Why the difference?
- Thread starter 6 Stories
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
It is all about creating a model for the nations of the world. To create a godly nation, that nation had to be separated from the pagan nations around them so as to present a true witness to their God.
But when Israel ultimately failed to persevere as a godly nation, other nations were given the same chance at being a godly nation. And that was because in Israel's history it was shown that national salvation depended on God's grace, such that fallen Israel was no more worthy than pagan nations to obtain deliverance.
By the time of Israel's failure under their covenant with God, that nation had become hardened, and only other nations would be willing to adopt the role of a godly nation, as Israel initially did. The same pattern would follow with pagan nations that befell Israel. All nations would ultimately fail under covenant agreement with God.
So in reality, all nations are called to separate from intimate relationships with pagan nations and pagan individuals. However, as God reached out to Israel initially, as an undeserving nation, other nations were to be given the same opportunity as Israel was given.
It was not so much that Israel could not have diplomatic relationships with other nations--they were not to intermarry with them, joining godliness to paganism. This remains the same in the outreach to other nations. Disciples are to be made of those nations such that they also separate from marriage to pagans.
A major change in this transition has been the Law itself, a covenant God designed to deal specifically with Israel, and no other nation. Once Israel had failed that Covenant, a New Covenant was given that would apply to all nations, including Israel.
However, the New Covenant would not impact Israel until the last days, according to Jeremiah 31. That's when Israel would finally adopt the Christian Covenant as a nation.
Christ came, in the middle of history, in order to enable the application of a universal Covenant, separating people of all nations from the paganism in the world. It would address the disqualification all nations that would be demonstrated in their relationship with God as nations. The remedy was, of course, "grace."
But when Israel ultimately failed to persevere as a godly nation, other nations were given the same chance at being a godly nation. And that was because in Israel's history it was shown that national salvation depended on God's grace, such that fallen Israel was no more worthy than pagan nations to obtain deliverance.
By the time of Israel's failure under their covenant with God, that nation had become hardened, and only other nations would be willing to adopt the role of a godly nation, as Israel initially did. The same pattern would follow with pagan nations that befell Israel. All nations would ultimately fail under covenant agreement with God.
So in reality, all nations are called to separate from intimate relationships with pagan nations and pagan individuals. However, as God reached out to Israel initially, as an undeserving nation, other nations were to be given the same opportunity as Israel was given.
It was not so much that Israel could not have diplomatic relationships with other nations--they were not to intermarry with them, joining godliness to paganism. This remains the same in the outreach to other nations. Disciples are to be made of those nations such that they also separate from marriage to pagans.
A major change in this transition has been the Law itself, a covenant God designed to deal specifically with Israel, and no other nation. Once Israel had failed that Covenant, a New Covenant was given that would apply to all nations, including Israel.
However, the New Covenant would not impact Israel until the last days, according to Jeremiah 31. That's when Israel would finally adopt the Christian Covenant as a nation.
Christ came, in the middle of history, in order to enable the application of a universal Covenant, separating people of all nations from the paganism in the world. It would address the disqualification all nations that would be demonstrated in their relationship with God as nations. The remedy was, of course, "grace."
Last edited:
BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
There's a exegesis theory that says there are two different Gods being referred to in both the Old and New Testaments.
The God of the New arrived to save and change the world from what the OT created of it.
Really,those differences you mention, are just another example of the work of men,scribes,opinion,and politics.
Contradictions,errors,etc...are part of that. While God is perfect.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
If you know the reason why God chose the Israelites to be his people in the first place, it helps to see why a change was necessary when Jesus came as Messiah.
A man named Abraham was the only human in the Bible called "Jehovah's friend".....(James 2:23) God made a promise to Abraham that through his seed, all nations would bless themselves due to the fact that he always obeyed his God, even when he was asked to do the unthinkable. (Genesis 22:18)
The fact is, God’s Messiah, the redeemer of the human race, had to be born through an earthly mother in order for God’s perfect law to be fulfilled.....(”an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth...a life for a life”.)
Jesus had to offer to God a sacrifice equivalent to what was lost....perfect sinless human life for the perfect sinless life Adam lost for all his children. No other human could pay that ransom and redeem the entire human race, restoring God’s original purpose for this earth.....Jesus was “sent” on that mission by his God, (John 17:3) but he did so willingly.
So firstly Israel was chosen to bring forth their Messiah because of God’s favour towards Abraham, and secondly God would provide a written account of his relationship with the only nation on earth born into a covenant relationship with Him and thus obligated to keep God’s laws from birth.
