Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

[veteran]

veteran

you say i know very little about OT history. you maybe right that you are more knowledgeable then i am. but i only asked for where you got your sources from. i prefer to study the actual source over second hand knowledge. it is a proven fact that as information is passed from person to person that things get lost in the translation/explanation. so if you would like to convince me then please show me. if you cannot or won't then i have no choice but to think that you are mistaken in your thinking.

God bless

None of the information I have is of a private nature. The sources about the origins of the Pre-Wrath and Pre-Trib doctrines are out there as public knowledge, and so likewise with the prophecies for the latter days is within God's Word, including in the OT prophets. There's a whole lot written in the Old Testament Books that still have yet to come to pass, including in Genesis.

Many on the Preterist doctrines like to use the strategy you tried to use about my coverage of Ezekiel 13. They like to treat all the Old Testament Books as past history, as being specifically only to the peoples that lived in the times of the writers.

 

[John_8:32]

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Notice in verse 3 that Christ is not talking to all?

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The church goes to a place of safety (in the desert - look up the word for wilderness).

Now notice verses 16 and 17, some don't go (for whatever reasons)...

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

If you were going to be in the resurrection of 1 Cor 15 and 1 Ths 4, why would you run down the ladder and into the house to grab your suitcase? You wouldn't, you would rise in the air to meet Christ and be given a spirit body with spirit clothing. This is talking about something else, some reason you may want a change of underwear and your toothbrush...

Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Which brings us back to REv 12:16-17

 

[Trekson]

Vet, Your words: "The Pre-Wrath position is a modern invention." is one way to look at it. Another way would be to consider the words of Dan. 12:4 - "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."


Hi John, The problem with your view is that the "woman" of Rev. 12 is not the church. They will be the righteous remnant of Israel whose eyes are opened at the abomination of desolation. The church is found in vs. 17, the "rest of her offspring". This begins satan's wrath against the church which is the great trib and that is all the great trib is and it will conclude with the rapture of the church. Everything else normally allotted to it is either wrath, judgment or the Time of Jacob's trouble for Israel.

 

[7angels]

None of the information I have is of a private nature. The sources about the origins of the Pre-Wrath and Pre-Trib doctrines are out there as public knowledge, and so likewise with the prophecies for the latter days is within God's Word, including in the OT prophets. There's a whole lot written in the Old Testament Books that still have yet to come to pass, including in Genesis.

Many on the Preterist doctrines like to use the strategy you tried to use about my coverage of Ezekiel 13. They like to treat all the Old Testament Books as past history, as being specifically only to the peoples that lived in the times of the writers.

i will ask once more. please state a few sources you agree with so i know where you are coming from. or am i able to find any source and prove where they are wrong and you will stick with the source i found without saying anything against it. please decide.

God bless

 

[Graceismine]

Hi Grace, Your verses:
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

The highlighted phrase, "is come" is key to understanding this. The phrase is in the present/future tense which means it should read is "about" to come, not that it's been happening for years. The 5th seal martyrs also realize His wrath has not yet begun. Rev. 6:10 - " And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth."
There is nothing in scripture that implies the seals are part of the wrath of God and when you read all the scriptures about the "day of the Lord" that begins the "wrath of the Lamb", you'll recognize that the signs of the 6th seal parallel the accounts of the "signs" of its arrival.

I'm not sure what you meant by this: " complete ignoring of the Scripture which calls the wrath of God the wrath of Satan."

But for the record I don't believe the seals are the wrath of satan, if that's what you were implying.

I understand that Pre Wrath interpretation rises and falls mainly on the words “is come”. However it is just an interpretation because whenever I read it, it says to me as if I was to say, “ guys it’s come”. So if it is come, it is come not it’s coming.

Strongs says that the verb is used in the present tense which doesn’t say future to me.

I don’t use the NIV Bible but as I just checked it online it says that the wrath HAS come saying that it has already started.

Rev 6:10 reveals the impatience of those who have already been slain during the wrath poured out so far. They have been told that it is not finished yet, they must wait a little longer.

I apologise for the inference as I lumped you in with other views on the wrath being, if it isn’t the wrath of God it must be the wrath of Satan.

The “Day of the Lord is spoken of in OT as hiding among the rocks
"And men shall enter the caves of the rocks and the holes of the ground, from before the terror of the LORD, and from the glory of his majesty, when he rises to terrify the earth. In that day men will cast forth their idols of silver and their idols of gold, which they made for themselves to worship, to the moles and to the bats, to enter the caverns of the rocks and the clefts of the cliffs, from before the terror of the LORD, and from the glory of his majesty, when he rises to terrify the earth. Turn away from man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he?" (Isaiah 2:10:22)

To me it appears that Marvin Rosenthal lost his love for the “blessed hope” and he has been very successful in spreading this new teaching throughout the church.

As long as the Scripture calls these seals “wrath” at whatever stage in the Tribulation they appear I cannot accept that we would go through it when it clearly says, 1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Grace, Your words: "However it is just an interpretation because whenever I read it, it says to me as if I was to say, “ guys it’s come”. So if it is come, it is come not it’s coming."

