Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

[veteran]

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s (Strong's #1588) sake those days will be shortened.

Colossians 3:9-13
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God (Strong's #1588), holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

To say that the elect in Matthew 24 only refers to the physical nation of Israel is, in light of Colossians 3, heresy. Without this heresy, the pretribulation argument fails.

Therefore, doctrine debunked.

You are right about the 'elect' subject, but that does not mean the pre-trib rapture theory is Biblical.

 

[TWC]

You are right about the 'elect' subject, but that does not mean the pre-trib rapture theory is Biblical.

We're in agreement. I think you may have misread my post.

The pretrib doctrine asserts that the elect of Matthew 24 refers solely to the physical nation of Israel, which doesn't line up with the words of Paul to the Colossians.

 

[Graceismine]

Hi Axehead, Your words: "The Rapture theology only flourishes in a nation where no tribulation is happening."

That's not a true statement at all. The rapture isn't about "rescue" from the great trib or from torture, imprisonment or martyrdom. The one and only thing the "rapture" is about is removing His church before the wraths begin. Ask those same people if they're looking for the return of Christ as their "blessed hope" and I'll bet you'll get an enthusiastic and resounding yes! Fortunately, they occur at the same time!

I would think they would be looking for Jesus to take them out more than any of us. :mellow:

Isa_45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Matthew 24:21-22
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s (Strong's #1588) sake those days will be shortened.

Colossians 3:9-13
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. Therefore, as the elect of God (Strong's #1588), holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do.

To say that the elect in Matthew 24 only refers to the physical nation of Israel is, in light of Colossians 3, heresy. Without this heresy, the pretribulation argument fails.

Therefore, doctrine debunked.

That is a good point and it made me stop and think. :mellow: You are not right though because Israel is God's elect ,
Isa_45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

When we get something like this we must look at the context. In Matthew 24 Jesus is speaking to Jews before the church came into existence. He is warning them about what would take place during the coming Tribulation. He is speaking about those who will be in Judea, and about taking flight on the Sabbath. His description of the Tribulation lines up with the descriptions of DOL in the Old Testament. He is not referring to "elect' as the church who has no connection with Judea and Sabbath in the terms that He uses.

The "Colossians "elect" obviously refers to the church that he elected for His purposes as is pointed out in 1Peter
1Pe 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

God's election of the nation of Israel was to fulfil His purpose nationally and to be a blessing to the other nations (through the coming of Jesus).

Anyone who is born again has been elected through His foreknowledge to become a people that would solely belong to Him. A body through which He could work in the earth.

Your heresy theory flies out the window because there is none here.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

I believe I can answer this question through God's word. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." I think it's safe to assume that the whole bible is God's message to the church in one way or another via 2 Tim. 3:16 - “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV)

A serious believer in a pre-trib rapture might pose this question: What is the purpose of the rapture, if not to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come?

Hi Trekson,

2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Just like Noah, the rightous man, was saved from the wrath, so it was to be again. The wicked are destroyed and the righteous are left behind here on earth.

 

[Axehead]

Hi Axehead, Your words: "The Rapture theology only flourishes in a nation where no tribulation is happening."

That's not a true statement at all. The rapture isn't about "rescue" from the great trib or from torture, imprisonment or martyrdom. The one and only thing the "rapture" is about is removing His church before the wraths begin. Ask those same people if they're looking for the return of Christ as their "blessed hope" and I'll bet you'll get an enthusiastic and resounding yes! Fortunately, they occur at the same time!

Of course we are not "appointed unto wrath." Is anyone proposing that God's children will endure His wrath? But we are promised tribulation. In the world ye will have tribulation, but be of good cheer..."

Two lives that endured great tribulation are Corrie Ten Boom and Richard Wurmbrand. You can see what the Lord did with their lives as a result of their trust in Him and the incredible tribulation they both went through.

 

[veteran]

We're in agreement. I think you may have misread my post.

The pretrib doctrine asserts that the elect of Matthew 24 refers solely to the physical nation of Israel, which doesn't line up with the words of Paul to the Colossians.

