Why the fall had to occur

[Dcopymope]

Was it not Adams choice to Eat from the tree???, was that Gods doing ???? And what threat, HE told them that the house of God was for prayer and men turned it into a den of thieves, whats changed, its still the same. Mens churches filled with buyers and sellers, no different than it was.

Was it not God's foreknowledge that he would eat from the tree whether he told them to or not?

 

[mjrhealth]

Was it not God's foreknowledge that he would eat from the tree whether he told them to or not?

Yep thats why we are in this body made of dust so that God had a way to redeem us back to Himself, satan and his fallen angels dont have a way, they left there first estate and have no way back, we on the other hand where made so we had one, that is what Love does,. Why are you out to make God out to be the evil one....??

 

[OzSpen]

So why did the temptation of Adam and Eve have to happen? I have been asked this question plenty of times before by both unbelievers and believers alike, and was never able to give an answer for it. But it wasn't until Aspen asked the same type of questions in the link below that it suddenly clicked in me, just hit me like a ton of bricks.

Dc,

One of the finest explanations to this question I have read is that by James Anderson, Why Did God Allow the Fall?(The Gospel Coalition, June 27 2017)

Would it be appropriate to examine each point made by Anderson?

Oz

 

[Dcopymope]

Yep thats why we are in this body made of dust so that God had a way to redeem us back to Himself, satan and his fallen angels dont have a way, they left there first estate and have no way back, we on the other hand where made so we had one, that is what Love does,. Why are you out to make God out to be the evil one....??

The only ones making God the evil one are those claiming that God wanted the fall to occur. My argument on the other hand is centered around what was obvious (to me), that the fall was happening no matter what happened in Eden, tree or no tree, just like it happened in heaven.

 

[aspen]

So what happened to :" It is not Gods will that any man perish" ?

He chooses everyone

 

[Dcopymope]

Dc,

One of the finest explanations to this question I have read is that by James Anderson, Why Did God Allow the Fall?(The Gospel Coalition, June 27 2017)

Would it be appropriate to examine each point made by Anderson?

Oz

Sure why not, after reading it, it honestly sounds just as faulty as any argument I've ever seen. According to James, the guy that wrote it, God wanted the fall to occur all because he wanted to toot his own horn, to showoff just how awesome he was in the plan of redemption that, going by his argument, should have never been necessary to begin with...........

........... Lets be honest, what would an explanation like this really sound like to an unbeliever? To them it will sound like God is an attention seeking ego maniac, and an inept douche at that, since the fall that HE wanted just to seem glorious in whoever's eyes (whose?) will land countless millions in the lake of fire.

 

[mjrhealth]

that God wanted the fall to occur

I see no one claiming that but you. Do you think God wanted the devil to oppose Him. or His angels to follow after teh devil. God gave mankind a choice and He full, well knew what would happen, so He made a way out, God desire people who love Him for who He is , angels cannot do that, how can they understand love, they where created for a purpose to serve God, we where created to be His children, and to love Him as He loves us, unconditionally, yet here we are placing all these conditions upon Gods love.

 

[mjrhealth]

He chooses everyone

But they dont all choose Him....

 

[Dcopymope]

I see no one claiming that but you.

........Um, no, I am saying he allowed it to happen because it was inevitable.

 

[mjrhealth]

........Um, no, I am saying he allowed it to happen because it was inevitable.

Than i guess the previous statement was an error???

 

[Dcopymope]

Than i guess the previous statement was an error???

What statement pal? The inevitability of the fall is the entire reason why I started this thread to begin with.

 

[mjrhealth]

that God wanted the fall to occur.

that one, wanst that long ago... abnesia maybe..

 

[Dcopymope]

that one, wanst that long ago... abnesia maybe..

The only ones making God the evil one are those claiming that God wanted the fall to occur.

That one???.........m'kay.

 

[7angels]

Its not that we needed to fall, its just that God saw that the fall was coming. When it says Satan was made perfect, it says he was made perfect in HIS ways, but not perfect like God. Being a pure spirit being doesn't make you pure like God. When God saw all he had made in six days and said it was "very good", he didn't mean very good like himself as if Adam and Eve wouldn't fall into temptation. God isn't just a pure spirit being, God is much more than that. God is light, and in him there is no darkness. Therefore it isn't possible for God to fall by reason of his very nature. If it was possible, then you wouldn't have scripture stating that Jesus never knew sin to begin with, yet he took sin upon himself as atonement.

i wonder weather or not what you say is true. Jesus came as a man and went through all that we went through and came out sinless. Jesus as a man was not even a pure spirit being but still managed to stay sinless. so if what i said is true then what you posted above is irrelevant because Jesus(according to you) was not created as well as God either and yet managed to stay sinless. in other words how God created someone is not a relevant excuse.