To use your example, if folks are standing around saying, it's come, that means, imo, it has just arrived which is what the signs of the 6th seal portrays. It's not until after the sign of the 6th seal do they seek to a place to hide. In the Is. verse you quoted it says, "from before the terror of the LORD, and from the glory of his majesty, when he rises to terrify the earth." You need to understand that "He rises" at the 7th seal, first trumpet, not way back in the first seal. The signs are well known that herald the beginning of the day of the Lord and they are the signs of the 6th seal, not some signless event before the first seal.

The "blessed hope" is the fact of His return, not the timing of it. This isn't some "new" theory. It's a reaffirmation of what the early church fathers believed. They believed the rapture would occur after the persecution of the church by the a/c. For clarification purposes, the seals aren't anybody's wrath, they're the result of man's folly and sort of a countdown to the wrath. The wrath of the Lamb is what is contained in the sealed scroll, according to pre-wrath, thus the wrath can't begin until the 7th and final seal is opened. The trumpet judgments are the wrath of the Lamb that "is come" in Rev. 6. They are followed by the wrath of God in the vial judgments. There is a wrath of satan and that is the great trib. The great trib is satan's wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17. When one understands the timing of the events within the context of the 70th week, all things become much clearer.

 

[Graceismine]

Veteran said:

The Pre-Wrath position is a modern invention, so is the Pre-Trib position too if one considers that it only began since the 1800's. This is why the Pre-Wrath rapture doctrine has so much alliance with ideas of the Pre-Trib rapture, because those like Rosenthal and et al came from the Pre-Trib schools.

"In 150, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
In 270 Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader preached it.
In 350 Ephraim the Syrian
In 400, Jerome in the Latin vulgate
Then there were the thousand years called the "dark ages", and then it came back.

In 1304, Reverend Dolcino proclaimed the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1400 Bible translations in the native tongues led to a new propagation of the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1627, Joseph Mede
1627 Increase Mather
1687, Peter Jurieu
1700 John Asgill
1738, Philip Doddridge
1748 John Gill
1763, James McKnight
1744, Morgan Edwards
1792, Thomas Scott
And then in 1830, John Darby

Hi Grace, Your words: "However it is just an interpretation because whenever I read it, it says to me as if I was to say, “ guys it’s come”. So if it is come, it is come not it’s coming."

To use your example, if folks are standing around saying, it's come, that means, imo, it has just arrived which is what the signs of the 6th seal portrays. It's not until after the sign of the 6th seal do they seek to a place to hide. In the Is. verse you quoted it says, "from before the terror of the LORD, and from the glory of his majesty, when he rises to terrify the earth." You need to understand that "He rises" at the 7th seal, first trumpet, not way back in the first seal. The signs are well known that herald the beginning of the day of the Lord and they are the signs of the 6th seal, not some signless event before the first seal.

The "blessed hope" is the fact of His return, not the timing of it. This isn't some "new" theory. It's a reaffirmation of what the early church fathers believed. They believed the rapture would occur after the persecution of the church by the a/c. For clarification purposes, the seals aren't anybody's wrath, they're the result of man's folly and sort of a countdown to the wrath. The wrath of the Lamb is what is contained in the sealed scroll, according to pre-wrath, thus the wrath can't begin until the 7th and final seal is opened. The trumpet judgments are the wrath of the Lamb that "is come" in Rev. 6. They are followed by the wrath of God in the vial judgments. There is a wrath of satan and that is the great trib. The great trib is satan's wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17. When one understands the timing of the events within the context of the 70th week, all things become much clearer.

Trekson, wouldn't they have to go through it to know it had arrived? I would think that they seek a place to hide because the seals became graver in intensity. It finally dawned on them that they should try to hide from all of this cataclysm that has befallen them.

Are you saying that the opening of the 6 seals are signs not wrath? Problem with wrath in the final seal does not explain why the Lamb opened each seal individually.

Rev 6:8 is more than just a sign, according to Pre Wrath the church will be killed not only by sword and famine but by wild beasts. That is not the church seeing the signs that is the church going through horrific things.

Rev 6:9 Who are the souls under the altar crying out for mercy? The Church??? Nope the Church already has white robes, she does not need to suffer to get them.

Rev 6:12-14 . What you allude to as signs is actually the Day of the Lord. It has already begun.

Joe 2:10 Before them the earth shakes, the sky trembles, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.
Joe 2:11 The LORD thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty are those who obey his command. The day of the LORD is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

Where else in Scripture does it refer to the plagues, famines, killing by Antichrist, thunder, earthquake etc. as signs of what is to come?


Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

In your opinion why would the church have to be tested amongst the sinners?

I appreciate your clear and friendly reply.

 

[veteran]

Vet, Your words: "The Pre-Wrath position is a modern invention." is one way to look at it. Another way would be to consider the words of Dan. 12:4 - "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

While I well recognize that many end time prophecies would not be fully understood until the time of the end like the Book of Daniel points to, that never meant inability of the early Church to understand the written prophecy itself.

The difference between their days and our days is that they did not have the same examples of the kind of times we're in today, which is what led them to misapply some of the endtime prophecies in their era, i.e. like a pope being the antichrist figure for the dragon and man of sin, while our era has Judah returning to the holy lands to become a nation state again, and preparation to build a third temple, etc. The early Church was post-trib because that's the only way the Scriptures point, and the Scriptures have not changed one iota since their days (unless one wants to bring in the debate of newer modern Bible translations they did not use into that argument).

i will ask once more. please state a few sources you agree with so i know where you are coming from. or am i able to find any source and prove where they are wrong and you will stick with the source i found without saying anything against it. please decide.

