Why The Pre Trib Rapture Is God's Judgment On His House First

[JesusIsFaithful]

But the children of disobedience is a term that refers to the spirit of the antichrist, nonbelievers. It has nothing to do with believers.

Eph 2:1-10 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesha and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I would submit that Eph 5:5-7 is about nonbelievers.

And so the warning falls falt in Ephesians 5:7 about not being partakers with them? I do not think so. This applies to believers living in sin and running as the world runs.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Believers can sow to the works of the flesh or to the fruits of the Spirit. What they build on that foundation will be judged as any defiling the temple of God ( which is our body ), him will God destroy ( which means physical death ), and if alive when the Bridegroom comes back; they will become castaways into the great tribulation unless they repent with His help before He comes.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Loss of salvation is never at stake for a saved believer; but the loss of crowns is not the only thing he can lose because he can lose his place at the Marriage Supper table to be held in His honour.

This is where the warning of not being partakers with the comes in since the wrath of God will fall on the children of disobedience. One can read Hebrews 12 th chapter and see the Father performing such a scourging when they do not run that race and why they should not refuse lest they find themselves received as vessels unto dishonour in His House at a later date.
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[ATP]

And so the warning falls falt in Ephesians 5:7 about not being partakers with them? I do not think so. This applies to believers living in sin and running as the world runs.

Eph 5:5-7 is definitely not about believers. You disregarded 1 Cor 6:11 and Eph 2:2. The sons of disobedience is not referring to believers.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Eph 5:5-7 is definitely not about believers. You disregarded 1 Cor 6:11 and Eph 2:2. The sons of disobedience is not referring to believers.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Verse 7 is addressing believers; yes or no? If yes, this warning to believers has to be legit that believers could be partakers of God's wrath that is coming on the unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Verse 8 warns of defrauding the brethren because they can be defrauded if they live as sinners. Verse 11 was a reminder of what had happened when they were saved to not defile themselves by living a life of sin. Otherwise, why give this warning to believers about defrauding the brethrens?

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph. 2:2 is addressing believers about how they were before they were saved and that the life they had lived before they were saved would have subjected them to God's wrath as other sinners were. Therefore, ergo, if a saved believer continues to live a life of sin, they can be subjected to the same wrath of God on earth as the unbelievers will be.

 

[ATP]

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

Verse 7 is addressing believers; yes or no? If yes, this warning to believers has to be legit that believers could be partakers of God's wrath that is coming on the unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Verse 8 warns of defrauding the brethren because they can be defrauded if they live as sinners. Verse 11 was a reminder of what had happened when they were saved to not defile themselves by living a life of sin. Otherwise, why give this warning to believers about defrauding the brethrens?

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph. 2:2 is addressing believers about how they were before they were saved and that the life they had lived before they were saved would have subjected them to God's wrath as other sinners were. Therefore, ergo, if a saved believer continues to live a life of sin, they can be subjected to the same wrath of God on earth as the unbelievers will be.

I need to get something clear first. If these scriptures are referring to believers not inheriting the kingdom of God, then it is also saying we can lose our salvation. Is that what you are agreeing too.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I need to get something clear first. If these scriptures are referring to believers not inheriting the kingdom of God, then it is also saying we can lose our salvation. Is that what you are agreeing too.

Inheritance is not the same thing as salvation.

The loss of rewards is more than just crowns for not running that race. An unrepentant believer can become a castaway as in left behind to face the fire coming on the earth, and the subsequent great tribulation... unless they repent by looking to Him for His help.

If someone tales away from the book of Revelations, the his part or protion is taken out of the city. He loses his inheritance of being a vessel of gold and silver in the House of God as a vessel unto honour.

The vessels of wood and earth are in His House as they are vessels unto dishonour and their inheritance is to be kings and priests to reign during the milleniel reign of Christ. That means they are marrying and given in marriage. They are spread out all over the world in serving the King of kings. This is akin to the prodigal son losing his first inheritance of dwelling in that New Jerusalem, but given a ring and a robe.

The raptured saints live in New Jerusalem. They will tell of all He has done for them while showing off the city God has built to the coming generations that visit New Jerusalemduring the milleniel reign of Christ.

May God cause the increase for you to see this..

 

[ATP]

Inheritance is not the same thing as salvation.

