by the Holy Ghost, and

4• Authored by God

There's also this:

"In its pages we recognize His voice, we hear a message of deep significance
for every one of us. Through the spiritual dynamism and prophetic force of
the Bible, the Holy Spirit spreads His light and His warmth over all men, in
whatever historical or sociological situation they find themselves." (Paulus PP
VI, from the Vatican, September 18, 1970)

So then; according to that Vatican Council and to Paulus PP VI; when people
listen to the Bible; they're hearing the voice of God, and also listening to
that which the Holy Spirit utilizes to spread His light and His warmth over all
men.

According to the apostle Paul; a knowledge of the Bible protects people from
falsehood.

● 2Tim 4:2-4 . .Preach the word of God. Be persistent, whether the time is
favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with
good teaching. For a time is coming when they will no longer listen to right
teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who
will tell them whatever they want to hear. They will reject the truth and
follow strange myths.

In reference to the parable of the sower; Christ said: "This is the meaning of
the parable: the seed is the word of God" (Luke 8:11)

When people allow the CCC to overrule the Bible, they become the path
spoken of in that parable. Well; whoever reads the parable of the sower
knows that the word of God does not take root in that particular kind of soil;
it's a killing field for evil.

"Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the Devil comes and
takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be
saved." (Luke 8:12)

/

 

[Grams]

I HAVE TO SAY TO BEGIN WITH : ? THIS MAY NOT BE THE SAME AS IT WAS IN MY TIME...

I was born in 1935....... went to the school for 6 years and church 6 day" a week..........

And the mass was in Latin..... all the C. C. back then !!!!!

And pretty much no one understood this........

Do you know how a child will understand this........ boring and the mind starts to think on things and this makes for
a feeling of boredom and no understanding........... so as years go by who really want to do this. ????????????

When the priest spoke in English only on Sunday mass.......... you felt like why listen the same as the last 5 day's

how can you learn from this ?

 

[bbyrd009]

That's good preachin' from Trent.
I said that I know that I am going to Heaven - IF I remain faithful to the end.
That's not absolute certainty - that's Faith and HOPE . . .

nice, i'm kind of surprised at the "special rev" part, i thought the RCC frowned on that?

 

[Grams]

[[[[[[[ I said that I know that I am going to Heaven - IF I remain faithful to the end. ]]]]]]]]]]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then I believe you are not sure you're saved to begin with !

 

[BreadOfLife]

-
Q: At Matt 16:18, Jesus said: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build
my church; and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it."
What is the meaning of that verse?

A: Basically it's saying that should one of Christ's true believing followers slip
through a crack and end up in the wrong place, they will be able to stroll
right on out of there like a tourist in Paris; likely guided on their journey by
a celestial being, maybe similar to Peter's experience when he escaped jail in
Acts 12:3-11.

I should point out that if the Roman Catholic Church were the "my church"
that Christ spoke of in Matt 16:18, then no true Catholic-- not one --would
end up in hell; but I'm pretty sure that Rome expects to lose a number of its
followers to eternal suffering; which reminds me of a line from the movie
AVATAR spoken by Colonel Miles Quaritch, played by Stephen Lang, that
goes like this:

It is my job to keep you alive.
I will not succeed . . not with all of you./

I would venture to say that your comment in RED is correct - depending on what YOU mean by "true Catholic."

If by "true", you mean faithful to the end - then absolutely. However, if you mean that they are simple Catholic in name only - then all bets are off.

As for your interpretation of Matt. 16:18 - I've never heard even the most clueless of anti-Catholics come to that bizarre conclusion . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

nice, i'm kind of surprised at the "special rev" part, i thought the RCC frowned on that?

What do you mean by "special rev" that the Catholic Church supposedly "frowns" on??

 

[BreadOfLife]

actually it doesnt say that at all and it certainly makes no mention of any "catholic" church, but than we have being listening to your fanciful stories for so long they are getting boring. ANd here you are Just like Saul persecuting Christ with your deceipt and just like him, proud that you are doing so. Well that religion for you, just like Egypt a prison for people.

Tell you what - I'll give you a chance to dig your way out of this.
Explain to me what the following verses mean if they are NOT talking about Church Authority:

Matt 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.
If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 16:12-15
“I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now.
But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to ALL truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to YOU the things that are coming.

He will glorify me, because he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.
Everything that the Father has is MINE; for this reason I told you that he will TAKE from what is MINE and declare it to YOU.

John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects theONE who sent ME."

 

[BreadOfLife]

-

Whether the Bible is someone's sole authority or their secondary authority
makes no difference because in the long run it is still an authority-- a valid
authority fully recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church.

Many of the Catholics with whom I've dialogued place far more faith in the
Catechism of the Catholic Church (a.k.a. CCC) than they do the Bible; which
is not an uncommon error. For example: when Christ was here, he
condemned elements of Judaism that are allowed more authority than the
Bible (Matt 23:23 and Mark 7:6-13). Well, that being his manner; I've no
doubt Christ has a list of things that he'd like very much culled from the
CCC.

According to the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) the Scriptures are sacred
and canonical because "having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost,
they have God for their author"

Faithful Roman Catholics should not be reluctant to agree with the Council's
ruling that the Bible is:

1• Sacred

2• Canonical

3• Inspired by the Holy Ghost, and

4• Authored by God

There's also this:

"In its pages we recognize His voice, we hear a message of deep significance
for every one of us. Through the spiritual dynamism and prophetic force of
the Bible, the Holy Spirit spreads His light and His warmth over all men, in
whatever historical or sociological situation they find themselves." (Paulus PP
VI, from the Vatican, September 18, 1970)

So then; according to that Vatican Council and to Paulus PP VI; when people
listen to the Bible; they're hearing the voice of God, and also listening to
that which the Holy Spirit utilizes to spread His light and His warmth over all
men.