God bless

What you're asking for is moot, since the Pre-Wrath and Pre-Trib positions are well written of in a variety of websites, literature and books. You'd be asking me to list too many sources for that when you can easily go research it for yourself. You could start with resources such as this...

http://prewrathrapture.com/2005/11/the_prewrath_rapture_1.php

I agree with how the early Church held to a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering, which is what most of them pointed to. They did not use that term post-tribulation, but they believed the tribulation and reign of the Antichrist ends... with Christ's coming and our gathering, and that's what the Scriptures show. If you want to debate those points with those Pre-Wrath folks, feel free. But if you try to fit me in the seminary categories of men you will fail, because none... of them follow the Scriptures about these events precisely. By that I mean even the post-trib school does not recognize the order of the seals, trumpets, and vials as being parallel like the Scripture reveals.

Veteran said:



"In 150, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
In 270 Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader preached it.
In 350 Ephraim the Syrian
In 400, Jerome in the Latin vulgate
Then there were the thousand years called the "dark ages", and then it came back.

In 1304, Reverend Dolcino proclaimed the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1400 Bible translations in the native tongues led to a new propagation of the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1627, Joseph Mede
1627 Increase Mather
1687, Peter Jurieu
1700 John Asgill
1738, Philip Doddridge
1748 John Gill
1763, James McKnight
1744, Morgan Edwards
1792, Thomas Scott
And then in 1830, John Darby

There has been a lot of Revisionism going on with the Pre-trib school, even with trying to turn what many of the early Church fathers said into the idea.

http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html

 

[Graceismine]

While I well recognize that many end time prophecies would not be fully understood until the time of the end like the Book of Daniel points to, that never meant inability of the early Church to understand the written prophecy itself.

The difference between their days and our days is that they did not have the same examples of the kind of times we're in today, which is what led them to misapply some of the endtime prophecies in their era, i.e. like a pope being the antichrist figure for the dragon and man of sin, while our era has Judah returning to the holy lands to become a nation state again, and preparation to build a third temple, etc. The early Church was post-trib because that's the only way the Scriptures point, and the Scriptures have not changed one iota since their days (unless one wants to bring in the debate of newer modern Bible translations they did not use into that argument).



What you're asking for is moot, since the Pre-Wrath and Pre-Trib positions are well written of in a variety of websites, literature and books. You'd be asking me to list too many sources for that when you can easily go research it for yourself. You could start with resources such as this...

http://prewrathrapture.com/2005/11/the_prewrath_rapture_1.php

I agree with how the early Church held to a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering, which is what most of them pointed to. They did not use that term post-tribulation, but they believed the tribulation and reign of the Antichrist ends... with Christ's coming and our gathering, and that's what the Scriptures show. If you want to debate those points with those Pre-Wrath folks, feel free. But if you try to fit me in the seminary categories of men you will fail, because none... of them follow the Scriptures about these events precisely. By that I mean even the post-trib school does not recognize the order of the seals, trumpets, and vials as being parallel like the Scripture reveals.



There has been a lot of Revisionism going on with the Pre-trib school, even with trying to turn what many of the early Church fathers said into the idea.

http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html

There is always an answer :lol:

 

[veteran]

There is always an answer :lol:

Yes, and you should not mock that there is always an answer, that is, for those who sincerely want to know God's Truth in His Word.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Grace, Your question: “Trekson, wouldn't they have to go through it to know it had arrived?”

Not really, If the church has been doing it’s job then the world would be informed by us of what those cataclysmic signs would be and while they may have joked and doubted, when those signs occur, the natural reaction to their previous skepticism would be fear.

Your words: “I would think that they seek a place to hide because the seals became graver in intensity. It finally dawned on them that they should try to hide from all of this cataclysm that has befallen them.”

According to scripture their reaction is directly related to the signs of the 6th seal, not all the events that have happened previously.

Your words: “Are you saying that the opening of the 6 seals are signs not wrath? Problem with wrath in the final seal does not explain why the Lamb opened each seal individually.”…Where else in Scripture does it refer to the plagues, famines, killing by Antichrist, thunder, earthquake etc. as signs of what is to come?”

Yes, they are the signs that the church was forewarned about in the Olivet Discourse.In Matt. 24:3, the disciples ask this question, "...What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" The word "coming" here, is the Greek word parousia. This term is also used in Matt. 24:27, 1 Thess. 4:15, and 2 Thess. 2:1. When used in these instances it is not a verb speaking of a movement but it‘s a noun speaking of an event. Two other Greek words are used to denote coming. The word heko means a person’s presence as in Rev. 2:25 and erchoma, which is a person‘s movement as in Matt. 24:30. The sign will be explained later on.

The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke parallel Rev.6 with amazing accuracy. Consider these scriptures:
False Christs

Matt. 24:4-5 Mark 13:5-6 Luke 21:8 Rev. 6:1-2
This is the first seal. The rider on the white horse signifies the false religion personified by the Anti-Christ who conquers by deception. Dan. 7:20 in various translations describe him as one "whose look was more stout" and possessing a "fierce countenance". In all he will be an imposing figure. Definitely not someone you would want to cross, but cross him we shall. There is one area in which he will differ from Christ. His spokesman, the false prophet, will come after him and will build him up, much like an athlete’s/actor‘s agent does. A type of John the Baptist but after the fact and not before.
Wars/rumors of wars

Matt. 24:6-7a Mark 13:7-8a Luke 21:9-10 Rev. 6:3-4
This is the second seal. The rider on the red horse signifies the power to conquer with a sword and to take peace from the earth.

