Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[CoreIssue]

Why didn't Jesus remove the graveclothes which still bound Lazarus instead of saying what He did?

"And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go." John 11:44

Even though Jesus called the man out of the grave, the man was still bound by the clothing of death. Someone needed to remove that clothing other than Jesus!

Or Christ event his part and now it was their turn to accept him back to their fold.

Or maybe both and more.

 

[amadeus]

Or Christ event his part and now it was their turn to accept him back to their fold.

Or maybe both and more.

Jesus being qualified, paid the price for everyone. What that accomplished was it opened the closed door/gate into the Tree of Life. Coming out of the tomb still bound up in our own ways which when followed lead right back to the death of sin, some work needs to be done. The wrok is walking through that door/gate and actually partaking of the Tree of Life [the flesh and blood of Jesus]. But in graveclothes we cannot even get past the gatekeeper much less the King:

"And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 22:11-13

So what then would be the required "wedding garment"? Are we also speechless? There is certain a time to speak and a time to remain silent.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time.
If Jesus was not the mediator and surety from before the creation of the world, not one sinner would be saved anywhere at any time. Not one. Zero,nada.
If God had not had mercy on a multitude of sinners,electing each of them there would be no one saved as no one seeks God, no not one.psalm14:1-3,

If you are going to believe in "unconditional election" (as well as "limited atonement" and "irresistible grace"), your theology is going to have to account for this: "Then He said, 'When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about Me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And He said, 'Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of His name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ You are witnesses of all these things." Luke 24: 44-48 Or are you going to suggest that "all" doesn't mean all?

 

[friend of]

The fact that the majority of Jews rejected their true Messiah is sufficient to prove that unconditional election (so-called) is A MYTH of major proportions.

This is exactly the reason I cannot in good conscience ascribe to the works of Calvin.

 

[Phoneman777]

The great blessing if the teaching of unconditional election is a great blessing to all saints throughout time.
If Jesus was not the mediator and surety from before the creation of the world, not one sinner would be saved anywhere at any time. Not one. Zero,nada.
If God had not had mercy on a multitude of sinners,electing each of them there would be no one saved as no one seeks God, no not one.psalm14:1-3,

[QUOTE="Enoch111,

[Scripture clearly refutes unconditional election],
Here Enoch demonstrates his lack of understanding of the teaching, lets see why he misses it.

[ but you would rather promote your doctrine than believe God.]
Here is a newsflash. The doctrine is God-given and to be believed. Just because you cannot grasp it does not change anything.
[The fact that the majority of Jews rejected their true Messiah is sufficient to prove that unconditional election (so-called) is A MYTH of major proportions.]

It proves the teaching, that's what makes it ironic.

[ Did God elect Israel to represent Him on earth and to bring forth the Messiah -- the Savior of the world? Absolutely.]

God elects a nation out of all the nations. We discover that He is going to gather out some of His elect out of that one nation.



[Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth
[1] the adoption, and
[2] the glory, and
[3] the covenants, and
[4] the giving of the law, and
[5] the service of God, and
[6] the promises;
[7] Whose are the fathers, and
[8] of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9:4,5)

So this passage tells us that Israel -- ABOVE ALL NATIONS -- was highly privileged with all spiritual blessings.]

okay....


[Therefore according to so-called unconditional election, EVERY SINGLE JEW SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.]

This shows your complete lack of comprehension of what you are reading.No where does the bible teach that every physical Jew will be saved. If you studied Romans 9 in any detail you would know this, but you do not. Instead you attempt to jump in the deep end of the pool and cannot swim.

[ Instead, what do we see in Romans 9?]

Thank you lets take a look
:... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:1-3;6-8)

So, your contention that all Israel should be saved just got blown out of the water.
you are wondering why is that?

Notice the passage speaks of some being called...in Issac....that is election.

two kinds of children are spoken of.....sperma....natural descendants
teknon...spiritual children of the covenant.
Failing to understand this , plus your imbecilic desire to attack the historic faith leaves you unable to welcome truth.

