Would the US government allow anyone to interpret the US constitution?

[justbyfaith]

Facts please, not theories. Facts! I'm very interested to learn if it's facts.

I would love to join your "bible only" believers if you would show me facts. My life would be much easier! I wouldn't have to carrier this darn cross anymore! I'd be done and saved! Please show me the facts!

Thanks!

How is what I related to you not a fact?

 

[Marymog]

Your questions were not specifically directly to me, but if I may...
Considering what Paul wrote in the following verse, how are we to approach and respond to your questions?
"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

Hi Amadeus,

I always enjoy input from you. However, what we should do is take into context all of what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 10 instead of the one vs you quoted.

Start back at vs4 and you will see that Paul says "...We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ. We are ready to punish every disobedience when your obedience is complete.

So Amadeus, how are we to approach and respond to the questions in my scenario based on that passage? Paul said he destroys arguments and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God. Whose argument will he destroy: Protestant A, B or C's??? Who would Paul punish for being disobedient? Protestant A, B or C??

Lets look at vs8: Now, even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

So I ask you Amadeus, how are we to approach and respond to the questions in my scenario based on that passage? Paul said he has authority from the Lord for building up and he is not ashamed to use that authority. Which group will Paul build up: A or B or C???

Bible study Mary

PS....In that passage you quoted Paul said "we" and "they". Who is we? Who are they?

 

[Marymog]

You forgot several other options. Sprinkling once meaning salvation... Sprinkling three times... No baptism at all. None of which is in scripture. So what do you make of that?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Brakelite]

Thank you for your time.

Welcome. Call again any time. Always happy to help out.

 

[Marymog]

We don't! Simply because the bible in light of all other passages unambiguously declares water Baptism doesn't save! So B is right biblically.

Simply accepting what a church teaches without investigating is foolishness!

Most of the arguments that we see are because people accept a churches teachings without looking at the word for themselves!
Many people hold bad doctrine because they are new believers and just starting their walk with God.
Many people hold bad doctrine because they are lazy and do not study to show themselves approved unto God!
Many people hold bad doctrine because they were taught to view SCripture in a false way.
Many people hold bad doctrine because they simply accept the bad doctrine from a church who has held it for however long!

Do I believe I hoild right views in all things I believe in ? Yes I do? am I 100% right? Most likely not- I am human! But to not believe in the things you believe in requires one of those coats with the long sleeves!

Have I and can I change my mind abou tmy beliefs? Absolutely! But after being a student of Gods Word for 46 years, I do have at least some grasp of SCripture. If I am to change, I need a better argumetn from Gods Word and not form a man made denomination or allegorical view of teh clear words of SCripture!

I do not even accept teh "reasonable argument". The only question a believer should pose when faced with spiritual teachings is not, is it logical, is it reasonable, does it sound holy, but the only question to be answered is: IS IT BIBLICAL! If it was good enough for Jesus, it sure is good enough for us!

Hi Ronald,


Soooooo to summarize your response:

You believe that in light of all other passages that Protestant B is right because Scripture unambiguously declares water Baptism doesn't save! You know B is right because your not a fool and you didn't accept what a church teaches about it. You investigated it yourself to come to the proper interpretation of Scripture.

You are right because you do not accept a churches teachings or bad doctrine without looking at the word for yourself, you are not a new believer and just starting your walk with God, you are not lazy and you study to show yourself approved unto God and you were not taught to view Scripture in a false way!!!

You believe you hold the right views but, most likely, you are not 100% right!! You have changed your mind in the past but after 46 years the odds are your not going to change your mind on this baptism thing because you only accept reasonable arguments.


So if anyone disagrees with you it is because they didn't investigate to come up with a proper interpretation of Scripture? They are either lazy or just starting their walk with God (new believer) soooo they really don't know how to properly interpret Scripture? They accept someone else's teaching/bad doctrine? They don't have a reasonable argument for their position; yours is reasonable?

Curious Mary


PS...Who taught you not to view Scripture in a false way?

 

[Marymog]

Welcome. Call again any time. Always happy to help out.

Mmmmm.....you didn't help out......You are not a sincere person. I only engage in conversation with sincere people.

 

[amadeus]

Hi Ronald,

To help me better understand what you are saying I will give you a scenario:

Using Scripture in light of all other passages relating to baptism Protestant “A” believes one must be water baptized and that baptism saves (1 Peter 3:21 etc. etc).

Using Scripture in light of all other passages relating to baptism Protestant “B” believes when one gets baptized it is a public showing that you are Christian and it doesn’t save you.

Using Scripture in light of all other passages relating to baptism Protestant “C” believes baptism is not necessary at all.

