Would the US government allow anyone to interpret the US constitution?

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Ronald Nolette

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so all those early Church Fathers that celebrated mass, the holy eucharist, etc... before Constantine wasn't history? ex Ignatius of Antioch (110AD), excommunicating people for the Church because they did not believe in the true presence of Jesus in the holy eucharist, Justin Martyr (155AD) describing mass in detail and the real presence in holy eucharist, etc........

Well bring these here and le us see what they say!

The Eucharist was part of Passover! Jewish believers to this day still celebrate it at Passover with now the understanding of what that particular Pita means and what that 3rd cup of wine means.

Paul never said mass, nor did His disciples. So I await to see what you bring to inform us about the se guys.
 

Prayer Warrior

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I made 2 mission trips to china! They pray for us so that materialism will not pollute us! They have their issues to deal with but I love thier heart and humility and desire for the Lord!
It's a very different mentality, isn't it? Have you ever read the book The Heavenly Man by Brother Yun?
 

Truth1945

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Well bring these here and le us see what they say!

The Eucharist was part of Passover! Jewish believers to this day still celebrate it at Passover with now the understanding of what that particular Pita means and what that 3rd cup of wine means.

Paul never said mass, nor did His disciples. So I await to see what you bring to inform us about the se guys.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

St. Martyr

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ.

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",

-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,

"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",

-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,

St. Cyprian of Carthage

"So too the the sacred meaning of the Pasch lies essentially in the fact, laid down in Exodus, that the lamb - slain as a type of Christ - should be eaten in one single home. God says the words: 'In one house shall it be eaten, ye shall not cast its flesh outside.' The flesh of Christ and the Lord's sacred body cannot be cast outside, nor have believers any other home but the one Church.",

-"The Unity of the Catholic Church". Ch.8, circa 249-258 A.D.,


A lot more early church father writings about he Holy Eucharist:

Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
 

Ronald Nolette

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Ignatius of Antioch

"Consider how contrary to the mind of God are the heterodox in regard to the grace of God which has come to us. They have no regard for charity, none for the widow, the orphan, the oppressed, none for the man in prison, the hungry or the thirsty. They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not admit that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, the flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in His graciousness, raised from the dead."

"Letter to the Smyrnaeans", paragraph 6. circa 80-110 A.D.

"Come together in common, one and all without exception in charity, in one faith and in one Jesus Christ, who is of the race of David according to the flesh, the son of man, and the Son of God, so that with undivided mind you may obey the bishop and the priests, and break one Bread which is the medicine of immortality and the antidote against death, enabling us to live forever in Jesus Christ."

-"Letter to the Ephesians", paragraph 20, c. 80-110 A.D.

"Take care, then who belong to God and to Jesus Christ - they are with the bishop. And those who repent and come to the unity of the Church - they too shall be of God, and will be living according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons."

-Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

St. Martyr

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons

[Christ] has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own Blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own Body, from which he gives increase to our bodies."

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"So then, if the mixed cup and the manufactured bread receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, that is to say, the Blood and Body of Christ, which fortify and build up the substance of our flesh, how can these people claim that the flesh is incapable of receiving God's gift of eternal life, when it is nourished by Christ's Blood and Body and is His member? As the blessed apostle says in his letter to the Ephesians, 'For we are members of His Body, of His flesh and of His bones' (Eph. 5:30). He is not talking about some kind of 'spiritual' and 'invisible' man, 'for a spirit does not have flesh an bones' (Lk. 24:39). No, he is talking of the organism possessed by a real human being, composed of flesh and nerves and bones. It is this which is nourished by the cup which is His Blood, and is fortified by the bread which is His Body. The stem of the vine takes root in the earth and eventually bears fruit, and 'the grain of wheat falls into the earth' (Jn. 12:24), dissolves, rises again, multiplied by the all-containing Spirit of God, and finally after skilled processing, is put to human use. These two then receive the Word of God and become the Eucharist, which is the Body and Blood of Christ.

Source: St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies, 180 A.D.:

"The Blood of the Lord, indeed, is twofold. There is His corporeal Blood, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and His spiritual Blood, that with which we are anointed. That is to say, to drink the Blood of Jesus is to share in His immortality. The strength of the Word is the Spirit just as the blood is the strength of the body. Similarly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. The one, the Watered Wine, nourishes in faith, while the other, the Spirit, leads us on to immortality. The union of both, however, - of the drink and of the Word, - is called the Eucharist, a praiseworthy and excellent gift. Those who partake of it in faith are sanctified in body and in soul. By the will of the Father, the divine mixture, man, is mystically united to the Spirit and to the Word.",

