With So Many Denominations...

[Philip James]

Still haven't found what I'm looking for. Someone, please say something that only you would say.

Hello Barny,

Not I only, but all my brothers and sisters:

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I totally agree with you that we are living in the last days. Revelation teaches us that there are God's people still hanging out in Babylon...a composite of false churches. So in all churches there are some who are genuine believers, but are possibly like you, grappling with their identity and wondering where to turn because they are uncomfortable with the doctrines and/or practices if those they are presently affiliated with.
So if we are going to be true to our faith and witness, we are required to invite those struggling ones... Deceived ones... Conflicted ones... Out of Babylon. The question then arises... If we are to invite them out, into what will we invite them?
And if your identity is clouded, and obscure, and confused as the meaning of Babylon intimates, them where are you to go? The answer is to truth. Where there is no confusion. Where there is harmony and peace. And you won't find it. Because at present there is no such entity, but the time is coming when such an entity will exist, just before the second coming God's people will be united in one another and the holy Spirit Will be ministering through them with even more power than He did after Pentecost. But at the moment those people, although maybe belong to one church but imperfect, have others outside approaching where they are. Revelation tells us who they are. Twice. Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 14:12. They have faith in Jesus and they have the faith of Jesus. They keep His commandments. And they have the gift of prophecy. But don't be fooled by counterfeits. This church isn't popular. Satan hates this particular church with a vengeance. Revelation tells us this remnant, the seed of the woman, will be the target of a war. Even other Christian churches will hold this remnant with suspicion and have grave doubts as to it's validity. But the evidence of God's blessing is there for all to see if they would only look. An influence far greater in the world than would be thought humanly possible with so few, such humble beginnings, and with such meagre means. Yet it will also be characterised by growth. Yet those joining with it will be persecuted and abused and caused to separate from family and friends... And in many cases even employment. And their former churches and associates will tell them they are joining a cult...a sect...a false movement born in lies.
Such is the legacy and character of the church you are looking for. First I would suggest you pray.

People persecute individuals / groups which are perceived to be different from themselves. It's a symptom of the persecutors being flawed sinful humans, not evidence that those being persecuted are right (or wrong or whatever).

 

[Brakelite]

People persecute individuals / groups which are perceived to be different from themselves. It's a symptom of the persecutors being flawed sinful humans, not evidence that those being persecuted are right (or wrong or whatever).

KJV Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This is not the action of flawed sinful people. This is war. This is unreasoned illogical unfounded hatred against a people for no valid reason other than they hold the truth. It's open at times and it's subtle at times, it's malevolent at times and it's ingratiating at times. But it's war. Not some emotional passing diversion.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

KJV Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This is not the action of flawed sinful people. This is war. This is unreasoned illogical unfounded hatred against a people for no valid reason other than they hold the truth. It's open at times and it's subtle at times, it's malevolent at times and it's ingratiating at times. But it's war. Not some emotional passing diversion.

You misunderstand me.
Are only the righteous persecuted?

 

[OzSpen]

With all the many Christian denominations and sects out there, how can one know which one is closest to teaching the truth about Jesus and the Gospel, especially if they all claim to be arriving at truth through basically the same method?

And to those who would answer that it doesn't matter because we must arrive at the truth on our own:

a) Who, honestly, actually does that? We're all influenced by teachers to some degree, and we're affected by our environment, experiences, upbringing and, most hopefully, the Holy Spirit, Himself. And doesn't the Bible Itself even suggest that at least some or most of us have to be taught?; and

b) If we're cautioned not to forsake the assembling of ourselves together, especially near the end of time (and if we aren't close now I don't even want to imagine what "close" looks like), is it really God's will that we should have no place to go on a regular basis to meet and worship with others who believe as we do?

I've noticed that when people fiercely protect a doctrine, it's usually one that seems to have (seemingly) conflicting evidence even from the Bible alone.

If it seems like I'm encouraging skepticism, nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm looking for practical, critically-reasoned, non-canned answers to real problems (real, at least, as I see it).

I woke up one day when I was 23 years old and realized that I just believed what my family believed about God. A, B, C, 1, 2, 3--right down the line.

