Why the fall had to occur

[ScottA]

what is crazy to me is that this is all explained in the Book, that we live in an illusion, but you have taken that to mean that we aren't actually alive, and nothing here is "real" bc of this, when nothing could be further from truth imo. The kingdom is to be manifest here, in creation, and the earth is not going anywhere, for a long time at least, ok, the physical plane is our domain, and we still confidently sit in chairs even though we know now that they are 99.99999% empty space

"Have you not read"...that "the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men", and "then comes the end?"

 

[Dcopymope]

"Have you not read"...that "the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men", and "then comes the end?"

Your point?

 

[bbyrd009]

If we are of the world we should walk in it. But if we are not of the world and have received the Holy Spirit, we should walk in the spirit, and "deny" the world and the hold it once held us captive.

leaving the world is great, but it seems that you have left the earth too, wadr. I see shades of rapture doctrine here, only by another name, tbh. Lots of believers praying for that literal rapture, too, i guess.

don't get me wrong, imo you are great guy, with a God complex, but hey i got one too, i don't fault you for that lol. Only i cannot see how today can possibly have any relevance to you in this model. Imo "God knows the end from the beginning" has been taken to an extreme here, and the fact that a parent basically knows the end from the beginning in one of their children as well--only in more recognizable form--is being ignored.

 

[bbyrd009]

Your point?

exactly. The world passing away has been conflated with the eventual destruction of the earth, billions of years from now, and the Party in the Sky with Jesus after Death is just arrived at by a different route, that's all imo

 

[bbyrd009]

No, my posts are full of quotes of scripture, often times back to back, and sometimes only a quote. Other times I do not use quotation marks, and perhaps should say as Jesus did for the same reason, "Have you not read?"

If you have not seen me quoting scripture...you should get that checked.

the difference being that you selectively choose to answer which Scripture you will, and you cannot face other Scripture that contests your pov, wadr. You quote Scripture when pressed, yes, but even then it is not really relevant to the discussion, it seems like. We either get bogged down by a single word, or get a flood of Scripture that you believe is relevant, but that you are not really making relevant to anyone else, i guess? A witness for your pov, iow, is also lacking, and the fruit thing has already been buried, right

And i note some other statements, made in unguarded moments, a la "i am the way, and the truth, and if you don't understand me you just aren't listening hard enough," stuff like that. I'm not meaning to be discouraging here, but no witnesses and no fruit should tell you something, imo.

and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

see, he is alive, right here on earth, having left the world and returned to his father, therefore

What is crazy...is that He has done such a great job of producing us in image form, that we think we are alive...when He says we are not.

becomes inaccurate at best, unless you can witness that having been reborn you no longer have to eat, you can walk on water, walk through walls, etc, which i guess even you would not be prepared to admit, right.

 

[bbyrd009]

an obvious conclusion in your model is that murder would be irrelevant, and might even be a blessing to the murdered, i guess, which btw is the path that more than one psychopath has adopted, not saying that you are one

 

[bbyrd009]

also, you have to deny that you can change the future in any way too, i guess

 

[ScottA]

um, no, sorry, he does not mean what you imply, you seem to anticipate seeing God revealed somewhere other than right here, and somewhen other than today, as John meant imo

If you mean as in returning to the world for all to see (or any to see), then it is you who do not know what John meant.

 

[ScottA]

Your point?

I refer you to bbyrd09 ...it was his point. My reply, is that the he was wrong according to the word of God..

 

[bbyrd009]

If you mean as in returning to the world for all to see (or any to see), then it is you who do not know what John meant.

well, seems to me that the Prodigal Son left the world, and returned to his father, right. But he did not leave the earth to do this, right? So i do not see any "returning to the world" like you interpret, not that i can prove my pov here or anything. If you interpret that the Prodigal somehow left the earth there, then bam go with that

 

[bbyrd009]

I refer you to bbyrd09 ...it was his point. My reply, is that the he was wrong according to the word of God..

imo what he means is that you have now provided a flood of Bible, that cannot really be connected to the point. I am fam with some concepts needing to be extrapolated, ok, that can't be established with just one verse; but usually in those cases one can do so by providing several vv from diff Books that all speak to the same concept, or seem to. Not what you have done there iow. but i reiterate that i am not seeking a judgement here, ok; i am open to impressions from Scripture as well. Bam provide a connection to your passage Quote there, if you can, i would like to see it.