-"The Instructor of the Children". [2,2,19,4] ante 202 A.D.,

"The Word is everything to a child: both Father and Mother, both Instructor and Nurse. 'Eat My Flesh,' He says, 'and drink My Blood.' The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients. He delivers over His Flesh, and pours out His Blood; and nothing is lacking for the growth of His children. O incredible mystery!",

-"The Instructor of the Children" [1,6,41,3] ante 202 A.D.. ,

St. Cyprian of Carthage

"So too the the sacred meaning of the Pasch lies essentially in the fact, laid down in Exodus, that the lamb - slain as a type of Christ - should be eaten in one single home. God says the words: 'In one house shall it be eaten, ye shall not cast its flesh outside.' The flesh of Christ and the Lord's sacred body cannot be cast outside, nor have believers any other home but the one Church.",

-"The Unity of the Catholic Church". Ch.8, circa 249-258 A.D.,


A lot more early church father writings about he Holy Eucharist:

Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist

I stand corrected. the falsehood of the Lords Supper being the actual body and blood of Jesus, started about 70 years earlier than I studied and found.

See I know if we drink it unworthily we sin against teh Lord, but having been taught the Seder and seeing the symbolism of all the parts of the Passover Seder, I know what the particular piece of Pita Jesus picked up means, and I know what the particular cup (of four cups at Seder) the Lord used means!

Then also the original language also tells us that it is not to be done as if it was His body and blood, but to remember Him when we do it! And there is an important reason for that as well.
 

Truth1945

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I stand corrected. the falsehood of the Lords Supper being the actual body and blood of Jesus, started about 70 years earlier than I studied and found.

See I know if we drink it unworthily we sin against teh Lord, but having been taught the Seder and seeing the symbolism of all the parts of the Passover Seder, I know what the particular piece of Pita Jesus picked up means, and I know what the particular cup (of four cups at Seder) the Lord used means!

Then also the original language also tells us that it is not to be done as if it was His body and blood, but to remember Him when we do it! And there is an important reason for that as well.

During the Jewish Passover meal the third cup is called “The Cup of Blessing.” St Paul in 1 Cor 10:16 calls the Eucharistic cup," The Cup of Blessing.". Thus, the cup that Jesus blessed at the Last Supper would be the third cup. The first two cups were not mentioned presumably because the emphasis was on the third cup, when normally they would eat the lamb. But, instead of that, Jesus offers himself as the new Lamb who’s flesh must be eaten.

The emphasis was on establishing a New Covenant through the Body and Blood of Jesus, offered as the Eucharist and sacrificed on the cross. Any Jew in the first century could recognize the form of the Passover meal in the description of the Last Supper. Thus, not every detail would need to be spelled out. Instead the important factors were emphasized.

In the Jewish culture to remember means something different that it is often understood today. For Jesus to remember, is not a mental exercise, a thinking about something that happened in the past. Rather to remember is to make the past present with us now so that we can participate in it. In other words, to remember someone is to make them alive and present with us now, and to remember an event is to participate in that event as it becomes real in the present.

“Remember” is an unfortunately limited translation of the concept, and even the Greek “anamnesis” is an approximation, though it’s much closer. Rest assured, when we celebrate the Mass, we are literally in the Upper Room two thousand years ago. In a certain sense the “real presence” works both ways during Mass.
 

Marymog

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The Holy Spirit never lies. You would know this if you read your Bible.
According to your theory, that ALL believers REQUIRE the Holy Spirit to guide us into ALL truth, the Holy Spirit does lie because ALL 2 billion of us believers have different truths.

It is because I have read ALL of Scripture, instead of cherry picking passages, that I KNOW that not EVERYONE can have the truth. Your theory is not sustainable and whomever taught you this theory you keep pushing to your own destruction you should run from....fast.
 

Marymog

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Should I blame all of Catholicism because many priests have molested children??? Should I misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches based on the wrongs of some Catholic leaders?
You make a good point. The many should not be blamed on the sins of the few.

My point is that Protestantism, a belief system which you support and are part of, allows a each individual person to interpret Scripture as long as they feel/think/believe they are being guided by the Holy Spirit. Putting that theory into practice means that at no point and time can a Protestant leader ever misrepresent what Scripture teaches. A Catholic leader CAN misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches about Scripture. Protestants can never legitimately object to another Protestants teaching. A Catholic can object to another Catholics teaching

Sooooo how can Protestantism hold accountable any Protestant that says abortion is supported by Scripture? After all, according to your own Protestant theory, one can believe whatever they want as long as they think/believe/feel like they are being guided by the Holy Spirit and they use Scripture to support their beliefs. Using the Protestant theory of sola Scriptura there is not a single word in Scripture forbidding abortion sooo how can you tell them they are wrong for supporting abortion?

