Why Revelation is Special

[David Boyer]

I marvel at those who can and do study and produce such works...but there is something lost in it, something much simpler that is all that is needed to know the truth.

If I need to know when it was written... I can wait till I see John in person and just ask him.
Yes I am curious about such things, but I'm patient about some things like that.

 

[Prim]

I don't care when it was written. And you really should announce your purpose in posting something. I don't read such long ramblings unless there is a reason to... and you don't provide any.

And yes Jesus is Lord.

You don’t care when it was written. David we should always care much about dates for they do matter very much. Truth7+7 post was much detailed and much interesting and not so much about rumbling at all : ) I’m still undecided on the date for the book of Revelation myself. What Truth7+7 says about the church fathers was most interesting though with other references he mentions like such scholars as Westcott & Hort that does leave much to be desired. Simply Because it’s well established that they were highly liberal and heretical in many of their beliefs. and as to the old age factor, well In ancient times you were thankful to see 50. So the question of how they viewed the beginning of old age could be more flexible when compared to today’s life span of where we live well into our 80’s when evaluating the commencement of Johns old age..Those be the only two things that I do query in Truth7+7’s post upon the first reading. The post be exemplary. But the dating of the bible be much more important than merely just the book of Revelations when concerning the bible and for more important reasons. Take our 4 gospels for example there be many modern scholars and critics that would like to have our gospel accounts moved and dated well into the 2nd century AD and well away from the eye witness period of 30-70 AD meaning that there be no real eye witness testimony for the gospels if they were written so late and so this could be purported as mere hear say and fables by the skeptics with a far later date. That be why dating it is so very historically important to counter such accusations.

 

[Enoch111]

Simple language is on my side.

As we note in other passages, the principle of not tampering with the text applies to the whole Bible. So what is stated in Revelation should be extended.

 

[David Boyer]

You don’t care when it was written. David we should always care much about dates for they do matter very much. Truth7+7 post was much detailed and much interesting and not so much about rumbling at all : ) I’m still undecided on the date for the book of Revelation myself. What Truth7+7 says about the church fathers was most interesting though with other references he mentions like such scholars as Westcott & Hort that does leave much to be desired. Simply Because it’s well established that they were highly liberal and heretical in many of their beliefs. and as to the old age factor, well In ancient times you were thankful to see 50. So the question of how they viewed the beginning of old age could be more flexible when compared to today’s life span of where we live well into our 80’s when evaluating the commencement of Johns old age..Those be the only two things that I do query in Truth7+7’s post upon the first reading. The post be exemplary. But the dating of the bible be much more important than merely just the book of Revelations when concerning the bible and for more important reasons. Take our 4 gospels for example there be many modern scholars and critics that would like to have our gospel accounts moved and dated well into the 2nd century AD and well away from the eye witness period of 30-70 AD meaning that there be no real eye witness testimony for the gospels if they were written so late and so this could be purported as mere hear say and fables by the skeptics with a far later date. That be why dating it is so very historically important to counter such accusations.

Dates don't matter.
Was Revelation written in the fall or summer?
Is not who wrote it more important?
Is not the content more important still?

 

[David Boyer]

As we note in other passages, the principle of not tampering with the text applies to the whole Bible. So what is stated in Revelation should be extended.

Show your work.
Also the wording in Revelation is specific to "the book of this prophecy". Not the book of any other prophecy. Not the book of any other teaching. Not to the book of any other history.
"The book of this prophecy" means the book of this prophecy.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't disagree with you. What exactly do you disagree with? God gave the Revelation to show His servants... but it was specially commanded. Rev 1:19.
Is there some other contradiction? Jesus commanded the book to be written... and it has a purpose to show what must happen.
Really, where do we disagree?

I’m sorry…maybe I misunderstood taking the below “it is not so much inspired by the Spirit” to mean you do not think it was inspired by the Spirit.

Jesus commanded Revelation to be written. It is not so much inspired by the Spirit... as it is actually commanded by Jesus to be written.

That was the part I stumbled over. That was why I thought we disagreed there and the reason for my asking about The Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him…which I take to mean as inspired by God, whom gave it to the Son to reveal to his servants. Example “My words are Spirit. They are Life.”

Note that understanding is not part of the blessing, so interpretation is not really a component of the blessing.

Ive read some of the post here, not all yet. What do you think is the blessing if it isn’t “understanding” or “interpretation”? To me that is what it seems to say in where Jesus Christ asked Peter “who am I?” Not who do others tell you that I am, but who do you say that I am, Peter?” At Peters answer significant to me is “blessed you are because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.” That whole passages seems to touch on “interpretation” or “understanding” of Peter…who I am? given by the Spirit of God, or given of man?

For example:
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches (is the Revelation inspired by the Spirit, where Paul spoke of not having received it of men but was taught it by the Revelation of Jesus Christ which the Father gave unto him to reveal?) ; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Another example:
Luke 10:22 which reminds me of “The Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him to show to his servants. “All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

No man knows who the Son is, except the Father.