Famines:
Matt. 24:7b Mark 13:8b Luke 21:11a Rev. 6:5-6
This is the third seal. The rider on the black horse brings famine. This could be the false prophet because it speaks of things financial in the midst of famine

Pestilence & earthquakes:
Matt. 24:7c Mark 13:8c Luke 21:11 Rev.6:7-8
This is the fourth seal. The rider on pale horse signifies death and pestilence. This probably signifies Satan when he is cast out of heaven in Rev. 12:9. He is followed closely by Hades/Hell which could be considered the home for the destruction of the soul. And who brings destruction, the Destroyer which is what the names Abaddon & Apollyon mean in Rev. 9:11. All these things are the beginning of sorrows, and the birth pangs but not the wrath of God. This most likely occurs prior to the mid-point of Daniel‘s 70th week and before the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Other events that may occur around this time are the arrival of the two witnesses (Rev.11), the A/C sitting on the throne and demanding to be worshiped as well as the erection of his image found "standing" in the holy place. This is pictured in Matt. 24:15, Mark 13:14, and Rev. 12:13, 13: 6 & 14-15. But wait, the comparison doesn’t end here as a lot of folks would like it to.

Martyrdom
Matt. 24:9-28 Mark 13:9-23 Luke 21:12-13-24 Rev. 6:9-11
The fifth seal portrays the partial results of the time known as the Great Tribulation where believers will be martyred because of the word of God and the testimony they maintained. This is also shown in Rev. 12:11 & 17, 13:7-10 & 15 and 14:12-13. The martyrs are told that judgment won‘t begin until the appointed number of martyred dead has been reached. If a pre-trib rapture had occurred, this would be considered part of God‘s wrath but this scripture clearly shows that this is a separate time from judgment. In verse 10, the phrase "the inhabitants of the earth" is used ("those who dwell on the earth" in the KJV). This phrase is used consistently throughout Revelations to signify those that support Satan & a/c and oppose God and his elect who are still on earth at this time.

Cosmic Disturbances
Matt. 24:29 Mark 13:24-25 Luke 21:25 Rev. 6: 12-13
The sixth seal is evidenced by much cosmic disturbance and signs in the sun, moon and stars. This is the sign spoken of back in Matt. 24:3. When we see these signs in the heavens, Luke 21:28, tells us to, ..."stand up and lift up our heads because our redemption is drawing near."
Now it is just after this point in time where a couple of events happen almost at once at the opening of the seventh seal. In Rev. 6:17 it says, "For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand." This should utilize the aorist tense. The literal translation of "has come" is "the day of their wrath began to come." Also known as the Day of the Lord, the arrival is described in Joel 2:28-32, Is. 13:6-10 and Zep. 1:14-18. The most important event occurring at this time is the rapture of the saints as pictured in: Matt. 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, Luke 21:27-28, Rev. 7:9, 14:14-16.

　
　
Your words: “
Rev 6:8 is more than just a sign, according to Pre Wrath the church will be killed not only by sword and famine but by wild beasts. That is not the church seeing the signs that is the church going through horrific things.”

The church has always gone through horrific things. Remember all the hardships the church went through in the first couple of centuries? Have you ever read Foxes Book of Martyr’s? Christians have been killed and persecuted since it began and intensified greatly in the 20th century. The only difference is, it will come on a much larger scale. Regarding specifically Rev. 6:8, individuals in the church, except for a few miraculous times, have never been spared what the rest of the world endures. We’ve had the Civil War, WW1, WW2, etc., each of those events had their own preachers foretelling “the end is near!”

Your words: “Who are the souls under the altar crying out for mercy? The Church??? Nope the Church already has white robes, she does not need to suffer to get them.”

Just because the church doesn’t “need” to suffer, doesn’t mean we won’t. The bible is full of verses speaking of trials, tribulations, sufferings, being purified through fire, etc. If our faith isn’t tested in times of hardship, it won’t grow.

Your words: “What you allude to as signs is actually the Day of the Lord. It has already begun.”

I disagree, it’s a day of wrath and the seals aren’t wrath, imo.

Your words: “Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. In your opinion why would the church have to be tested amongst the sinners?”

Sincere christians who hold to the pre-tribulation rapture theory often cite this verse, among others, as "proof" that their eschatology is correct. They focus on the second part, ..."I will also keep you from the hour of trial...", meaning they expect to raptured, but ignore the first part of this verse, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently...". This verse has a cause and effect relationship. Since you have done this, I will do that. How does one endure patiently and what does it involve? Here are a couple of other references that will give us a clue to what Jesus is telling us. Col. 1:11, "...so that you may have great endurance and patience...", James 1: 3, "... the trying of your faith worketh patience" (KJV) and James 5:10, "Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering..."