I believe Christians ought to believe the same thing about how Jesus saves us and what, if anything, we owe Him. I believe the Bible predicts it. But I don't believe we should treat each other unkindly while working toward the unity of the faith.

The Information age has produced a multi-generational group of ultra-sensitive (non)communicators.

I'm hoping this community proves to be the exception to the rule. I'm confident that by God's grace it will.

Barney,

I consider consider this is the best biblical su mmary on how to choose the truth is Acts 17:11 ( NIV).

Oz

 

[BarneyFife]

You are correct. So the question then becomes, What should we be looking for?


The Five-Fold Ministry
Ephesians Chapter 4 (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


The Fruit of the Spirit
Galatians Chapter 5 (KJV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


The Gifts of the Spirit
1 Corinthians Chapter 12 (KJV)
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV)
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.


We see that God is the One who placed the above in His Church. And we're even told why He did. However, not everyone believes that. But, I've never met anyone who doesn't believe it who can provide Scripture(s) for when, where OR why God removes any of it from His Church. Granted, the churches of the wide gate and broad way do NOT embrace all of the above. However, the one true Church that Jesus established (the strait gate and narrow way) certainly does.

God Bless!

Sounds awfully Pauline-centric.

 

[BarneyFife]

lotta frustrated preachers in here lol; maybe you are here to guide us?

Not me, Brother. The Word. Men lead men astray. Usually, when I start to feel a kinship with a teacher or preacher, I move on. Some are undeniably sound. But even those have flaws. It's to be expected. If I find one who appears to have none, I will run!

 

[BarneyFife]

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you" Luke 17:21

The Gospel is always best served by Jesus, I always say.

 

[BarneyFife]

I believe I went through a very similar time as you. I woke up in my late teens with the thought. "Am I a Christian only because I was brought up this way? If Jesus is the truth and I was brought up in a Islamic home - would I be open enough to question what I was taught and find the truth, or would I stay in my ignorant religious beliefs and be hellbound? But likewise - if Islam is the real truth and because I've been brought up Christian - am I open minded enough to find the truth if what I believe is wrong?".

This took me on a journey to find truth. A very long story short - this journey brought me to the scriptures, the uniqueness (from so many perspectives) of the bible, and that the bible can be trusted above all else. From there - my faith is built on the word, which all scripture points to Christ - and thus my faith - which was no longer built on what I was brought up to believe - but one I own myself.

I encourage you with your openness, and desire to seek truth. Some of my brief thoughts on your question:

#1 Seek God and put your trust in Him. He is bigger than your faults and poor logic - so if you're willing to be humble, honest and willing to be corrected I believe He will bring you out of any deceptions you may believe and into truth. Time with Him is important.

#2 Find out what you believe and why? Do you believe the bible is the word of God? Why? Having an understanding of this is foundational to the rest of my points.

#3 Be willing to consider yourself wrong or question the things you believe, and turn to scripture to see if those things are true (as it will be your unmovable reference point). Don't be prideful in believing that you can't be deceived but rather understand that all of us can be deceived if we let our pride get in the way.

#4 Keep an eye out for contradictions in scripture, or scripture that is ignored by these commentators, churches, etc. I find that most times people are wrong they take scripture in a way that another verse will contradict what they're saying - or they have no choice but to ignore certain scripture, and they will now answer questions on certain scripture or ignore completely.

(In this - all men are fallible and will make mistakes. I've had men I respect greatly make these same mistakes of omissions of scripture. To me - it's not that they are trying to deceive, but that because they are flawed in that particular point - it's God's grace exposing that flaw even though they mean well).

#4 Scripture, scripture, scripture. I know you're asking for something that only I would say - but scripture is the foundation reference. But even so - keep in mind that the problem with scripture is that we can misunderstand it (which is why I mention point #4 - it helps us to keep on our toes). All these conflicts you see - many believe their 'take' on scripture is correct. #4 is a great way for us to be self-honest and how to self-evaluate and to see if our take really is correct. (Conflicting scripture reveals a problem in how we're understanding it - not that scripture actually conflicts itself).

#5 Always be honest. Don't think you're doing God a favor by hiding something to make Him look good, or your understanding of scripture. Be honest with your testimony and witness. If you have to deceive, exaggerate, etc to make a point - then it's not of God.