Yet Peter was asked “who am I”
Peter knew.
because no man knows the Son, except the Father …what a blessing if you think about it. “Peter, no man knows the Son, except the Father. I mean no man Peter, not flesh and blood but the Father who knows the Son, He told you that I am the Son of God.” Or at least that is what I hear. Same as no man knows the Father, except the Son. Because if you have seen the Son …which no man knows except the Father…then you have seen the Father who the Son makes plain…flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.” First) My Father revealed to you that I am the Son of God. Second) because you see Me…you have seen you have seen the Father.


Over and over…blessed are you to hear God through the revealing of His Son. I’m not suggesting you disagree, only making my thoughts or input clearer…working through it also. It is interesting that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the only one that gives those who see and hear and understand the Revelation of the Son …a special blessing. Simply in this bitter, sometimes almost unbearable world…it is blessing to hear from God “This is My Son, hear Him.”

 

[David Boyer]

I’m sorry…maybe I misunderstood taking the below “it is not so much inspired by the Spirit” to mean you do not think it was inspired by the Spirit.


That was the part I stumbled over. That was why I thought we disagreed there and the reason for my asking about The Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him…which I take to mean as inspired by God, whom gave it to the Son to reveal to his servants. Example “My words are Spirit. They are Life.”



move read some of the post here, not all yet. What do you think is the blessing of it isn’t “understanding” or “interpretation”? To me that is what it seems to say in where Jesus Christ asked Peter “who am I?” Not who do others tell you that I am, but who do you say that I am, Peter?” At Peters answer significant to me is “bless you are because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.”

For example:
1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. [13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches (is the Revelation inspired by the Spirit, where Paul spoke of not having received it of men but was taught it by the Revelation of Jesus Christ?) ; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. [14] But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Another example:
Luke 10:22 which reminds me of “The Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him to show to his servants. “All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

No man knows who the Son is, except the Father.

Yet Peter was asked “who am I”
Peter knew.
because no man knows the Son, except the Father …what a blessing if you thing about it. “Peter, no man knows the Son, except the Father. I mean no man Peter, not flesh and blood but the Father who knows the Son, told you that I am the Son of God.” Or at least that is what I hear. Same as no man knows the Father, except the Son. Because if you have seen the Son …which no man knows except the Father…then you have seen the Father who the Son makes plain…flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven.” First) My Father revealed to you that I am the Son of God. Second) because you see Me…you have seen Him.


Over and over…blessed are you to hear God through the revealing of the Son. I’m it suggesting you disagree, only making my thoughts or input clearer…working through it also. It is interesting that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is the only one that gives those who see and hear and understand the Son …a special blessing. Simply in the bitter, sometimes almost unbearable world…it is blessing to hear from God “This is My Son, hear Him.”

The understand part is not in Revelation. Only read, hear and keep.
I understand that to mean... Read, Hear, and Keep(not alter) the book.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The understand part is not in Revelation. Only read, hear and keep.
I understand that to mean... Read, Hear, and Keep(not alter) the book.

Interesting you said “alter”
“alter” to me that means “to tamper with” or “to distort” or “changing the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:22-25

Can see why it would be so devastating to alter “the Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him to show to his servants” or to alter the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image in the likeness of corruptible man. “Uncorruptible” in itself sounds like “can not be altered” …

The Revelation of Jesus Christ… “to alter” the Revelation God gave unto him to reveal. Can it be altered I wonder when
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Or is the warning if one so fights against God, it will come to nothing.

 

[David Boyer]

Interesting you said “alter”
“alter” to me that means “to tamper with” or “to distort” or “changing the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
Romans 1:22-25

Can see why it would be so devastating to alter “the Revelation of Jesus Christ that God gave unto him to show to his servants”

The Revelation of Jesus Christ… “to alter” the Revelation God gave unto him to reveal. Can it be altered I wonder when
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Or is the warning if one so fights against God, it will come to nothing.

What are you talking about?
Try to just put a simple idea together and present that.

I said in my post that to keep the words of this book is to NOT alter the text.
Exegesis not Eisegesis.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What are you talking about?
Try to just put a simple idea together and present that.

I said in my post that to keep the words of this book is to NOT alter the text.
Exegesis not Eisegesis.

Does that mean words in a book only?

 

[David Boyer]

Does that mean words in a book only?

Rev 22:18-19 refer to the "words of the book of this prophecy".
Does that not mean only Revelation? Yes IMO.
If it referred to all scripture it would say all scripture.
If it referred to all prophecy it would say all prophecy.
But it says "the words of the book of this prophecy" and if I should not add or remove words then I can only conclude that Rev 22:18-19 is referring to Revelation alone.

 

[jeffweeder]

If I need to know when it was written... I can wait till I see John in person and just ask him.
Yes I am curious about such things, but I'm patient about some things like that.

If Rev was written before AD 70, then why didn't John address the Church in Jerusalem?

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions]. 3 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and who keep the things which are written in it [heeding them and taking them to heart]; for the time [of fulfillment] is near.
4 John, to the seven churches that are in [the province of] Asia:

 

[David Boyer]

If Rev was written before AD 70, then why didn't John address the Church in Jerusalem?