The word patience in these verses conveys the idea of "endurance in the midst of adversity." This idea can also be found in the prophetic scriptures of Luke 21:16-19, 2 Thess. 1:4, Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12. One can not assume that because some christians in other parts of the world are being martyred and others are going through various trials of sickness, loss of loved ones, minor persecutions, etc. that these qualify what this verse is talking about. They don't! We have had these problems since the day of Christ's Ascension and will continue to have them. This verse is talking about events that will affect all christians around the world, as the "hour of trial" will affect the whole world.

The word temptation as used in the KJV of this verse, means a time of testing separate from the Day of the Lord's Wrath. His wrath is for those who failed the test! The test is the Great Tribulation, that short time in the midst of Daniel's 70th week that consists of Satan's wrath against and persecution of the church. Those who "keep the word of His patience" (KJV) are those still living believers who will overcome the difficulties of the first 3 1/2 yrs. and the great trib that follows.
　

 

[7angels]

While I well recognize that many end time prophecies would not be fully understood until the time of the end like the Book of Daniel points to, that never meant inability of the early Church to understand the written prophecy itself.

The difference between their days and our days is that they did not have the same examples of the kind of times we're in today, which is what led them to misapply some of the endtime prophecies in their era, i.e. like a pope being the antichrist figure for the dragon and man of sin, while our era has Judah returning to the holy lands to become a nation state again, and preparation to build a third temple, etc. The early Church was post-trib because that's the only way the Scriptures point, and the Scriptures have not changed one iota since their days (unless one wants to bring in the debate of newer modern Bible translations they did not use into that argument).



What you're asking for is moot, since the Pre-Wrath and Pre-Trib positions are well written of in a variety of websites, literature and books. You'd be asking me to list too many sources for that when you can easily go research it for yourself. You could start with resources such as this...

http://prewrathrapture.com/2005/11/the_prewrath_rapture_1.php

I agree with how the early Church held to a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus and our gathering, which is what most of them pointed to. They did not use that term post-tribulation, but they believed the tribulation and reign of the Antichrist ends... with Christ's coming and our gathering, and that's what the Scriptures show. If you want to debate those points with those Pre-Wrath folks, feel free. But if you try to fit me in the seminary categories of men you will fail, because none... of them follow the Scriptures about these events precisely. By that I mean even the post-trib school does not recognize the order of the seals, trumpets, and vials as being parallel like the Scripture reveals.



There has been a lot of Revisionism going on with the Pre-trib school, even with trying to turn what many of the early Church fathers said into the idea.

http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html

the things in bold print is what i will talk about. i asked you to show me sources to prove your point and you say i can choose one of many different sources. you even posted a source that i was thankful for but then in your next paragraph you say and i quote "But if you try to fit me in the seminary categories of men you will fail, because none... of them follow the Scriptures about these events precisely. By that I mean even the post-trib school does not recognize the order of the seals, trumpets, and vials as being parallel like the Scripture reveals." by your own words you have just stated that you are the only one with the correct interpretation of God's word. this goes against the teachings of the word of God. there is no reason to refute your arguments when you teaching contrary to the word of God. if you do this in one area of the word of God you more then likely do it in other areas as well.

God bless

 

[veteran]

the things in bold print is what i will talk about. i asked you to show me sources to prove your point and you say i can choose one of many different sources. you even posted a source that i was thankful for but then in your next paragraph you say and i quote "But if you try to fit me in the seminary categories of men you will fail, because none... of them follow the Scriptures about these events precisely. By that I mean even the post-trib school does not recognize the order of the seals, trumpets, and vials as being parallel like the Scripture reveals." by your own words you have just stated that you are the only one with the correct interpretation of God's word. this goes against the teachings of the word of God. there is no reason to refute your arguments when you teaching contrary to the word of God. if you do this in one area of the word of God you more then likely do it in other areas as well.

God bless

No, you're taking that attitude simply because you're not interested in trying to understand, but instead in trying to discredit.

I certainly am NOT... the only believer on Christ Jesus that is Post-Trib that sees the seven seals, trumpets, and vials in parallel, especially with the 7th trumpet, 7th vial, and 6th & 7th seals.

If you think you can prove me wrong in that, why not man-up and try to do it properly within The Word of God, instead of just with mocking words??

I'm ready when you are.

 

[7angels]

if you are a post tribber but don't agree with the post trib ideas then what are you standing upon? you cannot post references that you actually agree with as if you alone have the true revelation. especially since no one can confirm 100% when the rapture will take place. discussing the rapture is not worth it if this turns into a debate. i know you too well to think it won't turn into a debate. which is why i am not getting into this discussion with you. i am just here to point out mistakes in what is posted.

btw i am not trying to mock you but to get you to think.

God bless

 

[veteran]

if you are a post tribber but don't agree with the post trib ideas then what are you standing upon? you cannot post references that you actually agree with as if you alone have the true revelation. especially since no one can confirm 100% when the rapture will take place. discussing the rapture is not worth it if this turns into a debate. i know you too well to think it won't turn into a debate. which is why i am not getting into this discussion with you. i am just here to point out mistakes in what is posted.

btw i am not trying to mock you but to get you to think.

God bless

Surely if you yourself hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrines, you don't believe every single idea coming out of those seminaries, do you? Many of ideas in the seminaries change like the weather, always upgrading, modifying their doctrines.