[ Now the Calvinist must ask Paul why in the world are they not all Israel, which are of Israel? Should not God have unconditionally elected each and every one, after putting them into such an advantageous position?]

No all Calvinists understand God is going to save all the elect. In Romans 9 of all places this is shown. The elect REMNANT is spoken of quoting Isa1:9. It is always special when persons such as yourself not only oppose themselves but are too lazy to study and get help for yourself.


[ So we see from this glaring discrepancy that only those who obey the Gospel are elected or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30)].

Your foolish idea is not found in the text of Romans 8. Romans 8 teaches the opposite of what you suggest.

[ROMANS 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.]

Good verses that do nothing to help your story. It declares the non elect of Israel died in unbelief.

[So what Scripture teaches us is that Calvinistic Unconditional Election (the "U" of TULIP) is totally BOGUS.]
you have once again failed in your quest with your men centered ideas

Great point about Israel formerly being "elected" but now cast off with their only hope of being grafted back in being faith and acceptance of Christ. UE is just another form of Luciferian "exclusivity religion" which looks down upon everyone else, saying, "I know the path and you don't so away with you, ye profane."

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

If you are going to believe in "unconditional election" (as well as "limited atonement" and "irresistible grace"), your theology is going to have to account for this: "Then He said, 'When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about Me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And He said, 'Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of His name to all the nations, beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ You are witnesses of all these things." Luke 24: 44-48 Or are you going to suggest that "all" doesn't mean all?

Of course all who repent will be saved.

Only those elected will repent.

 

[justbyfaith]

Of course all who repent will be saved.

Only those elected will repent.

God elects people from eternity based on the choices that they make in time.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Great point about Israel formerly being "elected" but now cast off with their only hope of being grafted back in being faith and acceptance of Christ. UE is just another form of Luciferian "exclusivity religion" which looks down upon everyone else, saying, "I know the path and you don't so away with you, ye profane."

I have no idea what you are posting about.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

God elects people from eternity based on the choices that they make in time.

There is not one verse to support that fallacy

 

[justbyfaith]

There is not one verse to support that fallacy

There are actually two that I can think of (because it is no fallacy)...Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2.

 

[Phoneman777]

I have no idea what you are posting about.

My mistake. It seems you haven't figured out how to properly respond to posts.

• Put brackets around this: QUOTE
• followed by whatever someone else wrote that you wish to respond to
• Put brackets around this: /QUOTE

This will tag the other's guys words in a box so that they'll appear separate from whatever your response is. Do that as often as you like in your reply.

Money back guarantee if not fully satisfied.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Of course all who repent will be saved.

Only those elected will repent.

How can you possibly know that "only those elected will repent"? One presumes that those who prophesied, drove out demons, and did miracles in Jesus' name understood the importance of repentance. Yet Jesus said that He may say that He never knew them--that only those who do God's will are the ones who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[Phoneman777]

Scripture clearly refutes unconditional election, but you would rather promote your doctrine than believe God.

The fact that the majority of Jews rejected their true Messiah is sufficient to prove that unconditional election (so-called) is A MYTH of major proportions.

1. Did God elect Israel to represent Him on earth and to bring forth the Messiah -- the Savior of the world? Absolutely.

Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth
[1] the adoption, and
[2] the glory, and
[3] the covenants, and
[4] the giving of the law, and
[5] the service of God, and
[6] the promises;
[7] Whose are the fathers, and
[8] of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Rom 9:4,5)

So this passage tells us that Israel -- ABOVE ALL NATIONS -- was highly privileged with all spiritual blessings. Therefore according to so-called unconditional election, EVERY SINGLE JEW SHOULD HAVE BEEN SAVED.