That covers your many applications to one interpretation scenario. All three of them have been “allowed to discover between them and God’ what THEY personally believe.

My questions to you are: If A is right, baptism saves and is necessary then B and C Possibly won’t be saved. How do we rectify that?

How are we fulfilling Jesus prayer that we are all one if we all are able to discover between us and God what the truth is?

Your questions were not specifically directly to me, but if I may...

Considering what Paul wrote in the following verse, how are we to approach and respond to your questions?

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

Hi Amadeus,

I always enjoy input from you. However, what we should do is take into context all of what Paul said in 2 Corinthians 10 instead of the one vs you quoted.

Start back at vs4 and you will see that Paul says "...We destroy arguments and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ. We are ready to punish every disobedience when your obedience is complete.

So Amadeus, how are we to approach and respond to the questions in my scenario based on that passage? Paul said he destroys arguments and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God. Whose argument will he destroy: Protestant A, B or C's??? Who would Paul punish for being disobedient? Protestant A, B or C??

Lets look at vs8: Now, even if I boast a little too much of our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for tearing you down, I will not be ashamed of it.

So I ask you Amadeus, how are we to approach and respond to the questions in my scenario based on that passage? Paul said he has authority from the Lord for building up and he is not ashamed to use that authority. Which group will Paul build up: A or B or C???

Bible study Mary

PS....In that passage you quoted Paul said "we" and "they". Who is we? Who are they?

"(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.
For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:
That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters.
For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such will we be also in deed when we are present." II Cor 10:4-11

My point was with regard to comparing what one man does with what another man does. Unless we are able to see or discern all that is in another man's mind or heart, how can we do it? When are able to communicate then we may discuss, but many times as you and I have demonstrated in the past there is a lack of communication, which means that both may be right or both wrong.

In verse 4 Paul speaks of "our weapons" not being carnal, Then he speaks of "ye [you plural] look on things" and he speaks of "If any man trust...". To me this includes me or you and anyone else in this discussion. Similarly with the "they measuring themselves".

You set three hypothetical scenarios and want someone to then logically determine from them and scripture what Paul might conclude. Such a thing to me is problematic because it is hypothetical rather than real. We cannot know the mind and/or heart of Paul in an hypothetical situation. To know it in real situations in his life mentioned in scripture would be possible if God were to show it to us.

My conclusion based on verse 12 is that we should be careful about even making such a comparison to prove one person is right and another is wrong in what they believe. Will God's answer always be the same? His answer will always be right, and since He always has all of the facts it will fit the facts. However, most of the time [all of the time?] we do not have all of the facts. This is what I derive from verse 12. Perhaps in our minds looking at scenarios like you presented we may think it is clear, but then again what facts are missing? In a hypothetical case, perhaps none, but what happens when it is a real situation rather than a hypothetical one? This is the reason for my question about your questions. Dealing with hypothetical may at times be helpful but it cannot assure us of having God's answer in a real situation.

Why are we even asking such questions? I have not read all of the previous posts, but I have been baptized in water at least three times that I can remember in three different ways. [Sprinkled with Trinity formula spoken, dunked with Trinity formula spoken, and dunked with Oneness formula spoken.] Why would I need such a definite answer? Should I be baptized again?

If a person doubts the need to be baptized or the way to be baptized or the result obtained by being baptized, he should study on it, pray on it and/or ask someone he trusts questions about it. The decision is still his, whether it turns out to be completely right, partly right or completely wrong. Our conclusions based on our hypothetical comparisons, right or wrong, will make no difference to person needing a decision. What God knows to be correct, of course, would.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Aliens if they arrived would very likely have no knowledge of the name of Jesus and it would be our duty to preach it to them.

That is silly!

Jesus is the Creator of the entire universe! If He revealed Himself to us, IF, IF, IFA there is life out there other than the cherubs, Seraphs, and angels, I do not think that god would withhold the knowledge of Himself from them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

At every fellowship in the first century? And printing presses too, iPads, etc...

According to history, Acts of the Apostles was written in 60AD. And the Gospels were written from 60AD to 110AD. Jesus died rose somewhere around 30AD.

Can you share with me your evidence? Not opinions from somebody, just facts... Maybe the evidence used from your bible college, etc.

Well you are listening to teh liberal scholars who push the NT firther badck in history than is possible.

Paul was executed by rome in teh mid -50's A.D. so his epistles were all written by then. Luke was his companion so HIs gospel and Acts were also written by then.

The last books of the bible to be written were the writings of John. He wrote them on Patmos and he was sent there in the 80's by Domitian.