The Post-trib Rapture view of today is a whole lot closer to the Pre-Wrath Rapture school, which I do not adhere to. I believe those in Christ who remain on earth to His coming are 'changed' like Apostle Paul said and seized to Jerusalem where our Lord is returning. Lot of Post-tribbers believe we're going to rapture off to Heaven while the battle of Armageddon takes place, some holding to a return with Jesus for the battle of Armageddon. I do not see that bouncing ball doctrine.

No, you're trying to mock alright, simply because you began a personal attack against me with your false claims about interpretation. And the only reason you've done that is to try and attack my credibility in God's Word, even WITHOUT going into God's Word yourself! What you've shown is a hypocritical attitude.

And furthermore, you claim you're not interested in a Scripture debate, yet that is all you're wanting to do here with me, and without any substance!

 

[7angels]

i can list references and sources that i 100% agree with. you are right there are some i don't agree with but you cannot list even one you agree with. the source you did list you said you don't believe everything they posted. that makes it hard to see where a person is coming from and makes it ridiculous to even try without solid evidence. this is exactly what science does to prove their points against creation.

as for mocking you i was not. the word teaches that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. i hope if i was wrong in an area that someone would tell me but not argue with me. since that is one thing i expect from others i do the same thing to others. if it bothers you then don't get defensive but just tell me to stop and you do likewise. i am sure we can agree to not agree with each other's views.

God bless

 

[veteran]

i can list references and sources that i 100% agree with. you are right there are some i don't agree with but you cannot list even one you agree with. the source you did list you said you don't believe everything they posted. that makes it hard to see where a person is coming from and makes it ridiculous to even try without solid evidence. this is exactly what science does to prove their points against creation.

I think we hear enough seminary doctrines right here on forums like this one, so I don't care to get into silly debates over what the religious seminaries of men create and follow.

What I'm interested in is keeping to what God's Word says as written. If that agrees with their seminary doctrines fine, if it does not agree with all their doctrines, then you have already admitted above there's "some" you don't agree with, so let's stop playing seminary games as if they were the authors of God's Word when they are not. And that includes your false claim that I cannot list even one doctrine they have that I agree with, which you well know in your own heart is not true.

as for mocking you i was not. the word teaches that we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. i hope if i was wrong in an area that someone would tell me but not argue with me. since that is one thing i expect from others i do the same thing to others. if it bothers you then don't get defensive but just tell me to stop and you do likewise. i am sure we can agree to not agree with each other's views.

God bless

Maybe some people on this forum really don't know what they're saying some of the time? I mean, you just made a false claim in your first paragraph that I cannot list one seminary doctrine that I agree with, which of course is a false statement. And then your next paragraph you claim you haven't been mocking.

I have been honest with you all along. You don't have to agree with my coverage in God's Word. But when you have the kind of attitude you've been having, then how do think I should react? How do you think I should react to your false claim that I cannot list any seminary doctrine that I agree with, especially after I've already told that I believe in a post-tribulational coming of our Lord Jesus and gathering of His Church?

 

[tgwprophet]

Why should the church endure the Great Trib?

It rains on the just and the unjust alike. Take this further... IF the Chruch... all those Christians... the entire Church was taken before the Great Tribulation would it not send a message to the rest of the world that God really exists and who is the True God? when you do this you also take away free will. the intregrity of Free Will must be maintained or people with no belief in God would accept soley for self preservation. This is but a slight portion I think.

I consider that if the calamities of Tribulations was as "world-wide" as per each event as many seem to believe, that the turmoil would be so great as to even prevent Tribulation from going forward. Now if these events were limited to certain areas and not so world-wide then these events could be secularly considered as not being Biblical and explained away. For many of these events to be so profound as to only being able to be described as Biblical could mean a transformation leading in a direction away from the Satanic path as prophecied in God's Word. One of these diverse paths is the elimination or severe hinderance of Free Will by profound propheccy event(s).

In contrast to this is God's Word after an event, exclaiming :"And they will know I am God" - not verbatium. so tothis i would say there must be a perfect balance.. controlled by God to ensure these things occur just so. NOTE: I am glad that I am NOT God and I cannot understandd why Satan wwould want to be. Does Satan really understand the responsibility God undertakes, when one considers the LOVE God has for us?

Will there be "order" in Hell and so Satan will obtain status? Or will Hell be total chaos?

7angels wrote: " i am sure we can agree to not agree with each other's views. "
There are allot of cliches that have made their way even into courtrooms as being wisdom.. then truth, many of these I totally dis-agree with and this is one of them, for it is not a path to truth in understanding as one is always left in the worng, or botth.
another... " Life is unfair " - actually... life is fair...peeople are not
yet another... " He is just using me " - friends and family use one another it is a good thing... when one abuses another that is a bad thing. Be aware of these cliches being used as wisdom for acceptance of un-wise cliches leads to bad wisdom.

 

[Graceismine]

Hi Grace, Your question: “Trekson, wouldn't they have to go through it to know it had arrived?”

Not really, If the church has been doing it’s job then the world would be informed by us of what those cataclysmic signs would be and while they may have joked and doubted, when those signs occur, the natural reaction to their previous skepticism would be fear.

Your words: “I would think that they seek a place to hide because the seals became graver in intensity. It finally dawned on them that they should try to hide from all of this cataclysm that has befallen them.”

According to scripture their reaction is directly related to the signs of the 6th seal, not all the events that have happened previously.