2. Instead, what do we see in Romans 9?

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (Rom 9:1-3;6-8)

3. Now the Calvinist must ask Paul why in the world are they not all Israel, which are of Israel? Should not God have unconditionally elected each and every one, after putting them into such an advantageous position?

4. So we see from this glaring discrepancy that only those who obey the Gospel are elected or predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29,30).

ROMANS 10
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

5. So what Scripture teaches us is that Calvinistic Unconditional Election (the "U" of TULIP) is totally BOGUS.

Excellent point about Israel being elected then rejected. If UE was a thing, there's be no need of God to graft them back into anything, for their seat of Calvinistic privilege would never have been vacated.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Lady Crosstalk,

[How can you possibly know that "only those elected will repent"? One presumes that those who prophesied, drove out demons, and did miracles in Jesus' name understood the importance of repentance. Yet Jesus said that He may say that He never knew them--that only those who do God's will are the ones who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.]

Biblical repentance is granted by God.
look;

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

No one repents unless God enables them. That is why it is His mercy and grace to us, to sinners He has elected.

[One presumes that those who prophesied, drove out demons, and did miracles in Jesus' name understood the importance of repentance. ]

the unsaved ..DO NOT...understand the saving truths of repentance and faith, that is why they remain unsaved;
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/QUOTE]

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Excellent point about Israel being elected then rejected. If UE was a thing, there's be no need of God to graft them back into anything, for their seat of Calvinistic privilege would never have been vacated.

The nation was picked among all the nations

An elect remnant was going to be called from out of that one nation.

Now God is calling His elect from all over the world...
Not everyone in national Israel was elect.
Not everyone in the world is elect....

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

There are actually two that I can think of (because it is no fallacy)...Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:2.

You have no idea what biblical foreknowledge is....so you still have not one verse to support your error.

God does not need to look down a time tunnel to see or know what will happen. He knows because he foreknows he intends to save. he knows them as sinners and redeems them in mercy.

God is not a spectator waiting on man before he takes action.

 

[justbyfaith]

You have no idea what biblical foreknowledge is....so you still have not one verse to support your error.

God does not need to look down a time tunnel to see or know what will happen. He knows because he foreknows he intends to save. he knows them as sinners and redeems them in mercy.

God is not a spectator waiting on man before he takes action.

God is not a God who arbitrarily chooses some for salvation and condemns the rest.

In Calvinism, God by default chooses certain people out to be condemned to the lake of fire. They don't have a choice in the matter; they can rightly blame God for their condemnation.

In the truth of Christianity, the Lord offers to the (every) sinner salvation from sin; and if or when he rejects that salvation, he alone is responsible for his condemnation.

I choose to believe in a God that is good as the truth of Christianity proclaims, in opposition to the teachings of Calvinism.

I choose to vindicate God concerning the claims of Calvinistic teaching.

 

[friend of]

In the truth of Christianity, the Lord offers to the (every) sinner salvation from sin; and if or when he rejects that salvation, he alone is responsible for his condemnation.

Agreed. The Lord draws all men to Himself.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God is not a God who arbitrarily chooses some for salvation and condemns the rest.

In Calvinism, God by default chooses certain people out to be condemned to the lake of fire. They don't have a choice in the matter; they can rightly blame God for their condemnation.

In the truth of Christianity, the Lord offers to the (every) sinner salvation from sin; and if or when he rejects that salvation, he alone is responsible for his condemnation.

I choose to believe in a God that is good as the truth of Christianity proclaims, in opposition to the teachings of Calvinism.

I choose to vindicate God concerning the claims of Calvinistic teaching.

God chose Israel, gave them the Law covenant. In that covenant, there is a high priest who interceded solely for them. He gave them a sacrificial system to atone for their sins. No other nation during that time had a high priest to intercede for them nor did they have a sacrificial system to atone for their sins.

Now, you can either stop being god or remain in rebellion towards God. The ball is in your court.

 

[justbyfaith]

The ball is in your court.

Therefore, I have a choice. ;):cool: