Why Should the Church Endure the Great Trib?

[John S]

TWC - You're right. The Pre-Tribbers are taking the wrong position but I don't agree with your scenario.
The "choice" will be the Mark. After declining that, choices will probably no longer be allowed to be made. Death in a concentration camp will probably be the result. This is what happens to "terrorists".

 

[iamlamad]

Trumpeter - Are you claiming that God AUDIBLY speaks to you - because that is what Lamad is claiming?

Lamad - NO - God doesn't audibly speak to me and I don't go onto Christian websites telling lies that He does.
Shame on you.

John, I have a suggestion: take that verse that says, "my sheep hear my voice," and begin to meditate on it. Roll it over and over in your mind, hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month. Begin to bug God about it, as to WHY this verse is not real in your life. Determine you will do this until you DO hear.

The first time I was bugging God about a verse I did not understand, I don't think I missed a day for 6 months if asking Him about it, and finally in the 6th month He answered. John, if I had given up in the 5th month, chances are great I would still be wondering why that verse was not real for me. I don't like a life of wondering: it is the opposite of living by faith.

Lamad

 

[John S]

You are a liar. God does NOT audibly speak to you.

 

[Trumpeter]

I think that you misunderstand the passage.

The Lord's return is said to come as a thief in the night. BUT THE TEXT IMPLIES THAT IT'S NOT CHRISTIANS THAT HIS RETURN COMES AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT.

Greetings blacksheep,

I think that you misunderstand the passage.

If you read just that text you might think that it's not Christians but if you take it in context you would know that it's talking about believers.


When the Rapture happens, the faithful church will be ready as she will be found watching and praying. She won't be surprised by the thief in the night, it's only the dead church that'll be surprised.


1Th 5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others [do], but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night.

1Th 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and [as] a helmet the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,


In verse 1 Paul makes reference to the times and the seasons of the solemn convocations of the Lord, the Holy Feasts of the Lord or more accurately, the Holy "appointments". Paul clearly says that Christians who live like children of the day and of the light won't be surprised by this day. It'll be the Christians of the dead Church who will be surprised.


Rev 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write, 'These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: "I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Rev 3:2 "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.

Rev 3:3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

The Sardis church is dead, and if she doesn't repent, she won't know what time the Lord will come. In the Jewish tradition, the high priest and the captain of the Temple guards were also nick named the "thieves in the night". The priests who were to constantly watch over the holy fire and over the chandelier were to never sleep during their service. If the high priest or the captain of the guards, during a surprise visit, found a priest sleeping, they would set his clothes on fire. He would have to leave his burning clothes and run ashamed, "[that] the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed;" (Revelation 3:18).

In contrast, the living church will know when the Lord comes, even though she knows neither the day nor the hour. She won't be surprised because she is always watching.
The Lord says:


Luk 21:34 "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.

Luk 21:35 "For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Luk 21:36 "Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."


Abraham is a type of the Faithful Church and Lot is a type of the Unfaithful Church.


Mat 24:45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?

Mat 24:46 "Blessed [is] that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.

Mat 24:47 "Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.

Mat 24:48 "But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'

Mat 24:49 "and begins to beat [his] fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,

Mat 24:50 "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for [him] and at an hour that he is not aware of,

Mat 24:51 "and will cut him in two and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Neither the good or the bad servant knew the exact hour of the return of their master but the good servant faithfully continued to do what he was asked. This is what the faithful church will continue to do until the end.

God bless.

You are a liar. God does NOT audibly speak to you.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

 

[TWC]

TWC - You're right. The Pre-Tribbers are taking the wrong position but I don't agree with your scenario.
The "choice" will be the Mark. After declining that, choices will probably no longer be allowed to be made. Death in a concentration camp will probably be the result. This is what happens to "terrorists".

Taking the mark would mean renouncing your faith, no? Refusing the mark will certainly result in death as the Bible says, but I do fully believe that believers will be tested and we ought to be prepared to stand firm regardless. I was using a rather extreme example to make that point.

 

[veteran]

Taking the mark would mean renouncing your faith, no? Refusing the mark will certainly result in death as the Bible says, but I do fully believe that believers will be tested and we ought to be prepared to stand firm regardless. I was using a rather extreme example to make that point.