Your words: “Are you saying that the opening of the 6 seals are signs not wrath? Problem with wrath in the final seal does not explain why the Lamb opened each seal individually.”…Where else in Scripture does it refer to the plagues, famines, killing by Antichrist, thunder, earthquake etc. as signs of what is to come?”

Yes, they are the signs that the church was forewarned about in the Olivet Discourse.In Matt. 24:3, the disciples ask this question, "...What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" The word "coming" here, is the Greek word parousia. This term is also used in Matt. 24:27, 1 Thess. 4:15, and 2 Thess. 2:1. When used in these instances it is not a verb speaking of a movement but it‘s a noun speaking of an event. Two other Greek words are used to denote coming. The word heko means a person’s presence as in Rev. 2:25 and erchoma, which is a person‘s movement as in Matt. 24:30. The sign will be explained later on.

The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke parallel Rev.6 with amazing accuracy. Consider these scriptures:
False Christs

Matt. 24:4-5 Mark 13:5-6 Luke 21:8 Rev. 6:1-2
This is the first seal. The rider on the white horse signifies the false religion personified by the Anti-Christ who conquers by deception. Dan. 7:20 in various translations describe him as one "whose look was more stout" and possessing a "fierce countenance". In all he will be an imposing figure. Definitely not someone you would want to cross, but cross him we shall. There is one area in which he will differ from Christ. His spokesman, the false prophet, will come after him and will build him up, much like an athlete’s/actor‘s agent does. A type of John the Baptist but after the fact and not before.
Wars/rumors of wars

Matt. 24:6-7a Mark 13:7-8a Luke 21:9-10 Rev. 6:3-4
This is the second seal. The rider on the red horse signifies the power to conquer with a sword and to take peace from the earth.

Famines:
Matt. 24:7b Mark 13:8b Luke 21:11a Rev. 6:5-6
This is the third seal. The rider on the black horse brings famine. This could be the false prophet because it speaks of things financial in the midst of famine

Pestilence & earthquakes:
Matt. 24:7c Mark 13:8c Luke 21:11 Rev.6:7-8
This is the fourth seal. The rider on pale horse signifies death and pestilence. This probably signifies Satan when he is cast out of heaven in Rev. 12:9. He is followed closely by Hades/Hell which could be considered the home for the destruction of the soul. And who brings destruction, the Destroyer which is what the names Abaddon & Apollyon mean in Rev. 9:11. All these things are the beginning of sorrows, and the birth pangs but not the wrath of God. This most likely occurs prior to the mid-point of Daniel‘s 70th week and before the beginning of the Great Tribulation. Other events that may occur around this time are the arrival of the two witnesses (Rev.11), the A/C sitting on the throne and demanding to be worshiped as well as the erection of his image found "standing" in the holy place. This is pictured in Matt. 24:15, Mark 13:14, and Rev. 12:13, 13: 6 & 14-15. But wait, the comparison doesn’t end here as a lot of folks would like it to.

Martyrdom
Matt. 24:9-28 Mark 13:9-23 Luke 21:12-13-24 Rev. 6:9-11
The fifth seal portrays the partial results of the time known as the Great Tribulation where believers will be martyred because of the word of God and the testimony they maintained. This is also shown in Rev. 12:11 & 17, 13:7-10 & 15 and 14:12-13. The martyrs are told that judgment won‘t begin until the appointed number of martyred dead has been reached. If a pre-trib rapture had occurred, this would be considered part of God‘s wrath but this scripture clearly shows that this is a separate time from judgment. In verse 10, the phrase "the inhabitants of the earth" is used ("those who dwell on the earth" in the KJV). This phrase is used consistently throughout Revelations to signify those that support Satan & a/c and oppose God and his elect who are still on earth at this time.

Cosmic Disturbances
Matt. 24:29 Mark 13:24-25 Luke 21:25 Rev. 6: 12-13
The sixth seal is evidenced by much cosmic disturbance and signs in the sun, moon and stars. This is the sign spoken of back in Matt. 24:3. When we see these signs in the heavens, Luke 21:28, tells us to, ..."stand up and lift up our heads because our redemption is drawing near."
Now it is just after this point in time where a couple of events happen almost at once at the opening of the seventh seal. In Rev. 6:17 it says, "For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand." This should utilize the aorist tense. The literal translation of "has come" is "the day of their wrath began to come." Also known as the Day of the Lord, the arrival is described in Joel 2:28-32, Is. 13:6-10 and Zep. 1:14-18. The most important event occurring at this time is the rapture of the saints as pictured in: Matt. 24:30-31, Mark 13:26-27, Luke 21:27-28, Rev. 7:9, 14:14-16.

　
　
Your words: “
Rev 6:8 is more than just a sign, according to Pre Wrath the church will be killed not only by sword and famine but by wild beasts. That is not the church seeing the signs that is the church going through horrific things.”

The church has always gone through horrific things. Remember all the hardships the church went through in the first couple of centuries? Have you ever read Foxes Book of Martyr’s? Christians have been killed and persecuted since it began and intensified greatly in the 20th century. The only difference is, it will come on a much larger scale. Regarding specifically Rev. 6:8, individuals in the church, except for a few miraculous times, have never been spared what the rest of the world endures. We’ve had the Civil War, WW1, WW2, etc., each of those events had their own preachers foretelling “the end is near!”