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

[TWC]

That is a good point and it made me stop and think. :mellow: You are not right though because Israel is God's elect ,
Isa_45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

When we get something like this we must look at the context. In Matthew 24 Jesus is speaking to Jews before the church came into existence. He is warning them about what would take place during the coming Tribulation. He is speaking about those who will be in Judea, and about taking flight on the Sabbath. His description of the Tribulation lines up with the descriptions of DOL in the Old Testament. He is not referring to "elect' as the church who has no connection with Judea and Sabbath in the terms that He uses.

The "Colossians "elect" obviously refers to the church that he elected for His purposes as is pointed out in 1Peter
1Pe 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

God's election of the nation of Israel was to fulfil His purpose nationally and to be a blessing to the other nations (through the coming of Jesus).

Anyone who is born again has been elected through His foreknowledge to become a people that would solely belong to Him. A body through which He could work in the earth.

Your heresy theory flies out the window because there is none here.

Isaiah 45:4
For Jacob My servant’s sake,
And Israel My elect, (Strong's 972)
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me

Psalm 105:6
Remember His marvelous works which He has done,
His wonders, and the judgments of His mouth,
O seed of Abraham His servant,
You children of Jacob, His chosen ones! (Strong's 972)



Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[veteran]

Isa_45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.


That is a good point and it made me stop and think. :mellow: You are not right though because Israel is God's elect ,
Isa_45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

TWC showed how those in Christ's Church are His elect per Colossians 3. That ends any Israelites only are elect type argument.

When we get something like this we must look at the context. In Matthew 24 Jesus is speaking to Jews before the church came into existence.

The tradition that the Church only began at Pentecost, or Antioch, is not Biblical. Christ Jesus did not come to establish a 'new' religion. He came to fulfill what the Old Testament prophets were given to speak from God.

God's Church from the beginning is the same as Christ's Church. What changed was the Old Covenant and those who still want to hold onto it becoming spiritually lost without Christ. This is why Apostle Paul proclaimed in Gal.3 that all those of Faith like Abraham have become the children of Abraham. Afterall, the Promise by Faith was first given through Abraham, and not through Israel (Jacob). But Isaac inherited that Promise, as also Jacob did. And God gave Jacob the new name of Israel to represent that Promise of Salvation by Faith, and not by the works of the law.

He is warning them about what would take place during the coming Tribulation. He is speaking about those who will be in Judea, and about taking flight on the Sabbath. His description of the Tribulation lines up with the descriptions of DOL in the Old Testament. He is not referring to "elect' as the church who has no connection with Judea and Sabbath in the terms that He uses.

The 7 signs of the end Christ gave there in Matt.24 and Mark 13 parallel the events of His Book of Revelation. And Revelation was DEFINITELY given to those in Christ's Church, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile. Christ's Apostles and disciples WERE the 'continuation' of His Church under The New Covenant.

The "Colossians "elect" obviously refers to the church that he elected for His purposes as is pointed out in 1Peter
1Pe 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

God's election of the nation of Israel was to fulfil His purpose nationally and to be a blessing to the other nations (through the coming of Jesus).

What you're heeding is Judaism, which preaches a FALSE separation between God's Church of the Old Testament and the continuation of His Church under His New Covenant through His Son.

This is why Paul taught in Rom.9 that believing Gentiles have now become God's Israel also. Judaism of course denies that, as they want the world and Christianity to think Christ's Church is a totally brand new concept disconnected from the Old Testament saints. Abraham didn't get to live to Christ's crucifixion, yet The Promise by Faith that all Christians must accept first was given to Abraham. Try and explain that. Your Jewish idea cannot explain that.

Anyone who is born again has been elected through His foreknowledge to become a people that would solely belong to Him. A body through which He could work in the earth.

Your heresy theory flies out the window because there is none here.

Yours is the heresy, because now under The New Covenant, one who is born of Israel that refuses The Son are cut off from God's Plan of Salvation. Thus it is no longer about flesh seed, but about belief on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ. For today's time, with the flesh seed of Israel that refuse The Son, only a very few promises remain for them today on earth. They are cut off from the other promises that The New Covenant Church inherited under Christ Jesus. Will this difference also continue into Christ's future thousand years reign and thereafter? Yes, for as long the flesh seed of Israel refuse Christ Jesus, they will remain cut off and will perish.