Sooooo we can blame the Protestant theory (teaching of man) that any man can read Scripture and come to the Truth for the belief that abortion is not a sin.

Keeping it real....Mary
 

Marymog

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I don't know that Luther had every truth in the bag; so if the Holy Spirit led people away from things that Luther said, that were not according to the truth, that would be guiding them into all truth.
That makes absolutely ZERO sense!!!
 

Marymog

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We can know at the very least that it was not the Holy Spirit who led these men into such reprobate thinking.
How can you say that abortion is a "reprobate thinking"?? Scripture does not talk about it!!!

And who is "WE"??? Do you 1 billion Protestants get together once a year and decide what is or isn't reprobate thinking?? Or when you say "We" you actually mean you and the people you talk to?

Here is the biggest question I would like you to answer: How do you Protestants decide what is truly "reprobate thinking" and what is not? Some of you believe baptism saves, some don't. Some believe in the Real Presence, some don't etc. etc. Is it majority rules? If so.....when is that vote taken?
 

Marymog

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Perhaps you should look at your own church before throwing stones....

Pope Francis signals openness towards gay priests

Pope Signals Openness to Gay Priests, and More

Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?

Oh, and FYI, I don't consider myself to be a Protestant, but I don't like to see their beliefs misrepresented.
Protestantism teaches that you can interpret Scripture anyway you want and some have interpreted it to say that abortion is ok. Sooooo I am Not throwing stones PW....Just stating facts.

Pope Francis is not The Church. The Pope is fallible but The Church is not. Sooooo you can quote the person the Pope all day long. It isn't Church doctrine.

Besides that you should get more up to date info instead of 7 year old news stories. Francis (and The Church) has made it very clear that the ACT of homosexuality is a sin. And you should be agreeing with the Pope and The Church since that is what Scripture teaches.
 

Marymog

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The Holy Spirit did not tell you that...but you and I both know that you are saying that to make a point...now isn't that true?
Hi JBF,

Nope, not trying to make a point and thank you for artfully wording your sentence to where you are calling me a liar without flat out calling me a liar.

Please tell me why the Holy Spirit is guiding YOU and not the men of The Church? How is the Holy Spirit guiding you and not the non-Catholic men who are not part of The Church but agree with The Church and disagree with you?

How is it that YOU are always right and they (anyone that disagrees with you) are always wrong?
 

Truth1945

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How can you say that abortion is a "reprobate thinking"?? Scripture does not talk about it!!!

And who is "WE"??? Do you 1 billion Protestants get together once a year and decide what is or isn't reprobate thinking?? Or when you say "We" you actually mean you and the people you talk to?

Here is the biggest question I would like you to answer: How do you Protestants decide what is truly "reprobate thinking" and what is not? Some of you believe baptism saves, some don't. Some believe in the Real Presence, some don't etc. etc. Is it majority rules? If so.....when is that vote taken?
Personal beliefs are not Church doctrine. There are many fake Catholics too.

The Church interpretation of scripture is the same for all Catholic Churches when it comes to doctrinal beliefs and all Masses are the same. If a Catholic priest started teaching that the eucharist was symbolic, he would be excommunicated since it's a doctrinal belief that he would be teaching against.
 
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DPMartin

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Would the US government allow anyone to interpret the US constitution without the court system guiding them? If anybody can determine law by their own interpretation, we would have complete chaos! This is what we have in non-catholic christian religions, interpretation chaos. This is why there are 50 thousand different protestant / non-denominational churhes that believe different things.

Some Thoughts:
  • Jesus established a Church and gave the Church the keys to the kingdom of heaven, along with binding and losing authority - Matt 16
  • Only the Catholic Church can claim that it was established by Jesus
  • The early Church Fathers are Catholic
  • Who owned back then and still owns the ancient write scripture scrolls? The Church did and still does; located at the Vatican in their massive library
  • The Bible was not created until around the 4th century
  • If there was no bible, who did the teaching? The Church that Jesus established did the teaching with the scripture scrolls
  • Very few people could read back then
  • There was no printing press; it took a year for a scholar writer to write out the Bible
  • The Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church using her binding and losing authority, which you believe in indirectly
  • Thousand of writings were voted on; the Church used her binding and losing during several Catholic Councils including the Council of Rome to compile the Bible
  • You follow an ex catholic priest via the protestant reform of the 1500s - a human being
  • etc...

well if those who are trusted to do so, become corrupt then rebellion is in the mist. that is the trouble with power in the hands of men to do what ever one wants without repercussions. you can't remove the pope so then its wiser to remove the group of believers. the RCC is a church of the state. only the state can remove a pontiff. then when emperors commissioned popes, it could be done, now its the church of the Vatican state. whos going to remove a corrupt pontiff now?

and any claim in the RCC of authority of interpretation is self proclaimed, because Jesus is the interpretation that is accepted by the Father, ( you know, the resurrection is the proof thereof) and the children of the Father should accept only the Son of God as the interpretation because He is the fulfillment. but churches want men to accept their interpretations and in many cases will try and say anything to accomplish that. they don't care if the Lord God accepts it because that's not who they want power and influence over.
 