Actually, ALL... believers on Christ Jesus still alive for the "great tribulation" will fall under a test. The TYPE of test simply depends whether one is deceived by the false one or not.

Some of us God has already sealed to know the near-future coming pseudo-Christ is going to be a fake. That will mean those of us in that group could be delivered up even by one of our loved ones that is deceived by that false messiah. That is exactly... the scenario our Lord Jesus showed us for the end for some of us in the Mark 13 Scripture.

But the far greater trial will be upon the deceived of God's people, because they will fall down in worship of that coming pseudo-Christ thinking he is our Lord Jesus, their becoming spiritual harlots. This is why Apostle Paul gave us the "chaste virgin" warning of 2 Corinthians 11, because the main event for the end of this world will be about deception in false worship to the "another Jesus" which Apostle Paul warned about there.

It is that... particular point which is the main reason our Lord Jesus and His Apostles used the various spiritual metaphors about us remaining spiritual virgins vs. a spiritual harlot, He as The Bridegroom, and our remaining as a barren woman that does not travail with child, etc.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The church is not going to have to go through tribulation. Christ Jesus speaks of his coming as unlooked for, in normal everyday times, like the ones we are living in now. If we had to go through a tribulation one could set his clock as to Christ's return with the saints... But if we are going to return with him how is it we are on earth? Come on guys.... Think a little.

I believe that the reason we reject the notion of a pre-trib rapture is that we've thought alot, and taken a close look at what the scripture really says, rather than accept the cherry picking and worldly thinking of those men who concocted the fantasy of the "rapture" doctrine. The Lord can do whatever He wills in heaven or on earth, but He keeps His word and doesn't need to hide doctrine by placing it in bits and pieces in passages which typically deal with other issues. Nonbelievers aren't going to be looking for Christ's return, nor will they be looking for the rise of the anti-christ. The saints, however, are clearly described in scripture as continueing in the witness of Jesus Christ, and suffering persecution, imprisonment, and death for their testimony.

All those who have died in Christ since His resurrection are still in the grave awaiting His return and resurrection. Come on now....think a little!

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

Greetings Michael,

You are correct indeed. These are those who are left for refinement.


Thus says The Lord your God, The God of Israel: My anger is kindled against you! For you have not harkened to My voice, and to My words you have not listened; neither do you heed the words given to the prophets of old, nor of this day, even to the forsaking of The One you call Christ, though you seek to call yourselves by His name... Shall I reward you for your disobedience, simply because you are called Christian?!
My children, I have sent to you many in My own name, putting MY words in their mouths; and behold, I am sending 144,000 more, the witnesses. Yet you scoff and reject them, yea you persecute them on account of their words. Therefore, O disobedient generation who do call of themselves Christian, you are given up to refinement and shall pass through the fire, even the fires of The Last Week; you shall not be gathered... There shall be great wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And so it will come to pass: Those who would be first shall be last, and those who were accounted as last shall be first. For every man, who thinks himself righteous, shall be left. For there are none righteous! No, not one!... Not one person or church... All is vanity and pride, complete vexation of spirit.

For I have already told you that I require of you humility,
A complete forsaking of your wills, walking in faith,
Abiding wholly in the doctrine of Christ...

Yet all you men in the churches abide in your own doctrine,
Walking always in religion, and not in faith...

For not one of you obeys God, in truth.​

I tell you, all religions shall fail! Not one shall persist! For The Salvation of God is nowhere to be found in the religions of men, nor shall one find Me in any denomination or church. Thus all your attempts to hold onto your self-righteousness are in vain, for every bitter and perverse doctrine of men shall burn in that day.
My children, Christ’s church dwells within Him, and He dwells in the hearts of men. This is where My Son has rebuilt the temple, which has fallen down. Yet you seek outwardly in the world for fulfillment, mixing the things of the world with the things of God, polluting pure worship with the abominations of the pagan and the heathen... Desecrating My name and My glory as you continue segregating My Word, in an effort to maintain your own way.
Therefore, be separate! Says The Lord of Hosts, your Redeemer. Come out from among them, and follow Me! My servants, take nothing with you, for I abide not in any church made with human hands... Why do you not understand My speech?! For I tell you the truth: Those who love anyone or anything in this world, more than Me, are not worthy of Me; and to be a friend of this world is enmity with God, as it is written... Stop stifling the Spirit!