Israel’s history is a pictorial education for all who were to follow....a written record of God’s laws and how he expected his people to observe all those laws that he gave them. When they kept them, he blessed his people, and when they strayed, he punished them, so he provided a living example of what he wanted from his human children. He gave them a detailed way to worship him and the sacrifices that they offered regularly would be replaced by the singular sacrifice “once for all time” by “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”.
In the land that God gifted to his people, they would have prospered if they had simply been obedient to his laws, but often through poor leadership, they strayed and gave us an example of how strong God’s anger can be.
But the primary role of Israel was to produce their promised Messiah....and having done that, prophesy had already indicated that Messiah would be put to death, as an innocent man....and his own people were responsible for doing it. When Jesus asked that those who executed him to be forgiven, it was the Roman soldiers who drove the nails into his flesh that he was referring to, not the wicked Pharisees who plotted his murder and threatened Pilate’s political career if he failed to give in to their demands.
Having fulfilled his end of the covenant made with Abraham, God could now let his disobedient people go.....no longer bound to that covenant that they broke so many times. (Matt 23:37-39) He then chose a new “Israel”....”the Israel of God” (Gal 6:16) made up of the Jewish and Gentile members of Christ’s congregation of faithful believers. Unlike natural Israel, these would prove faithful to their death.
A new covenant was instituted on the night before Jesus’ death.....one that would cancel out the old one. No longer under a strict written code, Christ’s disciples were now under ‘the law of love’.....in imitation of their Master, they preached to all the lost ones in Israel first, then God brought in the people of the nations who wanted to worship the God of Jesus too...fulfilling his promise to Abraham that all the nations would gain a blessing from the faithful course of his Messiah.
So that is why there was a change....the two parts of the Bible are actually one story.....
ewq1938
Well-Known Member
- Jul 11, 2015
- 7,331
- 1,456
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Thanks Randy. Excellent answer.
The model for the world had its sins temporarily atoned for by the blood of animals followed by cleansing with water.
This foreshadowed the forgiveness of sins by the blood of Christ followed by the filling of the Holy Spirit that would come to Christians.
It is the permanent forgiveness of sins by the blood of Christ that enables the Holy Spirit to indwell Christians.
If Israel went out among the nations, they would adopt many of the pagan practices, lacking the power to resist.
It is the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit that enables Christians to go into godless nations and not become godless themselves.
Thanks BlessedPeace.
The reason for this thread is that some on this board were having trouble believing that the Holy Spirit did not indwell OT saints, that it only came upon them for a time and then left.
I was merely trying to present a different way of looking at God's plans, not trying to point out any contradictions to God's Word.
Gods people where told to kill and take over the land, sometimes they failed in that aspect; therefore they never even drove some of them out of the land. The reason was to make sure there would be no mingling of what? Idols and other gods.
Jesus who chose his aposltes sent them out to israel first, for many several years that was the focus of the ministry, however God desired to include the gentiles to be part of salvation when Jesus took care of sin, and was raised again. In which there is a newness of life for those who come to him. The first people the people went to where the israelites, and later on Paul came and he went out to the other surrounding nations, until the Gospel had been preached to the uttermost.
Then came the end of the age. Which would be a new age of fulfillment where God will write on the hearts and minds of those who are his. Sins been taken care of everyone has been reconciled back to Yahava. The choice if they desire that relationship or not.
Those are my thoughts on your question, which may be really radical.
Last edited:
Something said here reminds me of a point a teacher made. Yahava in the old testament showed his anger towards sin. In the new testament you see the other side of him, which his anger towards the sins of his people would be let out upon them for killing his Son, and because of his Son paying for sin, all people would be brought into reconcilation - however wheter they desire to be with God or not was or is their choice today. Thank you blessedpeace for the reminder.
All have strayed and fallen short of the glory of God because we all have a sin nature.
These were given the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit.
Thank you.
Jesus took care of sin as a slain lamb.
Rev 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth."
Through this act, heaven was prepared.
John 14:
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
The newness of life is what I was looking for, being born from above in the new covenant. That's what changed! These can enter heaven. OT saints had to wait for the Holy Spirit before they could enter heaven.
John 3:
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
The blood and the water in the OT foreshadowed the fact that Jesus blood and the Holy Spirit were needed for entry into heaven. These made possible the relationship between God and man.
Have you ever heard about the coloring of the curtains in the temple, representing the bruises and beating that Jesus would end up facing? You seem like a very good student of the bible, and I am happy for you.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Seems they had to wait until the Cross, when Jesus declared, "It is Finished." That is when Matthew said they came out of their graves, at the same moment the Temple veil was torn from top to bottom, meaning God would come to all now, and not just once a year. The Holy Spirit was always at work.
Entering heaven was always a physical experience. The Cross was a physical experience. The spiritual part was always accomplished since the foundation of the world. From God's perspective the Lamb's book of life was complete and sealed even before creation.