I suggest you get the Books by Josh McDowell that shows the history of the N.T.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So if anyone disagrees with you it is because they didn't investigate to come up with a proper interpretation of Scripture? They are either lazy or just starting their walk with God (new believer) soooo they really don't know how to properly interpret Scripture? They accept someone else's teaching/bad doctrine? They don't have a reasonable argument for their position; yours is reasonable?

There are numerous reasons why someone may disagree with the SCriptures that prove that right. I would not confine them to just your rather acerbic reasons. Those are some. but there are other reasons as well. I couldn't answer a hypotheticasl for we don't know the person or their reasoning.

It is not to hate them, put them downs, berate them, or imply they are not saved! but if the Bible teaches something, we should do all we can to insure we know the whole counsel of SCripture that is pertinent to that subject.

I have been around too long and have walked with the Lord for 46 years and have read the Bible too many times to just blindly accept the teachings of any church, including my own! I and my senior pastor have and do disagree on issues. The church has always been united in spirit, but there has also been many disagreements. As there should be as Paul warned!

Some are minor and do not amount to any kind of earth shattering problems, but some are huge and do require schisms and seperating ourself from a church that holds to false doctrine on what are called the fundamentals of the faith!

 

[Marymog]

If a person doubts the need to be baptized or the way to be baptized or the result obtained by being baptized, he should study on it, pray on it and/or ask someone he trusts questions about it. The decision is still his, whether it turns out to be completely right, partly right or completely wrong. Our conclusions based on our hypothetical comparisons, right or wrong, will make no difference to person needing a decision. What God knows to be correct, of course, would.

Hi Amadeus,

What you are espousing is relativism!! That is a dangerous teaching from Protestantism.

Scripture makes it clear their is sound doctrine and false doctrine. False prophets and men who are from God and whoever knows God listens to them. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Jesus told his Apostles "Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” The Apostles said/wrote MANY things concerning baptism and we are to "LISTEN" to them or "REJECT" them.

With that said I and all of Christianity believe the Apostles had a very clear teaching on baptism. We have just been disagreeing for the last 500 years on what the "clear" teaching is. Two of those three (A, B or C ) is rejecting their teaching and one of the three is listening to their teaching.

We have a choice to listen to the Apostles very clear teaching on baptism or reject them. Sooooooo it clearly does make a difference for a person to make a decision since if you reject the Apostles teaching on the matter you reject Jesus.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

There are numerous reasons why someone may disagree with the SCriptures that prove that right. I would not confine them to just your rather acerbic reasons. Those are some. but there are other reasons as well. I couldn't answer a hypotheticasl for we don't know the person or their reasoning.

It is not to hate them, put them downs, berate them, or imply they are not saved! but if the Bible teaches something, we should do all we can to insure we know the whole counsel of SCripture that is pertinent to that subject.

I have been around too long and have walked with the Lord for 46 years and have read the Bible too many times to just blindly accept the teachings of any church, including my own! I and my senior pastor have and do disagree on issues. The church has always been united in spirit, but there has also been many disagreements. As there should be as Paul warned!

Some are minor and do not amount to any kind of earth shattering problems, but some are huge and do require schisms and seperating ourself from a church that holds to false doctrine on what are called the fundamentals of the faith!

Thanks Ronald.

In your testimony earlier you suggested we should not accept a churches teachings without looking at the word for ourselves! People hold bad doctrine because they are new believers, lazy and taught bad doctrine from a Church.

Sooooo how about if we find a person who has been a Christian for....ummmm....80 years, who every one they know can attest is not lazy in his/her studies of Scripture and never attended a denominational Church to have learned bad doctrine from? How do we find that person?

Have you ever left a church because they started teaching a "false doctrine"?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

[QUOTE="amadeus, post: 849485, member: 924]

My point was with regard to comparing what one man does with what another man does. Unless we are able to see or discern all that is in another man's mind or heart, how can we do it? When are able to communicate then we may discuss, but many times as you and I have demonstrated in the past there is a lack of communication, which means that both may be right or both wrong. [/QUOTE]
So what you are saying is that as long as a person has a good heart and good intent they will still be saved? Even if what they practice/believe/teach is OPPOSITE of what Jesus and the Apostles taught/practiced/believed?

 

[Truthcampaign.org]

Well you are listening to teh liberal scholars who push the NT firther badck in history than is possible.

Paul was executed by rome in teh mid -50's A.D. so his epistles were all written by then. Luke was his companion so HIs gospel and Acts were also written by then.

The last books of the bible to be written were the writings of John. He wrote them on Patmos and he was sent there in the 80's by Domitian.

I suggest you get the Books by Josh McDowell that shows the history of the N.T.

Oh... some conspiracy theories. Got it. With NO evidence. I don't want opinions!

Think about it, you're basing your complete faith on theories.

Show me the evidence of this history. Like I've said before, if the Catholic Church is not the Church based on historical evidence, then I'm done with it! It would be sad because of the true presence of the Lord that I feel in the Holy Eucharist. But I'm here to follow the Lord and what he taught. If I'm wrong, show me! Prove to me with historical evidence.

I not going to read some guys opinion and theories. I want true history. Bring it to the table!

To convert me to bible only or protestant or whatever, tell me what true history says. Bring the facts. Not opinions and theories.

God Bless

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Facts please, not theories. Facts! I'm very interested to learn if it's facts.

I would love to join your "bible only" believers if you would show me facts. My life would be much easier! I wouldn't have to carrier this darn cross anymore! I'd be done and saved! Please show me the facts!

Thanks!

What cross are you talking about, TC? Sounds like you’re struggling. I’m praying for you.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is silly!

Jesus is the Creator of the entire universe! If He revealed Himself to us, IF, IF, IFA there is life out there other than the cherubs, Seraphs, and angels, I do not think that god would withhold the knowledge of Himself from them.

I consider that it may be that the Lord wants us to spread the gospel throughout the Universe.

Just as Jesus did not go personally to the American Indians but set the church to be the bearer of the good news to them once we discovered the New World, so, I believe, the Lord wants us to be the bearer of the good news to aliens if they do in fact exist.

The revelation of Jesus dying on the Cross for sin may not yet be given to them; just as this revelation was not given to the American Indians before it was brought to them through missionaries in the United States.

 

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus,

What you are espousing is relativism!! That is a dangerous teaching from Protestantism.

Scripture makes it clear their is sound doctrine and false doctrine. False prophets and men who are from God and whoever knows God listens to them. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Jesus told his Apostles "Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” The Apostles said/wrote MANY things concerning baptism and we are to "LISTEN" to them or "REJECT" them.

With that said I and all of Christianity believe the Apostles had a very clear teaching on baptism. We have just been disagreeing for the last 500 years on what the "clear" teaching is. Two of those three (A, B or C ) is rejecting their teaching and one of the three is listening to their teaching.

We have a choice to listen to the Apostles very clear teaching on baptism or reject them. Sooooooo it clearly does make a difference for a person to make a decision since if you reject the Apostles teaching on the matter you reject Jesus.

Mary

God and God's Way is not relative but absolute. Men, on the other hand, are in and of different positions even those who are walking with or striving to walk with God. Some are new born babes, still on milk. Others may be in the process of being weaned from milk to move onto the on the meat. Finally some may be already deep into the meat.

"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" I Peter 2:2

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?" I Cor 3:1-3

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." Heb 5:12-14

Among all of them in those places, the walk is different according to the part of the Body of Christ which they are called to be:

"And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all" I Cor 12:6

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ" I Cor 12:12

"For the body is not one member, but many.
If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
And if they were all one member, where were the body?
But now are they many members, yet but one body." I Cor 12:14-20

 

[amadeus]

So what you are saying is that as long as a person has a good heart and good intent they will still be saved? Even if what they practice/believe/teach is OPPOSITE of what Jesus and the Apostles taught/practiced/believed?

I don't believe that is what I was saying. Again as before we don't always communicate:

How much does a new born in Christ know about the things of God? How does God render judgement? Do you suppose He gives us all a theology test and gives us a final grade? What does Jesus tell us here..?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

 

[Marymog]

I don't believe that is what I was saying. Again as before we don't always communicate:

How much does a new born in Christ know about the things of God? How does God render judgement? Do you suppose He gives us all a theology test and gives us a final grade? What does Jesus tell us here..?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

I agree, we don't always communicate well. It is difficult for me to decrypt your writings because you don't really answer anything. You cherry pick Scripture and quote it out of context to fit what you believe which is the practice of relativsm. When I put what you cherry picked into context, it doesn't really mean what you say it means.

Your Luke 12:48 passage is a small part of a parable that Jesus was telling and it is NOT in context and has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

Uggg.....

 

[amadeus]

I agree, we don't always communicate well. It is difficult for me to decrypt your writings because you don't really answer anything. You cherry pick Scripture and quote it out of context to fit what you believe which is the practice of relativsm. When I put what you cherry picked into context, it doesn't really mean what you say it means.

Your Luke 12:48 passage is a small part of a parable that Jesus was telling and it is NOT in context and has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

Uggg.....

I am really sorry that you believe as you do about me. I could give you more verses of scripture from both the OT and the NT to clarify my understanding, but since have decided in accord to what the CC teaches, it would be like wheels spinning without traction. Only God gives any increase!

Give God the glory!