2 Chronicles 17:9 (NKJV)
9 So they taught in Judah, and had the Book of the Law of the LORD with them; they went throughout all the cities of Judah and taught the people.
Why is God So Mean?
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2 Chronicles 17:9 (NKJV)
9 So they taught in Judah, and had the Book of the Law of the LORD with them; they went throughout all the cities of Judah and taught the people.
Robbie
New Member
Thanks for the reference from before Christ died on the cross... but guess what... Good News!!! a couple things have changed since then... haha
I don't recall saying that without a Bible it's impossible to share Jesus. I do recall you making a statement along the lines of the Bible being contradictory, inaccurate, and unnecessary. I am in the negative. Yes, I would rather understand you, but all I get is contradictions by yourself! You say that you don't need a Bible, yet EVERYTHING that you have been talking about finds NO base EXCEPT the Bible! Perhaps you should put yourself in your own shoes and try to talk to us without using a Bible!
Robbie
New Member
Yes you did, "The Bible is what leads us to Jesus. We cannot find the true Jesus without the Bible nor can we find the true Jesus if the Bible is not infallible."
Tell me this... how did anyone find the true Jesus before the New Testament was written if it's the key to finding the true Jesus? and also... why didn't the Pharisees come running to Jesus when they had been searching for life in the scriptures all along? But instead found reason in the scriptures to crucify the King?
also... were Mathew, Mark, Luke and John dependent on their written testimonies one day being in the same book as the Law and the Prophets in order for them to be true or to have authority? and did their unveiled revelation of God in Jesus Christ have not to disagree with anything that was written when man saw God through a veil? Or do they have authority because they are the truth and testify to the truth... Jesus Christ... who is the Word of God?
Tell me this Grounzero... do you disagree with this statement...
Tell me this... how did anyone find the true Jesus before the New Testament was written if it's the key to finding the true Jesus? and also... why didn't the Pharisees come running to Jesus when they had been searching for life in the scriptures all along? But instead found reason in the scriptures to crucify the King?
also... were Mathew, Mark, Luke and John dependent on their written testimonies one day being in the same book as the Law and the Prophets in order for them to be true or to have authority? and did their unveiled revelation of God in Jesus Christ have not to disagree with anything that was written when man saw God through a veil? Or do they have authority because they are the truth and testify to the truth... Jesus Christ... who is the Word of God?
Tell me this Grounzero... do you disagree with this statement...
Ok. So tell me Robbie. I guess some spirit just descended on you and told you everything you know?! In this day and age, there is only ONE place where we can read of the glorious salvation that Jesus' purchased for us, and that is in the Bible. For anyone in this day-and-age, they ultimately have the Bible to thank for the fact that they know about Jesus because that's the only piece of evidence left to us! As to finding Jesus with an infallible Bible, if Scripture is inaccurate and contradicts itself, it IMMEDIATELY places a question mark over the fact of it's AUTHENTICITY. If the Bible is NOT God-inspired, we cannot trust it! Therefore, unless you know of some other source that tells us the amazing story of Jesus, we CANNOT trust the story of Jesus that is told us in the Bible, after all, it might have been all just some fairytale!!!
Open your ears and hear! I NEVER said that you cannot SHARE Jesus with someone else without a bible! I did say that without an infallible Bible we CANNOT know the True Jesus! All we have to go on is what someone told us! Mind you, there are many different opinions of who Jesus was, and the majority of what we know about Jesus all comes from the Bible.
Dear Robbie, I have SHARED Jesus with someone else WITHOUT a Bible, but the ONLY reason I could do that is because I had READ the Bible! If there were no Bibles in the world, we would all be LOST, whether you like to admit it or not.
Robbie
New Member
haha... sorry guy but God isn't dependent on paper and ink... you're mistaken... and your pride has blinded you... I pray the best for you... and may the morning star rise in your heart... over and out...
Let's see, other than Israel, every where else was in the dark so to speak. They were lead by their God-given conscience. In Israel, the nation God had chosen as his own, God revealed himself as YAHEWH. They walked by faith, following the prophets and leaders of their day who should have been following God. As we well know, only some of them did. The others did the opposite. Man couldn't experience Jesus like we can because sin still divided man from God. It wasn't until Jesus died that the gulf was fixed. The answer was, they couldn't, because there was no means of doing it.
As to the Pharisees, they were looking for a DIFFERENT Jesus. The WRONG Jesus. They were after someone who would restore the kingdom of Israel! The Pharisees hated Jesus because he showed them up for what they were: hypocrites. Men bent on self-glory and self-gain. That is why they crucified him. He was threatening them!
Jesus fulfilled the Law. He did not contradict the Law. When Jesus died, it was FINISHED, and a new dispensation had begun. The Gospels relied on the OT because all throughout them, they reference back to the prophecies concerning Jesus. The NT NEEDS the OT, likewise the OT needs the NT! You cannot separate them!
I disagree with the statement. I agree that the authority rests with the fact that it was God who said it, but if the Bible didn't exist, tell me, would we be hearing Jesus' words from over a thousand years ago in the air? NO! The medium through which we can find Jesus' words is paper! And we call it the Bible!