#6 Be willing to hear different commentators - don't just select a small amount. Be willing to hear opposing points. If what you believe is rock - it will stand against any assault against it. If what you believe is built on sand, opposition that speaks truth will expose it quickly.

#7 All genuine questions are permissible. Be wary when people get angry at you asking questions that are genuine because they consider it heresy. If what you speak is heresy - then rather than being angry - they should be glad that you're asking the question and giving them an opportunity to expose it's flaws with truth, instead of being fearful that you've expressed a genuine question.

#8 Pursue truth - regardless of where it takes you. Jesus is the way, the life and the truth. The truth will lead you to Him - always! Don't turn to scripture to have it support what you want it to believe, or what you already believe. Turn to it to see what the writers truly expressed.

#9 Who did it first, the world or Christians? I find today that there are many tangents and people are having 'new revelation' of scripture in a way that no one has seen scripture before. However - alarmingly in many of these instances the world got it right first, and then these Christians 'woke up' to scripture revealing that. Does this really sound like the way it should be? (An example may be same sex marriage - which some churches are turning to and believe that scripture omits, or supports. Interesting how the world discovered this first, and then they find scripture to make them comfortable in a ever changing culture - instead of God revealing it to His people first). To me - this is one of the easiest warning flags to see - as to whether or not a view has truth - did the world lead the church in it?

#10 Don't trust denominations. They're built on man. Put your faith in Christ directly.

If I were calling winners...

 

[justbyfaith]

Not me, Brother. The Word. Men lead men astray. Usually, when I start to feel a kinship with a teacher or preacher, I move on. Some are undeniably sound. But even those have flaws. It's to be expected. If I find one who appears to have none, I will run!

You will know them by their fruits.

 

[Brakelite]

You misunderstand me.
Are only the righteous persecuted?

I don't think I misunderstand. What do you mean by righteous?
I think you are trying to excuse persecution as a human foible and an intellectual failing. No. Persecution is not an intellectual failing. The Pharisees who persecuted Christ were the elite religious of the day. Their hatred for Jesus was completely unreasonable and illogical. It was satanic. That is the type of persecution against God's people in the last days. Against His church. It's like Lucifers sin in heaven in the beginning. If there was a reason for it to be found, then it could be excused. But there was no valid reason... Thus no excuse. The fallen angels at least had an excuse, they were deceived. The Pharisees on the other hand were not deceived. They knew what they were doing.

 

[Illuminator]

I like JaneDoe's advice, above. Beyond that, study the roots of Christianity. The early Christian Church struggled a great deal with differing views of Jesus' message.

They struggled, but there existed among the church fathers (ECF) a general consensus of unchanging truths.

Read about the earliest Christians via church "fathers", and research the early rivals of orthodoxy.

And you will discover the ECF proved, through prayer, discernment, and 4 centuries of debate, which books belong in the Bible. The ECF also had to refute endless cycles of heresies. The ECF give us eye witness accounts of authentic beliefs and practices that are not explicitly found in the Bible, therefore a studious Christian should not readily dismiss them. They are not inspired, they are still valuable.

The main beliefs are that Jesus died for our sins, that he rose from the dead, and that we are now pure in the sight of God and will also be raised from the dead to eternal life.

I wholeheartedly agree, but just how pure we are cannot be absolutely certain until after we are dead, not before.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I don't think I misunderstand. What do you mean by righteous?
I think you are trying to excuse persecution as a human foible and an intellectual failing. No. Persecution is not an intellectual failing. The Pharisees who persecuted Christ were the elite religious of the day. Their hatred for Jesus was completely unreasonable and illogical. It was satanic. That is the type of persecution against God's people in the last days. Against His church. It's like Lucifers sin in heaven in the beginning. If there was a reason for it to be found, then it could be excused. But there was no valid reason... Thus no excuse. The fallen angels at least had an excuse, they were deceived. The Pharisees on the other hand were not deceived. They knew what they were doing.

You're really not actually addressing my point.

 

[Illuminator]

I kinda stopped worrying about denominations altogether quite a long time ago. Granted, there are denominations that I assume are going to produce certain types of churches, but within every denomination you can have some churches that have some positive things going on, and some that are quite good, while having others that are mediocre or downright abysmal.