Know you not, that to celebrate and worship Me,
In any way contrary to the Scriptures, is a desecration of My name?!
And to mix anything I have given you, with the things of satan, is an abomination?!...

My children, come out of her! The harlot has deceived you!...

And you willingly commit adultery with her, reveling in all her fornications.​

You are fallen and given up to judgment, and shall endure desolations on every side! For I shall indeed correct and discipline even all those I love, with a strong rebuke and an outstretched arm. For you have not given heed to The Father’s commands, nor do you heed My correction. Thus I must bring My hand against you, that you may be humbled, that you may be broken atop this Stone, for by no other means shall you enter into My rest...Beloved, if I do not leave you to refinement, assuredly I say to you, you shall never enter in.
For this is a very stiff-necked generation, a very hard-hearted people. And though these called Christian do seek to honor Me with their lips, their hearts remain far from Me. Therefore, I ask you, who do you serve?... The world, and all its adulteries against God? Or God, in spirit and in Truth, apart from this world? For as it is written: The day is coming, and is already here, when The Father shall receive the worship He really wants. For only by the power of the Holy Spirit shall one worship God as He really is... Thus the first harvest shall indeed be lowly, of the lowly; and the second plenteous, of the refined and penitent.

Repent, therefore, and humble yourselves,
That you might escape all these things
Which must shortly come to pass...

Repent, I say! Repent, in truth!...

And now take up your cross and follow Me!​

Excerpt from:
Refinement and The Day of The Lord
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Refinement_and_The_Day_of_The_Lord

I don't like to take the stance of despising prophecy, but since you hold to a pre-trib rapture inspite of what the word actually plainly says, there is no reason to believe that the extra-biblical material you quote is anything more than the imagination of a man.

 

[Trumpeter]

I believe that the reason we reject the notion of a pre-trib rapture is that we've thought alot, and taken a close look at what the scripture really says, rather than accept the cherry picking and worldly thinking of those men who concocted the fantasy of the "rapture" doctrine. The Lord can do whatever He wills in heaven or on earth, but He keeps His word and doesn't need to hide doctrine by placing it in bits and pieces in passages which typically deal with other issues. Nonbelievers aren't going to be looking for Christ's return, nor will they be looking for the rise of the anti-christ. The saints, however, are clearly described in scripture as continueing in the witness of Jesus Christ, and suffering persecution, imprisonment, and death for their testimony.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

I don't like to take the stance of despising prophecy, but since you hold to a pre-trib rapture inspite of what the word actually plainly says, there is no reason to believe that the extra-biblical material you quote is anything more than the imagination of a man.

I believe that the reason we reject the notion of a pre-trib rapture is that we've thought alot, and taken a close look at what the scripture really says, rather than accept the cherry picking and worldly thinking of those men who concocted the fantasy of the "rapture" doctrine. The Lord can do whatever He wills in heaven or on earth, but He keeps His word and doesn't need to hide doctrine by placing it in bits and pieces in passages which typically deal with other issues. Nonbelievers aren't going to be looking for Christ's return, nor will they be looking for the rise of the anti-christ. The saints, however, are clearly described in scripture as continueing in the witness of Jesus Christ, and suffering persecution, imprisonment, and death for their testimony.

Greetings Michael,

The Lord's "harpazo" as described in Matthew 25:1-13; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19 is no fantasy, this event is paramount and exemplfied as one of the most significant future events that has been revealed in scripture.