According to the apostle Paul; a knowledge of the Bible protects people from
falsehood.

● 2Tim 4:2-4 . .Preach the word of God. Be persistent, whether the time is
favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with
good teaching. For a time is coming when they will no longer listen to right
teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who
will tell them whatever they want to hear. They will reject the truth and
follow strange myths.

In reference to the parable of the sower; Christ said: "This is the meaning of
the parable: the seed is the word of God" (Luke 8:11)

When people allow the CCC to overrule the Bible, they become the path
spoken of in that parable. Well; whoever reads the parable of the sower
knows that the word of God does not take root in that particular kind of soil;
it's a killing field for evil.

"Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the Devil comes and
takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be
saved." (Luke 8:12)

/

 

[BreadOfLife]

Whether the Bible is someone's sole authority or their secondary authority makes no difference because in the long run it is still an authority-- a valid authority fully recognized as such by the Roman Catholic Church.

Many of the Catholics with whom I've dialogued place far more faith in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (a.k.a. CCC) than they do the Bible; which is not an uncommon error. For example: when Christ was here, he condemned elements of Judaism that are allowed more authority than the Bible (Matt 23:23 and Mark 7:6-13). Well, that being his manner; I've no doubt Christ has a list of things that he'd like very much culled from the CCC.

According to the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) the Scriptures are sacred and canonical because "having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author"

Faithful Roman Catholics should not be reluctant to agree with the Council's ruling that the Bible is:

1• Sacred
2• Canonical
3• Inspired by the Holy Ghost, and
4• Authored by God
There's also this:

"In its pages we recognize His voice, we hear a message of deep significance for every one of us. Through the spiritual dynamism and prophetic force of the Bible, the Holy Spirit spreads His light and His warmth over all men, in whatever historical or sociological situation they find themselves." (Paulus PP VI, from the Vatican, September 18, 1970)

So then; according to that Vatican Council and to Paulus PP VI; when people listen to the Bible; they're hearing the voice of God, and also listening to that which the Holy Spirit utilizes to spread His light and His warmth over all men.

According to the apostle Paul; a knowledge of the Bible protects people from falsehood.

● 2Tim 4:2-4 . .Preach the word of God. Be persistent, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching. For a time is coming when they will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear. They will reject the truth and follow strange myths.
In reference to the parable of the sower; Christ said: "This is the meaning of the parable: the seed is the word of God" (Luke 8:11)

When people allow the CCC to overrule the Bible, they become the path spoken of in that parable. Well; whoever reads the parable of the sower knows that the word of God does not take root in that particular kind of soil; it's a killing field for evil.

"Those on the path are the ones who have heard, but the Devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts that they may not believe and be saved." (Luke 8:12)

Thank you for that verbose and painfully-obvious rant about the Authority of Scripture.

I never stated that Scripture had "NO" Authority. It absolutely does.
I said PROVE to me that it is our SOLE Authority - and you couldn't do that.

As to your above statement in RED - this is a false and misleading position because the Church doesn't "overrule" the Bible and has never even tried to do so. It is in perfect harmony with Scripture.

 

[bbyrd009]

What do you mean by "special rev" that the Catholic Church supposedly "frowns" on??

isn't individual revelation frowned on by the church? or is the context different there?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I HAVE TO SAY TO BEGIN WITH : ? THIS MAY NOT BE THE SAME AS IT WAS IN MY TIME...

I was born in 1935....... went to the school for 6 years and church 6 day" a week..........

And the mass was in Latin..... all the C. C. back then !!!!!

And pretty much no one understood this........

Do you know how a child will understand this........ boring and the mind starts to think on things and this makes for
a feeling of boredom and no understanding........... so as years go by who really want to do this. ????????????

When the priest spoke in English only on Sunday mass.......... you felt like why listen the same as the last 5 day's

how can you learn from this ?

Are you saying that the "only" place to learn about God is on Sunday??
The FIRST place I learned about God and the Gospel was at home, as it should be for ALL children of Christians.

Also - if I'm not mistaken - you claim to have gone to Catholic school?
Did they also teach you in Latin? Or did they speak English?

 

[BreadOfLife]

isn't individual revelation frowned on by the church? or is the context different there?

Where did I speak of "individual" revelation??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Then I believe you are not sure you're saved to begin with !

Saved? Yes.
Saved to the end? That depends on my cooperation with God's grace.

That's what the Bible teaches.

 

[BreadOfLife]

● 1Pet 3:15 . . Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope.

The Greek word for "hope" in Peter's command is elpis (el pece') which means to anticipate (usually with pleasure) and to expect with confidence. Note the elements of anticipation, and expectation, and confidence.

In other words: Peter's hope is a know-so hope rather than a cross your fingers hope.

So, unless someone is 110% confident-- beyond even the slightest glimmer of sensible doubt --that they are going to heaven, then of course it is impossible for them to comply with Peter's instructions seeing as they would not yet have the kind of hope about which he wrote.

● Rom 12:12 . . Rejoicing in hope.

When people are praying for the best, while in the back of their mind dreading the worst, they have absolutely no cause for rejoicing; no; but they do have plenty of cause to fear the unknown.

WHO said anything about "crossing" my fingers??

As I stated in post #38 - my salvation depends on depends on my cooperation with God's grace - and therein lies my HOPE.

 

[bbyrd009]

Where did I speak of "individual" revelation??

"unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation"
not your quote, and i also understand not the point of the quote, yet there it is