May God cause the increase for you to see this..

It's not? Hmm...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

May God cause the increase for you to see this..

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

It's not? Hmm...

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5 NIV Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

May God cause the increase for you to see this..

There are two kinds of inheritance;

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

See how those believers that did not depart from iniquity are still vessels in His House but are vessels unto dishonour?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus denying the workers of iniquity here is not Him testifying that they are not saved, but by their works of iniquity in denying Him, they are being denied; unapproved, and thus reprobates from attending the Marriage Supper as vessels unto honour in His House.

Titus 1: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

There is confirmation that there are two kinds of inheritance; the vessels of gold and silver aka the glorified celestiel bodies are the pre trib raptured saints as the vessels of wood and earth, aka the glorified terrestriel bodies are the post trib resurrected saints.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.


How a saved believer receives his inheritance in the kingdom of heaven is in question as it depends if he is running the race by faith in the Son of God as His Good Shepherd to help him lay aside every weight & sin to abide in Him & His words as His disciple to be chosen for the Marriage Supper as many are called but few are chosen to attend.

 

[ATP]

How a saved believer receives his inheritance in the kingdom of heaven is in question as it depends if he is running the race by faith in the Son of God.....

Isa 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Isa 64:6 NIV All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Please explain the message below;

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

What day is Paul referring to if it isn;t the actual day when God shall judge His House for what believers have built on that foundation at the pre tribulational rapture event that precedes the 7 years great tribulation?

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

How does a believer suffer loss in that day that is by fire, and yet he is still saved?

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

What can defile a temple of God which is our body other than by what a believer builds on that foundation; either by sowing to the works of the flesh or by engaging in dead works of iniquity that deny Him?

What is destroyed for a believer failing to look to Him as their Good Shepherd to depart from iniquity? The physical body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


So yes.. we are clean when we got saved, but a believer can still defile the temple of God by what they build on that foundation; and although he be left behind to face the fire coming on the earth, that foundation still remains and that is why he is still saved.
Non-believers cannot defile the temple of God when they do not have the Holy Spirit in them. Only saved believers can do that.

 

[ATP]

Please explain the message below;

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

What day is Paul referring to if it isn;t the actual day when God shall judge His House for what believers have built on that foundation at the pre tribulational rapture event that precedes the 7 years great tribulation?

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

How does a believer suffer loss in that day that is by fire, and yet he is still saved?

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

What can defile a temple of God which is our body other than by what a believer builds on that foundation; either by sowing to the works of the flesh or by engaging in dead works of iniquity that deny Him?

What is destroyed for a believer failing to look to Him as their Good Shepherd to depart from iniquity? The physical body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


So yes.. we are clean when we got saved, but a believer can still defile the temple of God by what they build on that foundation; and although he be left behind to face the fire coming on the earth, that foundation still remains and that is why he is still saved.
Non-believers cannot defile the temple of God when they do not have the Holy Spirit in them. Only saved believers can do that.

I'm not refuting that we will be judged for our works, either right now or at the Bema Seat.

Consider it a mystery that God allows the devil to tempt us, and then shows us grace thereafter.

Why does God allow testing?...

James 1:2-18 NIV Trials and Temptations

2Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

9Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. 10But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower. 11For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business.

12Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

16Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Rom 2:4 NIV We don't repent because of our own works, rather we repent because of God's kindness towards us. Your thoughts.

- ATP

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I'm not refuting that we will be judged for our works, either right now or at the Bema Seat.

Consider it a mystery that God allows the devil to tempt us, and then shows us grace thereafter.

Why does God allow testing?...

Rom 2:4 NIV We don't repent because of our own works, rather we repent because of God's kindness towards us. Your thoughts.

- ATP

Romans 9th chapter at this link; The quoted portion below supports my view as to why those left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event will be the vessels unto mercy that would show the power of God in salvation for even those that just believe in His name.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+9&version=KJV

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[ATP]

The quoted portion below supports my view as to why those left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event..

Rom 9 is referring to two different people. It's comparing believers to nonbelievers. Verse 22 speaks of nonbelievers...

Rom 9:22 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

However, believers are not appointed to wrath...

1 Thess 5:9-10 NIV For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

will be the vessels unto mercy that would show the power of God in salvation for even those that just believe in His name.