 

[Foreigner]

There has been a lot of Revisionism going on with the Pre-trib school, even with trying to turn what many of the early Church fathers said into the idea.

http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Pretrib_Rapture_Dishonesty.html

Veteran, absolutely NOTHING in your posts or the link you provided refutes ANYTHING Graceismine said when he posted this:


"In 150, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
In 270 Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader preached it.
In 350 Ephraim the Syrian
In 400, Jerome in the Latin vulgate
Then there were the thousand years called the "dark ages", and then it came back.

In 1304, Reverend Dolcino proclaimed the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1400 Bible translations in the native tongues led to a new propagation of the Pre-trib Rapture.
In 1627, Joseph Mede
1627 Increase Mather
1687, Peter Jurieu
1700 John Asgill
1738, Philip Doddridge
1748 John Gill
1763, James McKnight
1744, Morgan Edwards
1792, Thomas Scott
And then in 1830, John Darby

I was just reading three days ago about Epharaem the Syrian. In 373 A.D he said: "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

That was over 1600 years ago. So much for: "The Pre-Wrath position is a modern invention, so is the Pre-Trib position too if one considers that it only began since the 1800's."




When I first became saved I was taught that the Pre-Trib Rapture was a sure thing. Over time I swung to the other side and was convinced it was wrong. Now I am on the fence. I can find scripture that both supports and appears to refute it.

As I said, I am leaning towards Post instead of Pre, but there are still questions put to me by those who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture that I too am unable to answer.


1 Thess. 2:7
"For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way."

- Who is the Restrainer?
- If it is not the Holy Spirit, then who is it?
- If it is the Holy Spirit, then how could God's chosen remain on earth without Him? Indeed, how can be we expected to successfully live without the Holy Spirit inside us?
- If it is the Holy Spirit, but He is able to remain in the Christians that are left on earth, then how could the members of the body not thwart the Anti-Christ via the Holy Spirit at work within them?



Rev. 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

- How will God keep his chosen people "from the hour of temptation" if this is going to be worldwide?
- What will be done with Christians during this time if this scripture doesn't mean they are taken?
- How can they not be included in the "to try then that dwell upon the earth" if they are still here on earth?



1 Thess. 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

- How could this possibly be the same event as Rev. 19:11-21? That scripture mentions nothing about raising the dead in Christ first and then calling the living believers to Him in the air before he begins ruining the day for everyone else left on earth. These two scriptures don't seem to reconcile as the same event. One could even make an argument that the "armies of Heaven" mentioned in Rev. 19:14 are those that were "taken up" in 1 Thess. 17.

Scripture goes to great pains to point out that man has no idea when Christ will return and all will be caught by surprise. He will come "as a thief in the night" etc. etc. etc.
Yet if Christ's only return is at the end of the Tribulation, then everyone KNOWS when He will be returning -- just over 900 days (roughly 3.5 years) after the Anti-Christ reveals himself for who he truly is.

If the true Christians are still on earth, they will recognize who the Anti-Christ is, even before he identifies himself. They will also see through scripture exactly what is going to be happening then and have the timetable for Christ's return. How could the elect POSSIBLY be surprised at when Christ returns then.

So how can Christ return when no one expects Him if the events and timetable from the time the Anti-Christ claims the throne until Christ returns to ruin everyone's day is clearly documented?


If you wish to comment and fill in the blanks, I am all ears. But facts or opinions, please keep it simple, don't bring in unrelateed topics and save the insults. Thanks.
I am simply looking for the truth and am not selling anything.




.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, absolutely NOTHING in your posts or the link you provided refutes ANYTHING Graceismine said when he posted this:


"In 150, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.
In 270 Victorinus, the Bishop of Pettau, a Catholic leader preached it.
In 350 Ephraim the Syrian
In 400, Jerome in the Latin vulgate
Then there were the thousand years called the "dark ages", and then it came back.

For example, let's take Ephraim for instance. If one actually reads... what all he wrote, his writings show he actually believed in a post-tribulational coming and gathering, not a Pre-trib Rapture. Pre-trib promoters like Ice, LaHaye, etc. have already caught trying to say different.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Hi TWC,
Totally agree with you!

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Not all the decendants of Abraham are chrildren of Israel
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Not just because they are of the seed of Abraham does that make them the children of Abraham.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
In other words, the children of the flesh that came from Abrahams seed are not his children.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
The true children of Abraham are the children of faith.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
We, Christians, Jews and Gentiles, are the children of Abraham, not the Jews that are still living under the law.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, absolutely NOTHING in your posts or the link you provided refutes ANYTHING Graceismine said when he posted this:

Anyone can simply compose a list and put names on it.