The question should not be when was the book received. The question should be why is the book being opened.
Sin was not removed from creation at the Cross. The punishment of sin was administered to the Son physically on the Cross and satisfied God's plan of redemption. At that point, humans no longer had to taste death. That is confined to sheol without a physical body. While Abraham's bosom was a place of comfort, the soul was still in the valley of the shadow of death, without a body and without a spirit. That is still being seperated in a state of death.
Life is having at least a physical body on over the soul. But a physical body does not exist in death. A physical body does exist in life in Paradise. The thief never entered the grave, so never entered death. We still bury a body seemingly out of respect and remembrance. But to God that body is meaningless and will just return to dust. That body of death was never going to be eternal.
Jesus was quoted in both Matthew and Luke, they were to follow Jesus and let the dead bury their dead. Jesus was the Resurrection and the Life. Paul said the soul receives a different body that is not of death when arriving in Paradise. Since the Cross, there is no waiting in death, period. Those in Paradise do rise first, because they follow Jesus on His way to the earth. Paradise is the point of departure. Then those alive on the earth meet them in the air. Those in Paradise don't need a new physical body. Only those on the earth need a new physical body out of Adam's body of death.
The book is being opened, because God is going to judge the earth and start removing the wicked into the LOF after blotting out their name from the Lamb's book of life.
Humans take a moment of silence when death occurs. After that last seal is opened and before the first Trumpet sounds, heaven takes a half hour of silence. This period of coming judgment is the end of sin and death by sin that affects all of creation. For those removed from the Lamb's book of life, death will now be permanent.
I never heard that. Thanks for sharing and for your well wishes.
"It is finished" also means "paid in full." Convicts "pay their debt to society." Even in the 1st century, upon release from prison, the prisoner would get a certificate with these words. Jesus paid the sin debt in full on the cross.
Hebrews 10:
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Jesus did pay the penalty for all of the sins of mankind on the cross. Jesus' work on earth was finished, but the only thing that existed on earth was the pattern of what had to be accomplished in the real Most Holy Place in heaven. Jesus blood still had to be sprinkled in heaven before mankind could enter. This act is what prepared heaven for us.
Hebrews 10:19-21
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Jesus did not ascend into heaven until 40 days later.
Acts 1:1-4
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
More patterns are shown below.
Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water."
"Having our hearts sprinkled" The veil over our hearts was torn by the blood of Jesus.
Having "our bodies washed with pure water." Having received the Holy Spirit, which occurred 50 days later.
As for those who came out of their graves: I believe that their resurrection was temporary, just as was Lazarus. They had to die again, being only raised in the flesh to show the power of God.
Yes, but it did not dwell in mankind until Pentecost. The Holy Spirit in us is how we are imputed to have "the righteousness of Christ."
Please explain. I don't find this anywhere.
Just to the extent that mankind did not all enter the bad side of hades before the cross.
I disagree with this, but don't want to debate at this time.
Isn't the why given in the 1st sentence of the Revelation?
Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"
I agree! How about that.
How did you come to these conclusions. To me, death is separation from the body and/or separation from God.
What is the resurrection of the dead to you? To me it is the rising of the body that was buried in the ground.
I don't know how you draw any of these conclusions.
I don't believe the wicked ever had their names written in the Lamb's book of life.
The half hour is the time it takes for the 2 witness/144,000 to rise from earth to heaven after rising from the dead.
Rev 11:11-12
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
This is the intervention by God that "cuts short" or ends the period of great tribulation, leading to the period of God's wrath.
These 2 witnesses are the only ones who have risen from the dead and ascended bodily into heaven. They are pictured in heaven in Revelation 14:1-5
14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Verse 3 above shows the only people in heaven with physical bodies. This is the sign of Jesus in heaven from Matthew 24:30 which occurs 30 minutes/immediately after the great tribulation. While they were rising, the song of Rev 5:9 stopped - spiritual redemption from the earth. Only the 144,000 could learn the new song - physical redemption from the earth.
Although I put all of this out there, I don't now have time to debate the spiritual/physical redemption.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Yet you claim is only temporary.
You don't allow any one to enter Paradise. Enoch entered. Elijah entered. Moses entered, because he was physically with Elijah. They were the 2 OT witnesses seen in heaven. The thief entered. Paul told us in 2 Corinthians 5:1 a way better physical body was given when a soul arrived at Paradise.
So is a physical resurrection permanent or only temporary until you say so? I don't see any Scripture that says Jesus is the temporary resurrection and the temporary life.