As to Jesus' 'not saying anything in the Bible', I beg your pardon, but isn't Scripture inspired of God?! If it is, and Jesus is God, then we have something even more important than actually writing something down, and that is, being the inspiration. Interestingly, many times in history, men have written letters, but they weren't the ones who ACTUALLY wrote them down. They were merely the inspiration. They gave the thought, the scribe wrote it down. Who gets the attribution? The one who had the inspiration.
Robbie
New Member
You just don't get it... I really hope one day you do... until then... peace...
Christ spoke everything He said with His mouth and then was quoted... and then those quotes were printed on paper and ink long afterwards... He didn't say anything in the bible... He said it with His mouth... His Words being then quoted in the bible isn't what gives them authority... His Word's coming directly from God is what gives them authority... and that authority isn't shown by them being printed in a book... that authority is shown by them raising the dead, healing the sick, stopping the wind and the waves... etc... Jesus said all of heaven and earth could pass away and His Words wouldn't... so even without the bible... His Words are still alive and powerful...
Christ spoke everything He said with His mouth and then was quoted... and then those quotes were printed on paper and ink long afterwards... He didn't say anything in the bible... He said it with His mouth... His Words being then quoted in the bible isn't what gives them authority... His Word's coming directly from God is what gives them authority... and that authority isn't shown by them being printed in a book... that authority is shown by them raising the dead, healing the sick, stopping the wind and the waves... etc... Jesus said all of heaven and earth could pass away and His Words wouldn't... so even without the bible... His Words are still alive and powerful...
I do apologise for putting those words in your mouth, although that wasn't my intention. But whether it was your intention or not, you have portrayed on these threads an attitude towards the bible. This is not me making something up Robbie. In fact, to be honest, you have assumed things about me as well. You've told me that I have a 'religious spirit', that I'm in denial about scripture. I have stated here that I hate 'religion' and that I believe very strongly in the need for a Christian to really know the gift of the Spirit given to all those saved. Apart from me saying that I do not see contradictions in scripture I have agreed with you about the importance of the Spirit we have been given. So these things you have said about me...they were a lie too...but that's okay...because I forgive you too.
Actually, you have made it quite clear what you think of scripture. When taken all together, the picture is clear. I'm sorry you felt offended at my lumping your thoughts together in a perhaps unwise phrasing...but having read all of the posts I now understand how you feel quite well. I may not agree with it all, but I do get it.
As I said above, I know this. I have said before that I know you read scripture...you have said so before in other threads. I agree with you completely that a relationship with God is possible even if your Bible was taken away. I agree too that you can share Christ without it. We know that God can and does use anything and anyone to move and further His gospel. I have never said that I disagree with this. The only thing that I have been trying to say, is that the Bible is reliable and does not have contradictions. That has been my only goal on this topic. I am not trying to tear down your beliefs and how you feel its so important to listen and live with God within you. The ONLY point I've been trying to make it that the God within you that you trust so implicitly, is the same God that wrote the Bible. My only point has been that the Holy Spirit that dwells within me...the same one that you have...guides me to scripture and tells me that it is sound. That's all. You say it's important to listen to God in us...well I am...and He steers me to scripture and rejoices when I read it, understand it, implement it in my life. That's all I've been trying to say. So in effect all I'm doing is what you've been saying is most important.
Robbie
New Member
Rach.. you keep insinuating that in some way I don't acknowledge or believe what's in the bible because I do admit there's contradictions... but you're wrong... I am believing it... I'm just seeing everything in it's place and the old is past away... everything is made new in Christ...
I'm going to try and bold stuff that I want you to really hear in this...
2 Corinthians 3
Christ’s Epistle
Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
The Spirit, Not the Letter
And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Glory of the New Covenant
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Can you hear what Paul is saying?
I'm going to try and bold stuff that I want you to really hear in this...
2 Corinthians 3
Christ’s Epistle
Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some others, epistles of commendation to you or letters of commendation from you? You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men; clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.
The Spirit, Not the Letter
And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Glory of the New Covenant
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Can you hear what Paul is saying?
Robbie
New Member
First off... the question wasn't for you... it was for Rach... and second I wasn't preaching... I was trying to help her to understand that what I'm saying is what the bible says when talking about the New Covenant... as my impression is that she seems to think I might be in disagreement with it...
And dude you're acting like such a hypocrite... in one thread you're saying to give you peace... and then next thing you know you're following me around other threads and responding to stuff that wasn't even written to you...
It's like whatever guy... what can I do... how you choose to act is on you...
And dude you're acting like such a hypocrite... in one thread you're saying to give you peace... and then next thing you know you're following me around other threads and responding to stuff that wasn't even written to you...
It's like whatever guy... what can I do... how you choose to act is on you...
Robbie, love, I am trying very hard not to laugh at this point. But truly...this is so funny!
Yes, I see what Paul is saying. Yes, I totally agree that the new covenant has brought a wondrous change for us...that being a new and intimate relationship with God, who now dwells within us. The old covenant could never save us, the only hope is the new...I know this! I have never said otherwise!