Dave MacPherson is a Christian scholar/historian that has thoroughly researched the origins of the 1800's Pre-Trib Rapture theory. He travels to Britain researching historical document references of what Church clergy and scholars that lived in the times of the Irvingite movement, Plymouth Brethren, and John Darby in 1800's Great Britain, where the Pre-trib doctrine originated. He has researched documents of past Church historians that did not assign origin of the Pre-trib doctrine to any time prior to the 1800's in Britian.

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/air/Jeffrey.pdf

http://www.thebibletruth.org/DaveMacP.htm

http://www.tribwatch.com/davemac.htm

http://www.apostolics.net/kirkland/crchhst1.html

That last link in bold reveals through some of MacPherson's research on the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine origin, that there was an association of Jewish occultism within the Irvingite church in 1830's Great Britain.

Also within those links is revealed later practices of Revisionist history by certain Pre-Trib authors today that have attempt to assign it a much earlier origin prior to the 1800's. Those Pre-Trib authors are simply trying to fabricate evidence, since none actually exists for origin of the doctrine prior to the 1800's, including their attempt to twist earlier writings like Pseudo-Ephraim (who actually held to a post-trib view per his actual writings).

 

[Trekson]

Hi Foreigner, You didn't ask for the pre-wrath viewpoint but I thought I'd supply it anyways as, imo, it is the "middle" ground that cements the opposing views together.

Your Questions: "
- Who is the Restrainer? - Michael as depicted in Rev. 12:7-9 and Dan. 12:1. In this verse when Michael "stands up" is when he stops restraining. The other questions, the pre-trib school has no reasonable answer. This answer satisfies all the questions that the HS as restrainer brings up.


Rev. 3:10
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try (discipline) them that dwell upon the earth."

- How will God keep his chosen people "from the hour of temptation" if this is going to be worldwide?
- What will be done with Christians during this time if this scripture doesn't mean they are taken?
- How can they not be included in the "to try then that dwell upon the earth" if they are still here on earth?

How have we kept the "word of my patience"? By enduring the great trib. which will be world-wide. Those that have endured the great trib will then be raptured. The word "try" means discipline and that will be the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God which will begin after the rapture of the church that ends the great trib. Post-trib believes the great trib and the wraths are the same event but they are not! The real meaning of post-trib and pre-wrath are actually the same. The pre-wrath rapture occurs at ther end of the great trib. Vet's view should really be considered as post-wrath or post 70th week.

1 Thess. 4:16-17
"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

- How could this possibly be the same event as Rev. 19:11-21? It's not, but pre-trib is not the only alternative view as I have shown.

Scripture goes to great pains to point out that man has no idea when Christ will return and all will be caught by surprise. He will come "as a thief in the night" etc. etc. etc.
Yet if Christ's only return is at the end of the Tribulation, then everyone KNOWS when He will be returning -- just over 900 days (roughly 3.5 years) after the Anti-Christ reveals himself for who he truly is. I agree and pre-wrath does NOT have that problem as we don't know how long the great trib will last.

If the true Christians are still on earth, they will recognize who the Anti-Christ is, even before he identifies himself. They will also see through scripture exactly what is going to be happening then and have the timetable for Christ's return. How could the elect POSSIBLY be surprised at when Christ returns then.

So how can Christ return when no one expects Him if the events and timetable from the time the Anti-Christ claims the throne until Christ returns to ruin everyone's day is clearly documented?

The answer I have for that is in 1 Thes. 5:2 when Paul uses the phrase "thief in the night", however in vs. 4 he proclaims that "we are not in darkness that that day should overtake us as a thief". Which means the Lord's coming as a thief is for the unsaved world, not the church. We have the signs which were given in Matt. 24 and are parallels to the seals of Rev. 6. Vet feels that the usage of the "thief in the night" verse as given in Rev. 16:15 is equal to this 1 Thes. 5:2 verse which, imo, it is not!

 

[veteran]

If the true Christians are still on earth, they will recognize who the Anti-Christ is, even before he identifies himself. They will also see through scripture exactly what is going to be happening then and have the timetable for Christ's return. How could the elect POSSIBLY be surprised at when Christ returns then.