 

[bbyrd009]

what is crazy to me is that this is all explained in the Book, that we live in an illusion, but you have taken that to mean that we aren't actually alive, and nothing here is "real" bc of this, when nothing could be further from truth imo. The kingdom is to be manifest here, in creation, and the earth is not going anywhere, for a long time at least, ok, the physical plane is our domain, and we still confidently sit in chairs even though we know now that they are 99.99999% empty space

"Have you not read"...that "the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men", and "then comes the end?"

I refer you to bbyrd09 ...it was his point. My reply, is that the he was wrong according to the word of God..

iow how does quote 2 there even acknowledge quote 1, or rebut it?

it seems to reiterate that the earth is passing away, when it is the world that is passing away, not the earth.
The earth is going to be destroyed someday--not pass away, imo--true enough, but this is not the same as the world, passing away. The New Jerusalem comes to earth, iow

 

[bbyrd009]

fwiw i am noticing a lot of believers now who have no idea of any functional difference in Erets and Kosmou, and many conflate the two; we even get "Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth," a complete heresy. Of course these same ppl will blithely pray "on earth as it is in heaven" too i guess

 

[ScottA]

leaving the world is great, but it seems that you have left the earth too, wadr. I see shades of rapture doctrine here, only by another name, tbh. Lots of believers praying for that literal rapture, too, i guess.

don't get me wrong, imo you are great guy, with a God complex, but hey i got one too, i don't fault you for that lol. Only i cannot see how today can possibly have any relevance to you in this model. Imo "God knows the end from the beginning" has been taken to an extreme here, and the fact that a parent basically knows the end from the beginning in one of their children as well--only in more recognizable form--is being ignored.

"God knows the end from the beginning" is the teachings of men, and just a less than accurate attempt of trying to explain the timelessness of God. But they were not telling the whole truth. But I tell you the whole truth, and you refer to them. lol

 

[bbyrd009]

But I tell you the whole truth, and you refer to them

so iow listen to you, and ignore the prophets and the Bible?

you have the whole truth, do ya?

you are not deceived at all, huh

 

[bbyrd009]

I declare the end from the beginning, and from long ago what is not yet done, saying: My plan will take place, and I will do all My will.

 

[ScottA]

the difference being that you selectively choose to answer which Scripture you will, and you cannot face other Scripture that contests your pov, wadr. You quote Scripture when pressed, yes, but even then it is not really relevant to the discussion, it seems like. We either get bogged down by a single word, or get a flood of Scripture that you believe is relevant, but that you are not really making relevant to anyone else, i guess? A witness for your pov, iow, is also lacking, and the fruit thing has already been buried, right

And i note some other statements, made in unguarded moments, a la "i am the way, and the truth, and if you don't understand me you just aren't listening hard enough," stuff like that. I'm not meaning to be discouraging here, but no witnesses and no fruit should tell you something, imo.

I can and do face other scripture...none of which "contest' my pov, but it is rather the person who contests and pits one scripture against another without understanding.

As for what is relevant, it the issue is unresolved in your mind, you are in no position to make that statement. And I will tell you, if I have brought it into the issue, it is relevant. My pov is the same truth you have read of, only in other words and in plain language rather than in parable. But God's use of parables is not against me, but for me.

God is my witness.

 

[bbyrd009]

My pov is the same truth you have read of

ok, got it, you got the truth, everyone should just listen to you, gee never even heard that one before

God is my witness.

imo God is witnessing against you, and the way to establish truth has already been declared.
Only you are not going to like it i guess

 

[ScottA]

see, he is alive, right here on earth, having left the world and returned to his father, therefore

It is a parable ("If you do not understand this parable, how will you understand all parables?"). But who can make a parable and include what is also what is real within what is imaginary? If "real" proof is your requirement, you are out of luck, as "all things come in parables."

becomes inaccurate at best, unless you can witness that having been reborn you no longer have to eat, you can walk on water, walk through walls, etc, which i guess even you would not be prepared to admit, right.

You misunderstand, we do not do these things, but Christ who lives in us. But don't expect that Christ will grant you a do-over of His time in the world - "the world sees me no more."

 

[ScottA]

an obvious conclusion in your model is that murder would be irrelevant, and might even be a blessing to the murdered, i guess, which btw is the path that more than one psychopath has adopted, not saying that you are one

You have me all wrong. How many times have I told you that you misunderstand or are not listening? Now you surmise what is not true of me.

On the contrary, all things are relevant. But all things are not real with God and only written, a mere image of the truth, whether good or evil, manifest for a witness in the judgement. All things are the presentation of evidence. But evidence is not the act...nor is the world anything more.