The vessels aren't the one's showing the power of God. God himself is showing his own power through himself. His wrath, His power.

Rom 9:22 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Rom 9 is referring to two different people. It's comparing believers to nonbelievers. Verse 22 speaks of nonbelievers...

Rom 9:22 NIV What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

Are you sure?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. KJV

How can the vessels unto dishonour BE in His House if they were unbelievers? How is it that by departing from iniquity is how one goes back to being a vessel unto honour in His House?

Sometimes God gives a plumbline to see whom among the believers will keep the faith from those that resort to their own power or chase after other gods which did occur in 1994 with the Promise Keepers' movement and the "holy laughter" movement across all the denomenational churches in USA; the false prophets that gathered grapes of thorns & figs of thistles; being ecumenical in nature.

This is why God is coming to judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Since God is coming to judge His House first, 1 Peter 4:17-19, it stands to reason why the pre tribulational rapture will come in dealing with the falling away from the faith by receiving those abiding in Him & His words as His disciples to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as no saved believer with any unrepentance will be eating there.

I don't accept your premise.

I think your "stand on reason" is not reasonable in light of Scripture. You would have two Raptures, as it were: one before the one 'seven' and the other at some other time after the one 'seven' has started.

Verse 17 is predicated upon verse 14 & 16.

If you are reviled for the name of Christ... and, furthermore,
but if anyone suffers as a Christian...

Thus the righteous are saved and the evil doer is a question mark emphasizing righteous living - i.e., don't be a murderer, thief, evil doer, troublesome meddler, and to that Paul would add fornicator, adulterer, drunkard, etc.

We are to be held accountable for our words and actions, but the judging we receive does not include God's Wrath, nor is it the final judgment to Hell.

In that vein of eternal rewards, we are not to be judged innocent, because each of us sins, but not guilty by the atoning Blood of Christ Jesus.

So I can understand First Peter chapter 4 with the understanding that we are judged by the world first and suffer under their hatred for Christ as we are persecuted - yet: what awaits the evil doer is worse.

 

[ATP]

Are you sure?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. KJV

How can the vessels unto dishonour BE in His House if they were unbelievers? How is it that by departing from iniquity is how one goes back to being a vessel unto honour in His House?

Sometimes God gives a plumbline to see whom among the believers will keep the faith from those that resort to their own power or chase after other gods which did occur in 1994 with the Promise Keepers' movement and the "holy laughter" movement across all the denomenational churches in USA; the false prophets that gathered grapes of thorns & figs of thistles; being ecumenical in nature.

This is why God is coming to judge His House first at the pre tribulational rapture event.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Nothing has changed here.
It's still comparing believers to nonbelievers in his church.
Thus the title of 2 Tim 2:14-26 is "Dealing With False Teachers".
Yes, there are false teachers in his church.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I don't accept your premise.

I think your "stand on reason" is not reasonable in light of Scripture. You would have two Raptures, as it were: one before the one 'seven' and the other at some other time after the one 'seven' has started.

There is only one rapture, and that is before the great tribulation; that's Christ the firstfruits.

The other is the resurrection at the end of the great tribulation as they be Christ's at His coming. They are not really raptured because they are not going to meet the Lord in the air when the Lord has already touched down on earth with the raptured saints.

Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Here is proof that the raptured saints return with Jesus to do battle against Satan & his armies and yet...the resurrection of the saints as described as coming out of the great tribulation under the mark of the beast system was AFTER the defeat of Satan and his armies when Satan was cast into the pit.

Revelations 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So I do not really believe there are two raptures in all respect, but one rapture being the first of the three harvests that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven; with the second being the resurrection at the end of the great tribulation and the third harvest after the end of the milleniel reign of Christ which is after smal season when the last defeat of Satan has occurred.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Nothing has changed here.
It's still comparing believers to nonbelievers in his church.
Thus the title of 2 Tim 2:14-26 is "Dealing With False Teachers".
Yes, there are false teachers in his church.

I reckon I can only pray for you that the Lord will help you look at those passages again.

You do know that the prodigal son gave up his first inheritance for wild living, right? He can never have that first inheritance back. So like Esau losing his birthright over a meal, this foreshadows this event when God judges His House in how vessels unto honour are destroyed in becoming vessels unto dishonour; which are the vessels of the wood and the earth as that is akin to the prodigal son returning and being given a robe and a ring.