So how can Christ return when no one expects Him if the events and timetable from the time the Anti-Christ claims the throne until Christ returns to ruin everyone's day is clearly documented?

The answer I have for that is in 1 Thes. 5:2 when Paul uses the phrase "thief in the night", however in vs. 4 he proclaims that "we are not in darkness that that day should overtake us as a thief". Which means the Lord's coming as a thief is for the unsaved world, not the church. We have the signs which were given in Matt. 24 and are parallels to the seals of Rev. 6. Vet feels that the usage of the "thief in the night" verse as given in Rev. 16:15 is equal to this 1 Thes. 5:2 verse which, imo, it is not!

OK, you referenced me to an idea, so you've forced me to respond. You are twisting Apostle Paul's meaning and reason of the "as a thief" metaphor to suit your own wanderings from Scripture, so you can instead heed men's doctrines of a Pre-wrath Rapture theory.

Paul in 1 Thess.5 gave that "as a thief" metaphor specifically TO those in Christ's Church. The difference is that its effect will ONLY apply in regard to the time of Christ's coming. Paul uses it as a metaphor 2 ways - 1) as a WARNING to the Church, and 2) to show how Christ's coming will take the deceived by surprise, including the deceived in the Church, and also the unbeliever.


Christ's reference to His coming "as a thief" in Rev.16:15 is... a direct connection to that same warning Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5, and Peter in 2 Peter 3:10.

Our Lord Jesus ACTUALLY gave that "as a thief" metaphor PRIOR to Paul giving it...


Matt 24:42-51
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

WHO is our Lord Jesus speaking to there? To His disciples on the Mount of Olives who asked Him about the signs for the end. Christ is warning His servants with this, not unbelievers.


43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

There it is, Christ's reference to the idea of His coming being like a thief breaking in at night when the house is asleep. If one knows... in which 'watch' the thief is to come to try and break in, they would not allow their house to be broken into. That's the idea, remaining sober and watching, the SAME idea Apostle Paul gave the Church in 1 Thess.5.


44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

That's how we are to remain up to Christ's coming, staying spiritually sober and watching, for His coming will be a surprise for those who do not remain sober and watching (of which many of those in the Church today are not doing already). Those who remain watching and faithful to Christ will be blessed when He comes to discover they have been doing that.


48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming';
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

If one of His what does not stay watching for His coming? One of HIS SERVANTS. So just who is this warning for again? For HIS Church.


Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Same Message He gave in that Matthew 24 Scripture; same Message Apostle Paul gave to the Church in 1 Thess.5. The only... difference is our Lord Jesus Christ added the idea of one of HIS being able to lose their "garments" and "walk naked" in shame if they do not... watch. Christ gave that warning to HIS CHURCH on the 6th Vial there, showing that His coming is not until the final 7th Vial in the next verses...


Rev.16:16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, You must be having an "off" day because I know you're smarter than this! This interpretation stretches beyond believability.

Matt 24:42-51
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

WHO is our Lord Jesus speaking to there? To His disciples on the Mount of Olives who asked Him about the signs for the end. Christ is warning His servants with this, not unbelievers.

With this part, I agree.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Your words: "There it is, Christ's reference to the idea of His coming being like a thief breaking in at night when the house is asleep. If one knows... in which 'watch' the thief is to come to try and break in, they would not allow their house to be broken into. That's the idea, remaining sober and watching, the SAME idea Apostle Paul gave the Church in 1 Thess.5."

This is most certainly NOT what Christ is referencing. It's the DEVIL who comes "like a thief" in this passage because we the church are asleep. John 10:10 - "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Your words: "That's how we are to remain up to Christ's coming, staying spiritually sober and watching, for His coming will be a surprise for those who do not remain sober and watching (of which many of those in the Church today are not doing already). Those who remain watching and faithful to Christ will be blessed when He comes to discover they have been doing that."

The "good" servants are the watchful church, I agree. However, God considers "all" on earth to be His servants whether saved or not. God calls Nebuchadnezzar, "His servant" to bring judgment on Israel. All human beings are subject to His will whether we realize it or not and we are "all" agents to bringing about whatever it is that God desires whether it be blessings or evil that He uses for His purposes.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming';
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)
Your words: "If one of His what does not stay watching for His coming? One of HIS SERVANTS. So just who is this warning for again? For HIS Church."