It ends up depending upon individual leadership, and the nature and make up of a particular congregation in a given area. I remember during my college days being Pentecostal but attending a Baptist church for a time nonetheless. I just liked the way the church was run better, and the pastor seemed warmer and closer to God.

Good post. We need to stop fussing about being in the "right" denomination. We need to pull together and support and encourage one another. Enemies of humanity are burning Bibles in Portland and there has been a near media blackout. It won't stop in Portland. The time is short, and we need not be afraid. The kind of unity we need right now has nothing to do with denominations. True ecumenism does not mean giving up part of your beliefs. That's Borg theology and it will never happen. It is the love of God and for each other that sanctifies doctrinal differences. The quest for unity is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BarneyFife]

I don't think I misunderstand. What do you mean by righteous?
I think you are trying to excuse persecution as a human foible and an intellectual failing. No. Persecution is not an intellectual failing. The Pharisees who persecuted Christ were the elite religious of the day. Their hatred for Jesus was completely unreasonable and illogical. It was satanic. That is the type of persecution against God's people in the last days. Against His church. It's like Lucifers sin in heaven in the beginning. If there was a reason for it to be found, then it could be excused. But there was no valid reason... Thus no excuse. The fallen angels at least had an excuse, they were deceived. The Pharisees on the other hand were not deceived. They knew what they were doing.

The fallen angels had no excuse. They Gazed upon the glory of God unfiltered. If they had an excuse, why were they cast out of Heaven with Lucifer? If they had an excuse, do they still have one now? Why was there a lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels?

 

[BarneyFife]

You will know them by their fruits.

Fruit-bearing takes time and time is short.

 

[marksman]

Take a close look at their Statement of Faith and whether it is solidly supported by Scripture. But in order to know whether it is sound, you need to also have a good grounding in Bible and Gospel Truth.

My statement of faith is "Jesus Christ is Lord." all the other stuff is mainly to separate them from everyone else and you from them if you don't ascribe to their statement of faith.

Statements of Faith usually are quite meaningless most of the time because people rarely believe what they say. They think they do but in fact, if you look at their actions they don't.

Most churches who say they are a bible believing church are not. What they are is a church that believes their interpretation of the bible which ain't necessarily what the bible says. For example, the Bible says that the church is to be under the authority of a plurality of Elders. Most of these Bible-believing churches are under the authority of "A" pastor. Not mentioned once in scripture.

If churches focussed more on what they did than what they said we would get rid of the idea that when all is said and done, more is said than done. Churches that are wed to sermons are less likely to be a bible believing church because form takes precedent over fact.

And I always worry about churches that are "sound" because as we know, empty vessels make the most sound.

There are of course exceptions to every rule but I am not talking about the exceptions.

 

[justbyfaith]

Fruit-bearing takes time and time is short.

I am saying that if the person is bearing good fruit, that is not a reason to leave them for another pastor.

 

[bbyrd009]

In his favor?

He's a free-thinker like you are, but far too mentally undisciplined for my liking. I take you for being more solid, albeit there are only rare occasions when you choose to communicate without obfuscation.

i guess he is autistic, and a Nederlander, Swedish or whatever; which may explain the "mentally undisciplined" somewhat, although im not quite sure what you mean there; he does get a bit fanciful sometimes i guess, but seems to me his flights are clearly delineated from his historicity? I dont know how anyone could read his etymologies and not learn 100 new relevant things that they did not previously know, and are fascinated to discover? I mean the intro page meh, its a work in progress, been changed twice in the last 6 months or so, but the etymologies who can dispute?

I would def counsel that one accept the nothing-short-of-amazing historical info and take the musings as they will, although i have to admit he often makes references that elude me as well. Also, his ego is as big as a house lol. But strangely for that, he usually speaks in the Naive dialect

there are only rare occasions when you choose to communicate without obfuscation.

ha well from your pov maybe, but in all fairness on how many occasions have you asked for clarification?

 

[bbyrd009]

Fruit-bearing takes time and time is short.

um, witnessing another's fruit is instantaneous tho?

Not me, Brother. The Word.

ha well Word is heard, yeh, dunno if you have much choice in the matter lol

Usually, when I start to feel a kinship with a teacher or preacher, I move on.

huh?