These verses in Matthew and Revelation also reveal that there are 2 groups in the Church, one that isn't here for the Great Tribulation, and one that is.
And I think this is what leads post-tribbers to believe that they will be here for the trib because there is evidence in scripture as I've just shown you that some will be here.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8

(State of the faithful dead)
“After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.” – 1 Corinthians 15:6
“He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, butthey thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.”” – John 11:11-14
“Yet in My mercy, I have made death likened unto a dreamless sleep, so all those whom I love do not suffer in death, but only close their eyes to this life and then reopen them again to The Kingdom of God, which is in Christ Jesus.” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ – Volume 1 - “Death and Awakening”)
“Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death.” – Psalm 13:3
“When Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’” Having said this, He breathed His last.” – Luke 23:46

*The spirit that the Lord Jesus committed to the Father was not “Himself” or “His Soul”. Rather, it was the life-force, the breath of God that sustained Him. While He was alive, the Lord Himself revealed where He would be during the time between His death and resurrection:
“As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” – Matthew 12:40

*The Lord Himself also spoke to where He was not during the time between His death and resurrection:
“Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father.”” – John 20:17
For My Son did sleep in the lower parts of the earth, His tomb, for three days and three nights... By no means did He descend into the evils of man’s imaginings! ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 4 – “Proclaim NOT the Hell of the Churches of Men... In Their Words is No Mercy Found, Only the Makings of Satan”)
“They stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” – Acts 7:59-60

*The Apostle Paul speaks here of believers, like Stephen, whom have fallen asleep:
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” – 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
And here:
“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”” – 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
“Even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”” – Luke 20:37-38
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by Man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adamall die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” – 1 Corinthians 15:21-23
“Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead…” – Revelation 1:5

*Even of His own soul did the Apostle Paul speak, saying:
“Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.” – 2 Timothy 4:8
“The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.” – Revelation 20:5
“Grieve not over all these dead, for by no means does death have the last word...” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 7 – “I Shall Bring My Hand Against ALL Nations Who Have Forsaken Me”)
“Come, all murderers; watch Me raise you, and all who sleep, from the grave.” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 1 – “Come...Love Awaits You”)
“There will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” – Acts 24:15
“Listen, oh peoples of the earth, and have understanding of the penalty of sin, which is death. All, who have sinned, shall die and rest, save those who are awake and forgiven in My blood at the time of My coming. They shall be lifted up, not preceding those yet asleep in death who are redeemed in Christ.” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 2 – “The Judgment of God is True and Without Question. The Error of the People is Great, Brought Forth Out of Deception and Evil Arrogance, Leading to Corruption and Death")

*Likewise did the Lord Jesus speak concerning those whom are His:
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” – John 5:25
And:
“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” – John 6:54

*Therefore, what the Lord has spoken, stands. And thus has the Lord spoken to this modern generation:
“All people, both good and evil, sleep in death... They are in no way among the living, forthey know nothing; all their thoughts have perished with them. And so they wait until the great and glorious day of The Lord, unto which it is appointed to raise all who sleep... First, all who belong to Christ... And then later, all those who remain, unto the seat of judgment.Yet understand this also: To be absent from the body is to indeed be with The Lord, for all those who die in Christ will see Him in the blink of an eye. For those who are Mine, among the dead and sleeping, know not the passage of time; they do not even know they have died. For they only knew the end of this life was near, then suddenly they awake to the beginning of their new life with Christ.” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 1 - “Death and Awakening”)

I don't like to take the stance of despising prophecy, but since you hold to a pre-trib rapture inspite of what the word actually plainly says, there is no reason to believe that the extra-biblical material you quote is anything more than the imagination of a man.

Since you have taken the stance of despising prophecy you should hear what the Word says about it.

1Th 5:20 Do not despise prophecies.

And just because you have misinterpreted scripture does not make these prophesies false. Be very careful not to speak against what the Holy Spirit has given.

Mat 12:32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come.


Let All in the Earth Partake of My Word and Be Brought Into Deep and Profound Silence; And Let the Obstinate Stay Silent, Let Him Open Not His Mouth to Speak, Let Him Be Quiet and Consider, Says The Lord
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Let_All_in_the_Earth_Partake_of_My_Word_and_Be_Brought_Into_Deep_and_Profound_Silence%3B_And_Let_the_Obstinate_Stay_Silent%2C_Let_Him_Open_Not_His_Mouth_to_Speak%2C_Let_Him_Be_Quiet_and_Consider%2C_Says_The_Lord

 

[michaelvpardo]

Greetings Michael,

The Lord's "harpazo" as described in Matthew 25:1-13; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23; 15:51-52; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19 is no fantasy, this event is paramount and exemplfied as one of the most significant future events that has been revealed in scripture.