No, the "evil" servant represents the world, not the "sleeping" church. This evil servant isn't sleeping at all, he is doing evil in the company of other sinners.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, You must be having an "off" day because I know you're smarter than this! This interpretation stretches beyond believability.

Those are prideful words on your part. Let's see how long you can keep that false pride.

Matt 24:42-51
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

WHO is our Lord Jesus speaking to there? To His disciples on the Mount of Olives who asked Him about the signs for the end. Christ is warning His servants with this, not unbelievers.

With this part, I agree.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Your words: "There it is, Christ's reference to the idea of His coming being like a thief breaking in at night when the house is asleep. If one knows... in which 'watch' the thief is to come to try and break in, they would not allow their house to be broken into. That's the idea, remaining sober and watching, the SAME idea Apostle Paul gave the Church in 1 Thess.5."

This is most certainly NOT what Christ is referencing. It's the DEVIL who comes "like a thief" in this passage because we the church are asleep. John 10:10 - "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Don't know where you got that crazy idea, from those Pre-Wrath doctors you listen to maybe? I think so. Why don't you for once actually READ the Scripture as written, and quit listening to those scripture lawyers that are messing you up?...


Matt 24:37
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(KJV)

By the time our Lord Jesus gets to this point in Matt.24, He is starting to talk about the event of HIS coming, not the devil's coming.


Matt 24:42
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
(KJV)

That's about being on watch, because of the hour of WHOSE coming? The Devil you say??? (you said that's not about Christ's coming, but the devil's coming).


Matt 24:43-44
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(KJV)

Has The LORD blinded you also along with the unbelieving Jews today? Or is it that you have so much hate against me because of correcting you that it has you in some kind of frenzy to try and prove me wrong? It think's it's a little of both. Just read the Scripture simply, and don't worry about trying to prove something against me. You should quit listening to those scripture lawyers too.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Your words: "That's how we are to remain up to Christ's coming, staying spiritually sober and watching, for His coming will be a surprise for those who do not remain sober and watching (of which many of those in the Church today are not doing already). Those who remain watching and faithful to Christ will be blessed when He comes to discover they have been doing that."

The "good" servants are the watchful church, I agree. However, God considers "all" on earth to be His servants whether saved or not. God calls Nebuchadnezzar, "His servant" to bring judgment on Israel. All human beings are subject to His will whether we realize it or not and we are "all" agents to bringing about whatever it is that God desires whether it be blessings or evil that He uses for His purposes.

God used ole' Neb as a servant to punish the rebellious of His people, that's true, much as He also uses Satan to do the same thing. But Neb nor the devil was not a servant in the same sense as God's Church, and surely you ought to know that difference. You're being silly. Yet ole' Neb did turn to God per Dan.4, and became a true servant later, after God had punished him.

And just how... does that apply to what our Lord Jesus said in Matt.24 to His Church through His disciples there? Different matter altogether, for Christ was speaking to His Church there, to HIS followers, to the believer, not to the unbeliever.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, 'My lord delayeth his coming';
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)
Your words: "If one of His what does not stay watching for His coming? One of HIS SERVANTS. So just who is this warning for again? For HIS Church."

No, the "evil" servant represents the world, not the "sleeping" church. This evil servant isn't sleeping at all, he is doing evil in the company of other sinners.

Like to jump and skip past verses too do ya?

You well know Christ is addressing His Apostles and disciples there upon the Mount of Olives, and NOT the unbelieving. So why have you fallen to that ignorance about His warning of those who don't watch like He commanded becoming an evil servant?

Matt 24:48-51
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, "My lord delayeth his coming";
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Jesus applied the title of "evil servant" to the one who REFUSES to remain watching for His coming and is instead deceived! Will that apply to those in His Church that refuse to stay on watch for His coming? Yes! And in Matt.25, the next Chapter, He calls those foolish virgins.

But YOU will say just about anything, and twist the Scriptures any WAY you can, to TRY and win an argument, showing your true colors as to your character. You need to repent to Christ Jesus before it's too late.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, I still say you are misinterpreting these verses and I never said anything about the "devil" coming. Let's try it another way. I agree that the main topic is the Lord's coming.