But...don't you see what you're doing here? You say the Bible isn't needed, yet you seem to have come to the conclusions you have...through the Bible! You're using the Bible to try and prove your point. And it does prove it...but it also proves our point too! Yes we can know Jesus without the bible in front of us...yes we can share Jesus without it...yes we can live a life under the guidance of the Spirit and without scripture. But see how useful scripture is? It can help us put 'focus' to a feeling or thought that the Spirit leads us to. It brings clarity to the truths in our hearts. It helps us show others of the certainty that lives within us. And to a really big extent it is a historical account of Jesus Christ...written history to prove our claims. That's all we've been saying Robbie...that the Bible backs up the Spirit within us...it backs up what we have in our hearts. Just like you've done here.
Let me ask you something. You heard of Jesus from the lips of someone else. And they may have heard of Jesus from the lips of someone else too. But do you suppose that at some point, the 'preacher' would have read the Bible for Himself...that the stories that you heard from someone lips actually came from scripture. For anyone to tell you that the saving Spirit within them, within anyone who believes, actually came to earth as a man, that He died on a cross for our sins and then rose again...for anyone to know this and tell others, they would have had to read it first. To know all the parables that Christ told, to know of all His incredible and loving actions...healing etc...someone would have had to read it first. Because while the Holy Spirit does live within us, and while others can become "saved" just by other testimonies...the Spirit does not send us dreams and visions in story mode that recounts the Bible to us. The only way we can know the life and death...and then life again, of Jesus, is because the bible tells us. And then we go forth with that knowledge and tell others...who then read it for themselves...and go forth and tell others. Do you see?? This is all we're saying....this is why we say that the Bible is important. And I know you probably won't have a problem with this....which kinda makes me wonder if this whole silly argument isn't just a huge communication issue.
We are not saying the Bible has magical powers...what we're basically saying is that the Bible is a photo album of Jesus' life on earth. It's precious to us and lets us look at His life here...let's us know what message to pass onto the lost.
Robbie
New Member
I don't need the bible to understand this Rach... you do... that's why I'm using the bible... the same way Jesus didn't need the scriptures in order to understand the things of God because He has God's Spirit... but He used them for those that wouldn't have acknowledged Him otherwise... as it is with you...
Nobody knows the things of God except the Spirit of God... we who have received the Spirit of God have the mind of Christ...
But the things of the Spirit are foolishness to those that don't have it...
Blessing Rach... but I'm done talking about this...
Nobody knows the things of God except the Spirit of God... we who have received the Spirit of God have the mind of Christ...
But the things of the Spirit are foolishness to those that don't have it...
Blessing Rach... but I'm done talking about this...
Yeah, I'm almost done too Robbie. I'm wondering, at this point, if you realise how many contradictory statements you yourself have made. Lets just see huh:
- You say that you don't read or regard the OT, because it's obsolete and teaches mandates that oppose Jesus. But of course we see Jesus in the OT, just as we see the Father in the NT, and we also know that God does not change. Jesus says "whoever has seen me, has seen the Father"...
- You then said to someone else that what Jesus did/said before His crucifixion didn't count, because His death changed everything..
- But then you said that you only read the accounts of Jesus, not what comes after...
- You say you don't need scripture, but you quote it...
- and then you say you're only quoting it for the benefit of slack witted morons who don't have the Spirit.
Okay. Now I'm done.
WhiteKnuckle
New Member
- Mar 29, 2009
- 866
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Okay Okay Okay!
Robbie, I think you're being misunderstood. I'm wondering seriously if you're a visual thinker. If so, you're on a very very hard path trying to explain what you're saying. A great quote to use here is "It's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle.....".
Now, fellas, relax, take a break. Go have a poptart and take a long walk, maybe a jog, do a jigsaw puzzle, weave a basket, something!
Robbie, I think you're being misunderstood. I'm wondering seriously if you're a visual thinker. If so, you're on a very very hard path trying to explain what you're saying. A great quote to use here is "It's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle.....".
Now, fellas, relax, take a break. Go have a poptart and take a long walk, maybe a jog, do a jigsaw puzzle, weave a basket, something!
Robbie
New Member
You're a liar Rach... Show me where I said that what Jesus said before His death on the cross didn't count you liar... the Lord rebuke you... my belief is that the life of Jesus before dying on the cross is a perfect revelation of the Father and when He speaks it is God speaking... I would never say what you say I said... also I never said, "I'm equal to Christ'... He's the name above all other names... I'm nothing... so you bare false witness and make stuff up I never said... and I'm done with you already...
The side you're seeing of me is the side you've made up as you continue to bare false witness against me... I expect you to prove that I said that what Christ said before He died on the cross doesn't count or I expect a public apology from you or else the moderators need to deal with your false accusation... I'm over your lies...
The Lord seriously rebuke you...
The side you're seeing of me is the side you've made up as you continue to bare false witness against me... I expect you to prove that I said that what Christ said before He died on the cross doesn't count or I expect a public apology from you or else the moderators need to deal with your false accusation... I'm over your lies...
The Lord seriously rebuke you...
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