These verses in Matthew and Revelation also reveal that there are 2 groups in the Church, one that isn't here for the Great Tribulation, and one that is.
And I think this is what leads post-tribbers to believe that they will be here for the trib because there is evidence in scripture as I've just shown you that some will be here.




(State of the faithful dead)
“After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.” – 1 Corinthians 15:6
“He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.” Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, butthey thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.”” – John 11:11-14
“Yet in My mercy, I have made death likened unto a dreamless sleep, so all those whom I love do not suffer in death, but only close their eyes to this life and then reopen them again to The Kingdom of God, which is in Christ Jesus.” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ – Volume 1 - “Death and Awakening”)
“Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death.” – Psalm 13:3
“When Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’” Having said this, He breathed His last.” – Luke 23:46

*The spirit that the Lord Jesus committed to the Father was not “Himself” or “His Soul”. Rather, it was the life-force, the breath of God that sustained Him. While He was alive, the Lord Himself revealed where He would be during the time between His death and resurrection:
“As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” – Matthew 12:40

*The Lord Himself also spoke to where He was not during the time between His death and resurrection:
“Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father.”” – John 20:17
For My Son did sleep in the lower parts of the earth, His tomb, for three days and three nights... By no means did He descend into the evils of man’s imaginings! ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 4 – “Proclaim NOT the Hell of the Churches of Men... In Their Words is No Mercy Found, Only the Makings of Satan”)
“They stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” – Acts 7:59-60

*The Apostle Paul speaks here of believers, like Stephen, whom have fallen asleep:
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.” – 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
And here:
“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”” – 1 Corinthians 15:51-54
“Even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”” – Luke 20:37-38
“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by Man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adamall die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” – 1 Corinthians 15:21-23
“Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead…” – Revelation 1:5

*Even of His own soul did the Apostle Paul speak, saying:
“Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.” – 2 Timothy 4:8
“The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.” – Revelation 20:5
“Grieve not over all these dead, for by no means does death have the last word...” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 7 – “I Shall Bring My Hand Against ALL Nations Who Have Forsaken Me”)
“Come, all murderers; watch Me raise you, and all who sleep, from the grave.” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 1 – “Come...Love Awaits You”)
“There will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.” – Acts 24:15
“Listen, oh peoples of the earth, and have understanding of the penalty of sin, which is death. All, who have sinned, shall die and rest, save those who are awake and forgiven in My blood at the time of My coming. They shall be lifted up, not preceding those yet asleep in death who are redeemed in Christ.” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 2 – “The Judgment of God is True and Without Question. The Error of the People is Great, Brought Forth Out of Deception and Evil Arrogance, Leading to Corruption and Death")

*Likewise did the Lord Jesus speak concerning those whom are His:
“Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” – John 5:25
And:
“Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” – John 6:54

*Therefore, what the Lord has spoken, stands. And thus has the Lord spoken to this modern generation:
“All people, both good and evil, sleep in death... They are in no way among the living, forthey know nothing; all their thoughts have perished with them. And so they wait until the great and glorious day of The Lord, unto which it is appointed to raise all who sleep... First, all who belong to Christ... And then later, all those who remain, unto the seat of judgment.Yet understand this also: To be absent from the body is to indeed be with The Lord, for all those who die in Christ will see Him in the blink of an eye. For those who are Mine, among the dead and sleeping, know not the passage of time; they do not even know they have died. For they only knew the end of this life was near, then suddenly they awake to the beginning of their new life with Christ.” ~ (Letters from God and His Christ, Volume 1 - “Death and Awakening”)

Since you have taken the stance of despising prophecy you should hear what the Word says about it.

1Th 5:20 Do not despise prophecies.

And just because you have misinterpreted scripture does not make these prophesies false. Be very careful not to speak against what the Holy Spirit has given.

Mat 12:32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come.


