WOULD YOU LIKE TO JOIN A NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH?

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Paul Christensen

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I decided that I do want to be part of a New Testament church, so I started to build a time machine to take me back to the First Century so I could be there to be a First Century Christian. Trouble is though, I would be taking my life into my hands because Christians are being persecuted and killed back then. However, I need an essential component to make the machine work - A particle displacement activator modulation discriminator. I became flummoxed because one hasn't been invented yet, and to get one I would have to go forward in time to obtain one. But that is out of the question because I actually need one to make my machine work. So, I guess I have to give that project up, and be content with the church I am currently attending...
 
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marksman

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The first 40 popes were killed by pagan Romans, which takes us to the late 2nd century. I'll bet my pension cheque none of your "various books and volumes on church history" mention this hard historical fact.

As French historian Augustin Thierry has written, “To live, Protestantism found itself forced to build up a history of its own.”

If that is a fact which it obviously is not, it would mean on average a new pope every 1.6 months.
 

marksman

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51LAbRH5nsL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

In this stunning, powerful, and ultimately persuasive book, Rodney Stark, one of the most highly regarded sociologists of religion and bestselling author of The Rise of Christianity (HarperSanFrancisco 1997) argues that some of our most firmly held ideas about history, ideas that paint the Catholic Church in the least positive light are, in fact, fiction. Why have we held these wrongheaded ideas so strongly and for so long? And if our beliefs are wrong, what, in fact, is the truth?
In each chapter, Stark takes on a well-established anti-Catholic myth, gives a fascinating history of how each myth became the conventional wisdom, and presents a startling picture of the real truth. see full review here

Note: Rodney Stark, one of the most highly regarded sociologists of religion, IS NOT A CATHOLIC, thus has no doctrinal bias.
When I study any subject, I do not rely on one book. As in when I was studying the NTC I read at least 60 books. My knowledge of the catholic church includes books written by Catholics, books written by non-Catholics, working in the catholic education system, and talking to Catholics that I worked with in other situations.

When I see the same comment or idea appear, again and again, I have two choices. One, ignore it because it must be a lie because it does not paint the catholic church as they want to be seen, Or, it must be the truth if everyone is saying the same thing. I will let you decide which one is the right one.
 

Brakelite

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This is a prime example of a post that, although I disagree on some points - I don't feel is blatantly "anti-Catholic".
It is simply a disagreement about what each of us sees as the Apostolic Church.
I actually edited my first draft of that post but it doesn't seem to have come through. I mentioned that those churches which grew from the bones of that house to house raw product were mission oriented churches that spread throughout the known world... But, and this is a significant but, those missionaries did not emanate from Rome. By the time the church in Rome had organised itself into anything capable of fulfilling any role capable of missions, having been under the constant threat of first pagan Rome, then the hordes of barbarians such as the Goths, Vandals, and Heruli etc, it was well into the 6th century. Until then the Roman bishops were only able to do what they were told by the pagan rulers. In fact, there's evidence that the pagan rulers had the final say on who was to be Bishop.
So by the time missionaries such as Augustine and others began traversing across the landscape, they discovered all already thriving Christian Church which had by the gospel if love overcome entire pagan communities. None more so was this revealed than in Britain . The gospel that came from Rome was not one that offered redemption through Christ alone, but one that offered peace with Christ only under the condition of submission to Rome. This the British church refused, and had to fight for hundreds of years for their Independence. And still do so today.
 

Bobby Jo

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The Church that began in Jerusalem was eventually headquartered in Rome. It is from here that further missionaries were commissioned to those same places to make sure that the Gospel was being taught correctly.

I adamantly defend the Catholic Church from LIARS, but I also call out the Catholic Church from LIES. I.e., "Rome" is DEAD. Another, ITALY, occupies that ancient geography.

So to purport that anything mystical comes from "ROME" is a LIE, -- and all churches have their flaws, including the Catholic Church.


Bobby Jo
 

Illuminator

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So to purport that anything mystical comes from "ROME" is a LIE, -- and all churches have their flaws, including the Catholic Church.
Bobby Jo
Anything? What a broad brush you have. Having flaws, which we don't deny, has nothing to do with maintaining doctrinal fidelity through the ages. The anti-Catholic refuses to make the distinction.

The Bible repeatedly teaches that the Church is indefectible; therefore, the hypothetical of rejecting the (one true, historic) Church, as supposedly going against the Bible, is impossible according to the Bible. It is not a situation that would ever come up, because of God’s promised protection.

What the Bible says is to reject those who cause divisions, which is the very essence of the onset of Protestantism: schism, sectarianism, and division. It is Protestantism that departed from the historic Church, which is indefectible and infallible (see also 1 Tim 3:15).
C. S. Lewis, the famous Anglican writer, once wrote:

The very possibility of progress demands that there should be an unchanging element . . . the positive historical statements made by Christianity have the power . . . of receiving, without intrinsic change, the increasing complexity of meaning which increasing knowledge puts into them.
(God in the Dock, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1970, 44-47)
The Catholic Church, in agreement with Lewis, defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils.

Like many Christian doctrines, the idea of doctrinal development is based on much implicit or indirect scriptural evidence. The best indications are perhaps Mt. 5:17, 13:31-2, Jn. 14:26, 16:13, 1 Cor. 2:9-16, Gal. 4:4, Eph. 1:10, 4:12-15. Furthermore, doctrine clearly develops within Scripture (“progressive revelation”). Examples: doctrines of the afterlife, the Trinity, the Messiah (eventually revealed as God the Son), the Holy Spirit (Divine Person in the New Testament), the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, sacrifice of lambs evolving into the sacrifice of Christ, etc. Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

In general, whenever Scripture refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians and the Church, an idea very similar to doctrinal development is present. Holy Scripture, then, is in no way hostile to development. It is only Protestant presuppositions – not always so “biblical” – which preclude development for fear of “excess.”