If I was God, how would I do it? I would do it exactly like God did it because it is the only way. Why is it the only way? Simple, it's because it was the only way that sin as a tangible threat or as a disease would ever be eliminated. You are not perfect and sinless like God because you were made perfect, nor will this be the case when we optain our glorified bodies.

have you ever wondered if the way God solves situations are the best or quickest way possible? i did a study oaths and a long story made short is that God according to scripture does not want us to grab any of His glory thus He uses things or people to do things that unless it were God would of been impossible to accomplish. but why could God not done it another way? it should be possible both scripturally and scientifically. it is like i said God does not want us to share in His glory which is why He does things this way.

also you say "it's because it was the only way that sin as a tangible threat or as a disease would ever be eliminated. You are not perfect and sinless like God because you were made perfect, nor will this be the case when we obtain our glorified bodies." you just contradicted yourself. the beginning of your quote you posted "Satan was made perfect, it says he was made perfect in HIS ways, but not perfect like God" thus you go on to say that is the reason he fell. this is just the cause of an endless cycle.

We are made sinless and perfect in Gods eyes because of Jesus Christ who destroyed sin now and forever. Just think of Jesus Christ as the immune system for your soul, as a defense against sin. Thats why God allowed the fall to occur, and why things must occur as they have and will. You need to realize this and just trust that God knew exactly what he was doing. God didn't make a mistake when he made us.

you make it sound like God created us just to sin so He could fix us properly. is God really so incompetent that He could not do it correctly at creation the first time?you make God sound like a Dr Jekyl. cut off body part here and sew on new parts. i don't know if i would want to follow a God who treated me like a ginny pig.

also have you ever asked yourself why was satan allowed to roam the earth instead of being casted into hell and bound like the angels who sinned were bound according to the book of enoch? according to God a little sin is the same as a big sin. they are all the same to God. so again why was satan let free on earth and not bound up? God is not a respecter of persons so why? if as you say you would do it the same way God would have done it then explain why satan was let loose. or are you just blowing smoke? if you claim that God's ways are far above our ways then that tells me that you would not of done things the same way as God and you lied.

i am not trying to put you down but show you that you are not thinking as God would. i see you as a person who was taught a doctrine and instead of letting the truth be revealed to yourself, you make the Word of God fit into your belief of what the doctrine means.

God bless

 

[ScottA]

So why did the temptation of Adam and Eve have to happen? I have been asked this question plenty of times before by both unbelievers and believers alike, and was never able to give an answer for it. But it wasn't until Aspen asked the same type of questions in the link below that it suddenly clicked in me, just hit me like a ton of bricks.

Link: Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

Link: Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer

The question often varies from one person to another. Some may ask why God put the tree in the garden if he didn't want them eating from it in the first place. Others may ask why God allows suffering to occur if he is such a gentle spirit, and if the suffering of this current world will pass away and not even cross our mind as Isaiah stated, then what was the point in God sending us through the tribulations of this current world in the first place?



I answer these questions in a way that I have yet to see being answered anywhere else, and made a six minute YouTube video about it just for the hell of it. They are the types of questions most Christians have a hard time answering. I've given the same answer to unbelievers and they seem to be receiving it pretty well, more or less, so the way I see it, this is the only way you can answer it.

Your answer is good, but it need not be so wordy. The simpler answer, is that the fall occurred to establish God's glory: No fall, no glory.

Isaiah 66:18
“For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.

 

[mjrhealth]

Your answer is good, but it need not be so wordy. The simpler answer, is that the fall occurred to establish God's glory: No fall, no glory.

Isaiah 66:18
“For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory.

Well thats simple enough.

 

[aspen]

What is glorious about throwing your children off a cliff just so you can save them?

 

[mjrhealth]

What is glorious about throwing your children off a cliff just so you can save them?

He didnt throw them they jumped....

 

[Dcopymope]

What is glorious about throwing your children off a cliff just so you can save them?

Exactly, and then end up tossing countless millions in the fire anyway ALL because you wanted to feel special and toot your own horn.

He didnt throw them they jumped....

Because he WANTED them to according to you people.........but lets not forget folks, he LOVES you unconditionally. There is not a chance in hell I would ever use your arguments to unbelievers, has yet to work out for me.

 

[Dcopymope]

God bless

You said: "you make it sound like God created us just to sin so He could fix us properly. is God really so incompetent that He could not do it correctly at creation the first time?"

My answer to your entire response in red is this: If Jesus Christ was never born and if we were to skip to the new heaven and earth in the Biblical narrative, his creation will STILL run into the exact same problem it is now despite this current fallen world no longer being remembered or even coming to mind, because the disease of sin was never addressed or destroyed. That is why things had to occur the way they have. This isn't God being incompetent, he let it happen because it was the only way. My argument makes verses like this with its far reaching implications even more profound. God shares his glory with no one because there is only one God, and there is none other like him, nor shall there ever be after him.

(Romans 8:18-23) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. {19} For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. {20} For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, {21} Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. {22} For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. {23} And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."