Your words: “Who are the souls under the altar crying out for mercy? The Church??? Nope the Church already has white robes, she does not need to suffer to get them.”

Just because the church doesn’t “need” to suffer, doesn’t mean we won’t. The bible is full of verses speaking of trials, tribulations, sufferings, being purified through fire, etc. If our faith isn’t tested in times of hardship, it won’t grow.

Your words: “What you allude to as signs is actually the Day of the Lord. It has already begun.”

I disagree, it’s a day of wrath and the seals aren’t wrath, imo.

Your words: “Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. In your opinion why would the church have to be tested amongst the sinners?”

Sincere christians who hold to the pre-tribulation rapture theory often cite this verse, among others, as "proof" that their eschatology is correct. They focus on the second part, ..."I will also keep you from the hour of trial...", meaning they expect to raptured, but ignore the first part of this verse, "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently...". This verse has a cause and effect relationship. Since you have done this, I will do that. How does one endure patiently and what does it involve? Here are a couple of other references that will give us a clue to what Jesus is telling us. Col. 1:11, "...so that you may have great endurance and patience...", James 1: 3, "... the trying of your faith worketh patience" (KJV) and James 5:10, "Brothers, as an example of patience in the face of suffering..."

The word patience in these verses conveys the idea of "endurance in the midst of adversity." This idea can also be found in the prophetic scriptures of Luke 21:16-19, 2 Thess. 1:4, Rev. 13:10 and Rev. 14:12. One can not assume that because some christians in other parts of the world are being martyred and others are going through various trials of sickness, loss of loved ones, minor persecutions, etc. that these qualify what this verse is talking about. They don't! We have had these problems since the day of Christ's Ascension and will continue to have them. This verse is talking about events that will affect all christians around the world, as the "hour of trial" will affect the whole world.

The word temptation as used in the KJV of this verse, means a time of testing separate from the Day of the Lord's Wrath. His wrath is for those who failed the test! The test is the Great Tribulation, that short time in the midst of Daniel's 70th week that consists of Satan's wrath against and persecution of the church. Those who "keep the word of His patience" (KJV) are those still living believers who will overcome the difficulties of the first 3 1/2 yrs. and the great trib that follows.
　

I've been away from my computer. summertime here you know

You have impressed me with your comparisons of Matt 24 & Rev 6 and I would concur but that does not convince me that the church is meant to see these things come to pass. In the correct context of Matthew 24 Jesus was speaking to JEWS not the church concerning events of the Tribulation.

Of course I realise that Christians have undergone tribulation and according to Voice of the Martyrs are going through it more than ever before. We have not been promised an easy life that is why we are exhorted to cast our burdens on the Lord. (1Pet 5:7). We do go through tribulation but we are not meant for THE TRIBULATION.

The Tribulation is not normal trouble it is a time like has never been before (Matt 24:21). It is a time of judgment as Isaiah says, to bring an end to wickedness., a time called "Jacob's trouble", "Wrath of the Lamb" etc. References to The Tribulation are such that do not include the church. The church is not under judgment because Jesus already died for her.

You mention the cause & effect of Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I would submit that the raptured church will have kept the word of His patience, just ask the martyrs, just ask those Christians who through difficulties can barely make it through each day. We, who battle on against what Satan and the world would throw against us are over comers. Those who are "in Christ" (1Thess 4:16) will be raptured and the very suggestion that they must go through a time meant for the wicked and for Israel belies common sense.

Blessings, Grace

 

[Trekson]

Hi Grace, Your words: "In the correct context of Matthew 24 Jesus was speaking to JEWS not the church concerning events of the Tribulation."

That is a valid opinion and one most pre-tribbers hold, however, I believe that Christ was aware of the mission He was going to leave to His disciples and I believe that He is speaking to them as the founding fathers of the christian church, not as Jews. Christ had already foretold about the church back in Matt. 16:18 and I believe that most of His teachings from that point on were Church centered.

Your words: "It is a time of judgment as Isaiah says, to bring an end to wickedness., a time called "Jacob's trouble", "Wrath of the Lamb" etc. References to The Tribulation are such that do not include the church."

There are many varying opinions as to what the "great trib" is. Pre-wrath believes it is only one thing and that is satan's wrath against the church per Rev. 12:17. It is NOT the wrath of the Lamb. It is NOT the time of Jacob's trouble. Judgment begins with the church. 1 Peter 4:17-19 - "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator."

The "judgments" upon the unsaved that begin with the wrath of the Lamb (trumpet judgments) don't start until after the 7th seal pre-wrath rapture/resurrection. When the wrath of the Lamb is over than the wrath of God begins with the vial judgments (Rev. 15:1). That time of "judgment" as spoken of by Peter is the great tribulation, which is why the church is described as coming out of it in Rev. 7:9&14 - "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, (the rapture/resurrection) of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;..."14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Your words: "Those who are "in Christ" (1Thess 4:16) will be raptured and the very suggestion that they must go through a time meant for the wicked and for Israel belies common sense."

You are correct, however, the "sense" is in recognizing, what is tribulation, what is wrath, what is judgment and upon whom do each of these fall. They are not all the same and there are three categories of persons facing various trials. The great trib is for the church, the trumpet and vial judgments and wrath are for the wicked and the time of Jacob's trouble is for Israel. However, there probably will be some overlapping of these last two events, imo.