1 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ [His unveiling of the divine mysteries], which God [the Father] gave to Him to show to His bond-servants (believers) the things which must soon take place [in their entirety]; and He sent and communicated it by His angel (divine messenger) to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified and gave supporting evidence to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to everything that he saw [in his visions]. 3 Blessed (happy, prosperous, to be admired) is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and who keep the things which are written in it [heeding them and taking them to heart]; for the time [of fulfillment] is near.
4 John, to the seven churches that are in [the province of] Asia:

Why didn't John address the Church in Jerusalem? He wasn't commanded to.
That had nothing to do with when it was written.

 

[Prim]

Dates don't matter.
Was Revelation written in the fall or summer?
Is not who wrote it more important?
Is not the content more important still?

Dates don’t matter? Perhaps you right . A blind simple faith maybe all that’s that one needs. I’m sure God does look down with much fondness upon his special ones. : ) Dave may God continue to bless you in all things

 

[David Boyer]

Dates don’t matter? Perhaps you right . A blind simple faith maybe all that’s that one needs. I’m sure God does look down with much fondness upon his special ones. : ) Dave may God continue to bless you in all things

Dave's not here, man.
David is though.

What blind faith. I don't focus of the dates as terribly important. I have heard others defend the dates as early writings. I agree with their synopsis. I don't remember the details, but have been convinced of early dates for all the NT books. So I can disregard the dates of the books... as when a question arises about dates I can leave it to the experts.
Just because I don't care about when something was written doesn't mean I haven't looked into it.
I'm not a date nut. Content and context are my playground.
Because a person focus's on one area of study doesn't mean they disregard all other areas of study.

 

[Prim]

Dave's not here, man.
David is though.

What blind faith. I don't focus of the dates as terribly important. I have heard others defend the dates as early writings. I agree with their synopsis. I don't remember the details, but have been convinced of early dates for all the NT books. So I can disregard the dates of the books... as when a question arises about dates I can leave it to the experts.
Just because I don't care about when something was written doesn't mean I haven't looked into it.
I'm not a date nut. Content and context are my playground.
Because a person focus's on one area of study doesn't mean they disregard all other areas of study.

David What be blind faith. Some do say that we were never meant to know all things and probably could never know fully when looking upon our brief sojourn when compared to the fullness of history. Sometimes we not need to understand sometimes all we need to do is just to hold His hand. Anyway I am much glad that you have researched some and do have a opinion after all.

 

[Stan B]

Awesome... And I hope that your study doesn't try to interpret Revelation by using Daniel. Most end up trying to say "what John meant here was..." and that just says that either Jesus wasn't clear with John, or the Messengers of God were not clear, or John wasn't able to communicate clearly.
Or Jesus, the Angels, or John lied about what is in Revelation. Revelation is true... and all the OLDER prophecies add detail, but never change the details in Revelation.
(I hope that made sense.)

Bless.

An intelligent study of Revelation would of necessity include Daniel, Ezekiel and Matt 24.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Rev 22:18-19 refer to the "words of the book of this prophecy".
Does that not mean only Revelation? Yes IMO.
If it referred to all scripture it would say all scripture.
If it referred to all prophecy it would say all prophecy.
But it says "the words of the book of this prophecy" and if I should not add or remove words then I can only conclude that Rev 22:18-19 is referring to Revelation alone.

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


In relation to your topic on the Revelation of Jesus Christ being the only book with a special blessing. In verse 19 above… Do you think the book of Life and the Revelation of Jesus Christ are the same coming with a special blessing?

 

[David Boyer]

Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


In relation to your topic on the Revelation of Jesus Christ being the only book with a special blessing. In verse 19 above… Do you think the book of Life and the Revelation of Jesus Christ are the same coming with a special blessing?

The special blessing is in Rev 1:3
Rev 22:18+19 are the curse.

Your question doesn't make sense. You want me to compare two things (one of which is not even in the passage) in the light of what it is not.
You want me to comment on how a curse verse is referring to a blessing and to the "Revelation of Jesus Christ", a phrase not in the passage.
If this is a real question maybe you could flesh it out a bit for me.
What blessing do you see in 22:19?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What blessing do you see in 22:19?

I don’t see a blessing in 22:19. But was only considering in 22:19 being removed from the book of Life. So if there is a blessing in 22:19 it is the book of Life itself, which you don’t want to be removed from? If Revelation is the only book that has a blessing for him who reads, keeps … the result of not “keeping”
Is removal from the book of Life??then does the book of Life hold a special blessing, or is the book of Life which holds a blessing, the Revelation of the Lamb? For example John the Baptist when he witnessed “Behold the Lamb of God” not referring to himself, but unto Christ Jesus.


Luke 10:20-22 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. [21] In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hid these things (the Revelation of Jesus Christ???) from the wise and prudent, and has revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. [22] All things are delivered to me of my Father (again, The Revelation God gave to the Son to reveal) : and no man knows who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
^you may say it doesn’t fit, wrong or right it does fit to me. You asked…where do you see a blessing in that verse? I don’t, I see a taking out of the blessing of Life..which is the Revelation of Jesus Christ God gave to show his servants..