Hmmm... Well, before offering my thoughts on this, my question would be, what do you mean by "mingle?" Are you talking about fellowship/friendship or keeping to yourself/themselves and not interacting with anybody other than Israelites? Or are you talking about evangelicalism? Or... Yes, you would have to define what you mean by "not mingling." :)
Well, I will say this. :) God chose a people for Himself, out of all of His creation. This is His purpose of election, and those chosen by God are His elect. Even from the beginning, this people was not merely of one ethnic group, but an innumerable people from every tongue, tribe, and nation. So, from the Old Testament to the New Testament, we should think "lesser" and "greater." In other words, the lesser iteration of God's Israel was, for the most part, an ethnic group (the Israelites of old), and as such was what we might call an object lesson, pointing to the greater iteration of God's Israel, which is inclusive of... well, the terminology in the Bible is Jew and Gentile.
This concept of "lesser" and "greater" applies to many different things in the Bible:,
- lesser Israel (land), a tiny sliver of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, and greater Israel (land), the whole earth
- the lesser Law, the civil, ceremonial, and moral law given through Moses at Mt. Sinai to the Israelites, and the greater Law, the Law of Christ, the two great commandments being to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and to love your neighbor as yourself, and on these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets
- the lesser David: King David, the king of reunified Israel in the Old Testament, and the greater David, Jesus, the King of Greater Israel, God's Israel, which is inclusive of Gentiles
Much more could be said, but I think that should do... :)
Grace and peace to you, 6S!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Great question. Here is my answer.
The Old Covenant was for us, for our ego. Can we meet God's standard on our own?
This was not a one time test. For approximately 1,700 years from the time of Moses to the birth of the Baptizer, God's chosen people failed this test over and over again. Despite God sending prophet after prophet telling them to repent and punishing his people severely and repeatedly, they could not do it. Then there were 4 centuries of black out, silence. The people felt God had turned his back on them - which they most definitely deserved.
The prohibition to not mingle was to make the task of obeying God's will EASIER. God's people still failed!
The evidence is in and I believe the Old Covenant is still relevant for people new to Christianity. It serves as a 1,700 year case study. They failed. What makes you think you can satisfy God's standards on your own? A humble person should know they cannot. In fact, the divine standard was never intended for us to meet on our own.
How to solve this quagmire? It begins by realizing we are not good decision makers. We need a master, someone to be lord of our life. With this asset, with this ally, the prohibition not to mingle is no longer necessary. In fact, armed with the Holy Spirit, we make sufficient servants to spread the Good News everywhere.
Hope this helps!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
True, but that is not the way we started…..there was no “sin nature” in the human race, as they were created sinless, without defect……until Eve took something (abusing her free will) that God had claimed as his own property, tempted into self-interest by a rebel spirit masquerading as a snake…..and then, faced with divided loyalty, Adam deliberately chose to disobey his God and joined his wife in rebellion.…and here we are….
That snake suggested that the Creator was not the loving and generous Father that he had presented himself to be…the one who was formerly a faithful angel, (a “covering cherub” in the garden of Eden) made himself into the devil…..a slanderer and a liar, because he wanted “to be like God”. (he wanted to be worshipped) The woman fell for his deceptions….but Adam did not. He disobeyed God in full knowledge of what he was doing, and he understood what the penalty would be.
Have you ever wondered what would have happened if Eve had rejected the suggestions that the devil made to her? Or if Adam had chosen differently that day and remained loyal to his God instead of his disobedient wife? The fate of the human race was laid at the feet of the man, not the woman. (Romans 5:12) We would have had a completely different outcome in either case.
The actions of the holy spirit are clearly outlined in the scriptures….it is the empowering spirit of God that moves things in the direction that God wants them to go, in accord with his will and purpose.
What I find sad is the fact that most who identify as “Christians” do not have a clear grasp of God’s original purpose for the human race. This earth was never supposed to be a training ground for heaven….God already had a large family of spirit beings there that he created to dwell with him in heaven….myriads of them.…all were ”sons of God”. Why then did God create material beings who were mortals, dependent on external things to keep living, yet abundantly supplied?
All earthly creatures were endowed with procreative ability to perpetuate the ‘circle of life’…..all except humans that is…..they alone, being “created in God’s image” were designed to live forever. That is what the “tree of life” was for. Once sin entered into the humans, access to “the tree of life” was denied. A slow descent into death would follow. (Gen 3:22-24) And the ‘players’ in the first prophesy uttered by God in Gen 3:15, would remain shrouded in mystery until the coming of the foretold seed.
So what do you see as the outcome of God’s solution to the original rebellion, in accord with Isaiah 55:11?
Where are we in the outworking of God’s original purpose for this earth and mankind upon it….satan did not force God to abandon it.
In a nutshell….why are we here? And what does the future hold for the redeemed human race?
Similar threads