Let All in the Earth Partake of My Word and Be Brought Into Deep and Profound Silence; And Let the Obstinate Stay Silent, Let Him Open Not His Mouth to Speak, Let Him Be Quiet and Consider, Says The Lord
http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Let_All_in_the_Earth_Partake_of_My_Word_and_Be_Brought_Into_Deep_and_Profound_Silence%3B_And_Let_the_Obstinate_Stay_Silent%2C_Let_Him_Open_Not_His_Mouth_to_Speak%2C_Let_Him_Be_Quiet_and_Consider%2C_Says_The_Lord

I'm not frightened by what you post or the god you get your direction from. I serve the living God, always have, always will. If you knew Him, you would know that as well.

 

[Trumpeter]

I'm not frightened by what you post or the god you get your direction from. I serve the living God, always have, always will. If you knew Him, you would know that as well.

I posted the Word of God.

1Th 5:20 Do not despise prophecies.

Mat 12:32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come.

If you don't believe what God says here then you have a problem.

And if you don't fear The Lord then you also have a problem.


Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do [His commandments]. His praise endures forever.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge, [But] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 9:10 "The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One [is] understanding.


I belong to My Lord Jesus Christ, together with all those who are His,

In Christ Jesus, YahuShua HaMashiach, is our salvation.

And because I know Him, I know that what He has written is truth.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

I believe that the reason we reject the notion of a pre-trib rapture is that we've thought alot, and taken a close look at what the scripture really says, rather than accept the cherry picking and worldly thinking of those men who concocted the fantasy of the "rapture" doctrine. The Lord can do whatever He wills in heaven or on earth, but He keeps His word and doesn't need to hide doctrine by placing it in bits and pieces in passages which typically deal with other issues. Nonbelievers aren't going to be looking for Christ's return, nor will they be looking for the rise of the anti-christ. The saints, however, are clearly described in scripture as continuing in the witness of Jesus Christ, and suffering persecution, imprisonment, and death for their testimony.
I don't like to take the stance of despising prophecy, but since you hold to a pre-trib rapture inspite of what the word actually plainly says, there is no reason to believe that the extra-biblical material you quote is anything more than the imagination of a man.

And extra biblical is saying it very lightly. It's an outright distortion of God's Word. Both doctrines will be put through the test. I believe the Word's of Jesus on the issue!

And I think this is what leads post-tribbers to believe that they will be here for the trib because there is evidence in scripture as I've just shown you that some will be here.
The reason we are post tribbers is because without fabrication that's what Jesus who will rapture us say's!

Immediately after the tribulation of those days....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory......And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We don't need to fabricate another rapture and call them two separate events. All that does is create contradiction which in turn causes more fabrication to counter those contradictions. Any doctrine that is complicated like pre-trib is always false. The bible isn't that difficult to figure out and pre-trib takes a book to cover all those fabrications and contradictions.

We know that rapture verses are all the same event. We know that the harpazo occurs at the angels sound of a trumpet...the last trumpet. We know that the angels do the gathering, and that we are caught up into the clouds in Revelation 14. We believe Jesus raptures us from the cloud's, at the last and seventh trumpet sounded by an angel. No person at a Jewish feast can sound an angels trumpet. That's an out right fabrication!

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That's this event and exposes yet another contradiction that pre-tribbers have yet to explain!

Pre-tribbers know that a rapture occurs at the last trump. They've manufactured that as a trumpet of some Jewish festival. They say that the pre-trib rapture occurs when Jesus returns in the clouds. And that the rapture of Mathew 24 occurs when Jesus "returns to earth!"

The following verse is the separate, fabricated Jewish rapture they've manufactured.

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

The problem and contradiction they have to fabricate their way out of is...

Why is the rapture of Revelation 14, which you say is the same Jewish rapture of Mt. 24, and within the seventh and last trumpet, said to occur "from the clouds" when you guy's say that it's the pre-trib rapture that happens "from the clouds!"...Seems to me that you have some explaining to do!

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
This is just another contradiction pre-tribbers don't care about.

 

[Trumpeter]

And extra biblical is saying it very lightly. It's an outright distortion of God's Word. Both doctrines will be put through the test. I believe the Word's of Jesus on the issue!