Marymog

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You are being very very selective here. Yes, there are some churches who have compromised in all manner of things. I would not call them Protestant. Protestant is a specific sector of non Catholic Christian faith, and it holds to certain specific tenets... It's a narrow road.
Hi backlit,

Protestantism defined:
adherence to the forms of Christian doctrine which are generally regarded as Protestant rather than Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.



That is true. There are only a few Protestant churches that have "compromised in all manner of things".

Who decides when a manner of things have been compromised in the Protestant church system since the Protestant system allows for anyone to believe whatever they want as long as they believe the Holy Spirit guided them to it??

Curious Mary
 

Ronald Nolette

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During the Jewish Passover meal the third cup is called “The Cup of Blessing.” St Paul in 1 Cor 10:16 calls the Eucharistic cup," The Cup of Blessing.". Thus, the cup that Jesus blessed at the Last Supper would be the third cup. The first two cups were not mentioned presumably because the emphasis was on the third cup, when normally they would eat the lamb. But, instead of that, Jesus offers himself as the new Lamb who’s flesh must be eaten.

Actually teh 3rd cup is the cup of redemption and that is the one Jesus passed to the disciples signifying what that cup meant in its typology. The fourth cup is the cup of blessing or praise.

The emphasis was on establishing a New Covenant through the Body and Blood of Jesus, offered as the Eucharist and sacrificed on the cross. Any Jew in the first century could recognize the form of the Passover meal in the description of the Last Supper. Thus, not every detail would need to be spelled out. Instead the important factors were emphasized.

Absolutely! they would have seen the fulfilment of the types and remember the Lord and not the passover. They would not have said they are the actual body and blood of Jesus. As the church became more Gentile and less Jewish and as the gap grew wider this fact was nearly completely lost, except by the remnant saved in every generation.

In the Jewish culture to remember means something different that it is often understood today. For Jesus to remember, is not a mental exercise, a thinking about something that happened in the past. Rather to remember is to make the past present with us now so that we can participate in it. In other words, to remember someone is to make them alive and present with us now, and to remember an event is to participate in that event as it becomes real in the present.

“Remember” is an unfortunately limited translation of the concept, and even the Greek “anamnesis” is an approximation, though it’s much closer. Rest assured, when we celebrate the Mass, we are literally in the Upper Room two thousand years ago. In a certain sense the “real presence” works both ways during Mass.

Well to "remember" (zakar) in Jewish mindset is a very strong word! It is more than giving a mental assent or simply calling to mind a set of facts. And it is much stronger than the greek amanmnesis but it is not a making the past literally present.

Jews "remember" the passover but do not think they are present in it again. Nor did teh early church think they were having a "perpetual sacrifice". There were no masses, no eucharist, no mystical time of transubstantiation. Just a koinania supper with teh 3rd cup and the middle pita being shared to recall what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection.
 

Ronald Nolette

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My point is that Protestantism, a belief system which you support and are part of, allows a each individual person to interpret Scripture as long as they feel/think/believe they are being guided by the Holy Spirit. Putting that theory into practice means that at no point and time can a Protestant leader ever misrepresent what Scripture teaches. A Catholic leader CAN misrepresent what the Catholic Church teaches about Scripture. Protestants can never legitimately object to another Protestants teaching. A Catholic can object to another Catholics teaching

This is a misnaming of what non-Catholics actually teach and believe.

There is only one interpretation of SCripture- what is written in light of all other passages relating to what is written in that topic.

There are many applications to the one interpretation at times and that is what the individual is allowed to discover between them and god.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Facts please

Given teh nature of teh Passover meal and that the early church for over 7 years was over 99.9% Jewish that is one fact.

Paul never taught the doctrine of Roman transubstantiation. There was no priesthood holding ritualistic "masses" till much later. For the longest time only Baptism and the Lords Supper were the only ordinances observed. People met in homes, caves, tunnels, fields and the message of the gospel and the teachings of teh Apostles took primacy, not the Eucharist.

Just notice the paucity of teaching on Communion and the depth of teaching of focus on the teachings of the Apostles. It was only mentioned in Corinthians because they were celebrating too much at the fellowship supper where they had communion.

Catholicism has made it the central point of its services and yet the Apostles only mentioned it once to the Gentile church and that was to correct wrongs going on in the whole celebration.