Matt. 24:42-51 - "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. This is an "aside," the thief is the devil. Christ is not the thief. What he is saying is that the devil will tempt us or try to distract us, if we don't watch. John 10:10 is a good example as is Matt. 12:43-45.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. This is a good verse against post-trib.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, (the watchful church) whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. end of the "good" servant topic. Now we go to the "evil" servant.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; This is the world per 2 Peter 3:3-4 - "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; This is not the same as the five virgins.
This evil servant is actively participating in sinful behavior. It goes way beyond a failure to watch. The five foolish virgins were never called "evil". Some have said and I can't disagree, that when they went to "buy" they had to accept the mark of the beast and that is why Christ says he doesn't know (recognize) them. This could be a cautionary tale towards physical preparedness in the end-times.
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth

 

[veteran]

Here's what you said; I'm not going to let you off easy about this either...

By Trekson:

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Your words: "There it is, Christ's reference to the idea of His coming being like a thief breaking in at night when the house is asleep. If one knows... in which 'watch' the thief is to come to try and break in, they would not allow their house to be broken into. That's the idea, remaining sober and watching, the SAME idea Apostle Paul gave the Church in 1 Thess.5."

This is most certainly NOT what Christ is referencing. It's the DEVIL who comes "like a thief" in this passage because we the church are asleep. John 10:10 - "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

There is NO assigning of just who that "thief" represents in our Lord's metaphor there!!! You cannot just simply assign the Devil to it either. Christ is giving an EXPRESSION!

But you said, and I quote: "It's the DEVIL who comes "like a thief" in this passage...".

I guess you totally missed our Lord Jesus saying the following...

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

Through your OWN ignorance, you have wrongly assigned the Devil as being The Lord Jesus Christ. Surely... you don't intend to do that!

Yet, our Lord Jesus Himself said emphatically: "Behold, I come as a thief" in that verse.


Because of wanderings from Scripture like you've been used to, that's the kind of things you run into with those who don't stay in it as written. They eventually get to where they can't even read God's Word in simplicity! I think our Heavenly Father is trying to show you something, trying to wake you up out of your stupor. That's why I cannot just let that error pass. Are you ready to listen to the actual Scripture yet?

In that Matt.24 Scripture, our Lord Jesus is comparing the 'event' of His second coming like how a common thief breaks into one's home at night while the house is asleep. That's why He says He comes "AS a thief". It does NOT mean He's talking about the Devil being that thief, nor Himself, nor any specific person. He's simply giving the IDEA of a thief breaking in the home, ANY thief!

So why can't you simply understand He's just giving a comparison of one event with another event, and that's all there is to it? There are Scriptures where He gives symbolic references to Satan, etc., like the "dragon" or "leviathan", but this Matt.24 example is NOT one of them.

 

[tgwprophet]

Trekson, I get the same understanding frorm your post as Veteran does and I am in agreement with Veteran as to who comes as a thief in the night.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: "So why can't you simply understand He's just giving a comparison of one event with another event, and that's all there is to it?"

And you need to understand that just because the same words or expressions are used they aren't neccessarily speaking of the same thing. There is no denying that Christ is speaking of Himself in Rev. 16:15 but that's not the scripture in question. Yes, the same expression is used in 1 Thess. 5:2 and Rev. 3:3 and even 2 Peter 3:10, however not all uses of the word "thief" by Christ is speaking of the same thing. The scripture in question is Matt. 24:43 - "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

The highlighted section is the key phrase. Let's look at another verse. Matt. 26:41 - "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

While this is regarding the disciples in the garden, the aspect is the same. Here's the AMP version of Matt. 24:43 - " But understand this: had the householder known in what [part of the night, whether in a night or a morning] watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be undermined and broken into."

I believe that when Christ is describing Himself as a thief it is along the lines of suddenness and unexpectedness. However, in this passage, the thief is breaking and entering and undermining the householder or as the KJV says, the "goodman". The opposite of the highlighted verse above would be that if the "goodman" had been watching, then He would have stopped the thief. In otherwords, he would have prevented the thief from coming! If this was referencing Christ, why would "watchfulness" prevent His coming? It wouldn't, it would just NOT come suddenly or unexpectedly, but that is not what vs. 43 is implying, imo.