Immediately after the tribulation of those days....And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:...... and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory......And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We don't need to fabricate another rapture and call them two separate events. All that does is create contradiction which in turn causes more fabrication to counter those contradictions. Any doctrine that is complicated like pre-trib is always false. The bible isn't that difficult to figure out and pre-trib takes a book to cover all those fabrications and contradictions.

We know that rapture verses are all the same event. We know that the harpazo occurs at the angels sound of a trumpet...the last trumpet. We know that the angels do the gathering, and that we are caught up into the clouds in Revelation 14. We believe Jesus raptures us from the cloud's, at the last and seventh trumpet sounded by an angel. No person at a Jewish feast can sound an angels trumpet. That's an out right fabrication!

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That's this event and exposes yet another contradiction that pre-tribbers have yet to explain!

Pre-tribbers know that a rapture occurs at the last trump. They've manufactured that as a trumpet of some Jewish festival. They say that the pre-trib rapture occurs when Jesus returns in the clouds. And that the rapture of Mathew 24 occurs when Jesus "returns to earth!"

The following verse is the separate, fabricated Jewish rapture they've manufactured.

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

The problem and contradiction they have to fabricate their way out of is...

Why is the rapture of Revelation 14, which you say is the same Jewish rapture of Mt. 24, and within the seventh and last trumpet, said to occur "from the clouds" when you guy's say that it's the pre-trib rapture that happens "from the clouds!"...Seems to me that you have some explaining to do!

And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
This is just another contradiction pre-tribbers don't care about.

Greetings Black sheep,

Do you know how many groups of elect the Lord has?

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

Do you know how many groups of elect the Lord has?

Do you know how many groups of elect the Lord has?

I know that in the OT there are 6 words for elect/chosen and they don't alway's refer to Jews/Israel. The NT is what we are concerned with since Calvary and the resurrection of Christ. Now that the Church has been formed and there is no longer Jew or gentile, don't try to tell me that since the Jews were sometimes called God's elect/chosen people in the OT that the word elect means Jews in the NT because that's just false. There are three words for elect in the NT and not one of them is translated Jews in any of the lexicons including the interlinear.

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=elect

In every verse that the word 'eklektos' is used in the NT it never refers to Jews but always refers to Christian's, the church, and all believers.

You cannot change the meaning of a word to fit your doctrine and that's what you do.

Take a look at how the word elect or "eklectos" of Mathew 24 is used!
http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?criteria=elect&sstr=1&t=KJV

Take a look at any resource you want and you will not find one that supports the elect of the NT is Jews. It's fabricated to fit a fabricated false teaching.

 

[Trumpeter]

I know that in the OT there are 6 words for elect/chosen and they don't alway's refer to Jews/Israel.

That's right, God has different groups of elect.

Just off the top of my head I can think of 4 groups that He has.

-The Jews/Israel

-His church

-His 144,000 elect

-And His elect angels.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

That's right, God has different groups of elect.
Just off the top of my head I can think of 4 groups that He has.
-The Jews/Israel
-His church
-His 144,000 elect
-And His elect angels.

It was Adolf Hitler who said that if you tell a lie often enough to enough people they will come to believe it.

ELECT MEANS......
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah is called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians

Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words say's..............
Elect, Elected, Election:

lit. signifies "picked out, chosen" (ek, "from," lego, "to gather, pick out"), and is used of
(a) Christ, the "chosen" of God, as the Messiah, Luk 23:35 (for the verb in Luk 9:35 see Note below), and metaphorically as a "living Stone," "a chief corner Stone," 1Pe 2:4, 6; some mss. have it in Jhn 1:34, instead of huios, "Son;"

(angels, 1Ti 5:21, as "chosen" to be of especially high rank in administrative association with God, or as His messengers to human beings, doubtless in contrast to fallen angels (see 2Pe 2:4; Jud 1:6);

(c) believers (Jews or Gentiles), Mat 24:22, 24, 31; Mar 13:20, 22, 27; Luk 18:7; Rom 8:33; Col 3:12; 2Ti 2:10; Tts 1:1; 1Pe 1:1; 2:9 (as a spiritual race); Mat 20:16; 22:14; Rev 17:14, "chosen;" individual believers are so mentioned in Rom 16:13; 2Jo 1:1, 13.