Just as the loyal son complained about the prodigal son, the father says something to the elder son that the prodigal son does not have; all that he has was his; and so it was not the same for the prodigal son. There is a celestiel inheritance being liken unto angels that never die and neother are they marrying nor given in marriage, and then there are the glory of the terrestriel inheritance... where those left behind shall serve as kings and priests for the milleniel reign of Christ as they will be marrying and given in marriage where there will be a forthcoming generations that will be tested for the last harvest that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven..

 

[ATP]

I reckon I can only pray for you that the Lord will help you look at those passages again.

You quoted 2 Tim 2:19-21, but have not read the passage in its full context. It's full context is verse 14 through 26.

1. "Departed from the truth" is referring to nonbelievers. Rom 1:18-32 NIV
2. Either you confess the name of the Lord or not Rom 10:9-10 NIV. Hymenaeus and Philetus did not.
3. Hymenaeus and Philetus needed to repent because they were without knowledge of the truth.

17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
18who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
19Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
25Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

You do know that the prodigal son gave up his first inheritance for wild living, right? He can never have that first inheritance back. So like Esau losing his birthright over a meal, this foreshadows this event when God judges His House in how vessels unto honour are destroyed in becoming vessels unto dishonour; which are the vessels of the wood and the earth as that is akin to the prodigal son returning and being given a robe and a ring.

Just as the loyal son complained about the prodigal son, the father says something to the elder son that the prodigal son does not have; all that he has was his; and so it was not the same for the prodigal son. There is a celestiel inheritance being liken unto angels that never die and neother are they marrying nor given in marriage, and then there are the glory of the terrestriel inheritance... where those left behind shall serve as kings and priests for the milleniel reign of Christ as they will be marrying and given in marriage where there will be a forthcoming generations that will be tested for the last harvest that makes up the whole of the kingdom of heaven..

I would submit that Esau existed in the Old Testament, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit had not occurred then.

What do I mean by that, when I say there was no indwelling of the Holy Spirit then. What am I saying here?

 

[Wormwood]

But 2 Thess 2:3 states that there will be a "man" of lawlessness. There is the "spirit" of the antichrist and then there is the "man" himself that sets up his own personal temple.

ATP,
The NIV uses future verbs in this section which is an error. The verbs are present participles indicating ongoing actions of the "man of lawlessness" and not a future action. Whoever this "man" was or is, he was doing his lawless work in Paul's day. He will be revealed and destroyed before the end, but he was at work in the day of Paul. Thus, I don't think Paul had a future person in mind. He had a present evil at work that would be revealed before the end.

You can believe what you like, but in order for what you believe to be true, then the first Jewish Revolt, which didn't add up to even the status of conflict of outright war during the Pax Romana, was worse than WWII and the Holocaust... which is wasn't.

I am always wary when someone tells me that some aspect of prophecy is "clear."

Its clear that Jesus said that not one of "these stones" would be left on another. I don't doubt the final judgment will be similar to the destruction of the temple in 70AD...perhaps a dress rehearsal. But to say that Jesus isn't referring to 70AD is to completely rip the comments of Jesus out of their context. He is referring to the present temple his followers are looking at and responding to their question about when it will be torn down...and the end of the age. That much is very clear.

 

[StanJ]

ATP,
The NIV uses future verbs in this section which is an error. The verbs are present participles indicating ongoing actions of the "man of lawlessness" and not a future action. Whoever this "man" was or is, he was doing his lawless work in Paul's day. He will be revealed and destroyed before the end, but he was at work in the day of Paul. Thus, I don't think Paul had a future person in mind. He had a present evil at work that would be revealed before the end.

Actually not factual WW....Mounce says; By the combination of this verb with other terms, a variety of meaning results, which, however, is due, not to a change of meaning in the verb, but to the adjuncts. Ὁ ἐρχόμενος, He who is coming, the expected Messiah.

Paul is indeed referring to FUTURE events.

 

[ATP]

The verbs are present participles indicating ongoing actions of the "man of lawlessness" and not a future action.

I don't think Paul had a future person in mind.

If it's not a future action or future person then why is 2 Thess 2:1-12 about the Day of the Lord? B)

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.