Believers were "chosen" "before the foundation of the world" (cp. "before times eternal," 2Ti 1:9), in Christ, Eph 1:4, to adoption, Eph 1:5; good works, Eph 2:10; conformity to Christ, Rom 8:29; salvation from the delusions of the Antichrist and the doom of the deluded, 2Th 2:13; eternal glory, Rom 9:23.

The source of their "election" is God's grace, not human will, Eph 1:4, 5; Rom 9:11; 11:5. They are given by God the Father to Christ as the fruit of His death, all being foreknown and foreseen by God, Jhn 17:6; Rom 8:29. While Christ's death was sufficient for all men, and is effective in the case of the "elect," yet men are treated as responsible, being capable of the will and power to choose. For the rendering "being chosen as firstfruits," an alternative reading in 2Th 2:13, see FIRSTFRUITS.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1588&t=KJV

 

[Trumpeter]

In every verse that the word 'eklektos' is used in the NT it never refers to Jews but always refers to Christian's, the church, and all believers.

© believers (Jews or Gentiles), Mat 24:22, 24, 31; Mar 13:20, 22, 27; Luk 18:7; Rom 8:33; Col 3:12; 2Ti 2:10; Tts 1:1; 1Pe 1:1; 2:9 (as a spiritual race); Mat 20:16; 22:14; Rev 17:14, "chosen;" individual believers are so mentioned in Rom 16:13; 2Jo 1:1, 13.

So which answer do you want to go with here???

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

So which answer do you want to go with here???

How about if I say it this way...

It never refers solely to Jews. It refers to Christian's whether Jew or gentile just like Stron'g's, Thayer's, and Vines say's! Sometimes it refers to Christ and sometimes to angels. It never refers solely to JEWS!

So which answer do you want to go with here???

I'm already tired of dealing with your foolish games. This is a waste of time.

 

[michaelvpardo]

I posted the Word of God.

1Th 5:20 Do not despise prophecies.

Mat 12:32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the [age] to come.

If you don't believe what God says here then you have a problem.

And if you don't fear The Lord then you also have a problem.


Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do [His commandments]. His praise endures forever.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge, [But] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 9:10 "The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One [is] understanding.


I belong to My Lord Jesus Christ, together with all those who are His,

In Christ Jesus, YahuShua HaMashiach, is our salvation.

And because I know Him, I know that what He has written is truth.

Perfect love casts out fear, but I have a verse for you:
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-20

 

[Trumpeter]

How about if I say it this way...

It never refers solely to Jews. It refers to Christian's whether Jew or gentile just like Stron'g's, Thayer's, and Vines say's! Sometimes it refers to Christ and sometimes to angels. It never refers solely to JEWS!

I'm already tired of dealing with your foolish games. This is a waste of time.

So, in other words when the elect are gathered, it could be Gentile believers or Jewish believers or God's 144,000 elect.

Perfect love casts out fear, but I have a verse for you:
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-20

So all the fear The Lord verses are out the window then are they?

I've added nothing to nor taken anything away from the Book of Revelation so I can sleep very well at night, thank you.

God bless.

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

So, in other words when the elect are gathered, it could be Gentile believers or Jewish believers or God's 144,000 elect.

There are no "could be's"! When the elect is gathered it will be Christian's whether Jew or gentile. Where do you see another rapture other than the one you've already fabricated?

It's a real laugh to see you say you've added nothing or taken nothing away! You've taken away a rapture of Christian's from Mt. 24 and added another rapture of only Jews.
You've taken the true meaning of the word elect and perverted it to say it's only Jews.

And you still haven't answered my question about the apparent contradiction of Revelation 14. You pre-tribbers say that when the Lord returns to take us home he will not return to earth but only in the clouds. Well why does the rapture described in Revelation 14 say that Christ harvest His believers from the clouds?
I guess you guys will do as you always have and just fabricate yourself out of this one too!