The Canon of Scripture itself is an example of developing doctrine. The New Testament never informs us which books comprise itself, and its Canon (final list of books) took about 360 years to reach its final form (at the Council of Carthage in 397). For instance, the books of Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Jude, and Revelation were not widely accepted by the Church until 350 A.D.!

And books such as Barnabas and 1 and 2 Clement were considered Scripture by many at the same time (for example, the manuscripts Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus). Of the 27 New Testament books, 14 were not mentioned at all until around 200 A.D., including Acts, 2 Corinthians, Galatians and Colossians.

On what grounds, then, can we receive the Canon today except on the authority of the Church in the 5th century? These facts cause insuperable problems for Protestantism and its guiding principle of “Scripture Alone,” but are not a difficulty in the least for Catholics, who believe in Tradition, Church Authority, and development – all crucial elements in the very human process of selection of the biblical Canon.

It is plain silly (not to mention insufferably arrogant) to assert, as did Luther and especially Calvin, that the knowledge of what books constitute Scripture is attained simply by an intuitive and subjective inkling within each Spirit-filled person. If the early Church had such a difficult time determining what was and was not Scripture, how could Calvin 15 centuries later claim that it was altogether simple for him and every other sincere Christian?!

The Church is called the “Body” of Christ often (e.g., Eph. 1:22-3), and is compared to a seed which grows into a tree (Mt. 13:31-2). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. Yet Protestants tend to see Church and Doctrine as more like a statue, subject to pigeon droppings (i.e., so-called Catholic “corruptions”!). This robs the metaphors of Christ of their essential meaning. It is impossible to claim that no development occurred in Church history, or that it ceased after the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 5th century, etc. (all arbitrary human traditions). The Bible is not absolutely clear in every part, and requires the developing wisdom of the Church.

continued...
 

Illuminator

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Doctrines agreed upon by all develop, too.
  • The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325,
  • and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.
  • The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451.
These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?

Although understanding increases, the essential elements of doctrines exist from the beginning. Today’s Church shouldn’t be expected to look like the primitive Church if it is a living, vibrant, spiritual organism. But even the early Church looks like a small “Catholic tree.” It doesn’t look like a Protestant “statue,” doomed to be increasingly corrupted by an encroaching, “diabolical” Catholicism, as is imagined by millions of Protestants unacquainted with the early Church and the oldest source materials after the New Testament, such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (d.c. 110) and St. Clement of Rome (d.c.101).

One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.​
John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890), Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine

Protestantism is inconsistent in its selective espousal of Christian beliefs. The so-called “Catholic distinctives” were merely cast off at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century – basically due to prejudice and ignorance. Protestantism ever since has had to either distort, ignore, or be embarrassed by the facts of early Christian history which, again and again, are found to be much more in conjunction with Catholicism. Protestant anti-Catholic apologists are notorious for searching for quotes by Church Fathers which appear to support their presuppositions, while bypassing those (often by the same Father) which clearly suggest the Catholic outlook. I did this myself in the year before I was convinced of the truth of Catholicism.

Newman states, in summary:


If it be true that the principles of the later Church are the same as those of the earlier, then, whatever are the variations of belief between the two periods, the later in reality agrees more than it differs with the earlier, for principles are responsible for doctrines. Hence they who assert that the modern Roman system is the corruption of primitive theology are forced to discover some difference of principle between the one and the other; for instance, that the right of private judgment was secured to the early Church and has been lost to the later, or again, that the later Church rationalizes and the earlier went by faith.​
(Ibid., ch. 7, section 6: conclusion)

This is true whether the theological considerations are those agreed upon by all, such as the Divinity of Christ, the Two Natures of Christ, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, Original Sin, and the Canon of Scripture, or those denied by Protestants, such as the Marian dogmas, Purgatory, the papacy, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Communion of Saints, priestly absolution, baptismal regeneration, the Sacrifice of the Mass, etc.

If anything must be described, then, as a corruption of primitive, pure Christianity, it is Protestantism, not Catholicism, since it introduced a radically new mode of Christian authority which was a 180-degree departure from the established Christian Tradition: that of subjective, private judgment, tied in with the unbiblical, unhistorical, and unreasonable notion of “Scripture Alone.” Protestantism is much more of a corruption, if that word is defined as an essential change of direction or philosophy of an institution or a set of beliefs (in this case theological and spiritual).

One might say that an automobile was “corrupt” if the owner decided that it ran better with no muffler, no shocks, no air or fuel filters, half of its spark plugs, watered-down gas, no rear brakes, one headlight, no heat, three quarts low on oil, with half of its radiator coolant, etc. Corruption can consist of “subtraction” as well as “addition.” Protestantism’s charges against Catholicism, closely scrutinized, only come back to incriminate itself.

By and large, Protestantism merely asserts “sola Scriptura” without much consideration of the seriously-flawed implications of the same, and judges all doctrines accordingly. Therefore, those which are deemed to be either outright unbiblical or insufficiently grounded in Scripture to be authoritative, are jettisoned: the Marian doctrines, Purgatory, Penance, the papacy, etc. Apart from the question of Tradition as a legitimate carrier (alongside and in harmony with Scripture) of Christian belief, much more biblical support can be found in Scripture for these “Catholic” doctrines than Protestants suppose.

One simply needs to become familiar with Catholic biblical apologetic arguments. The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church.

Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before lashing out at the allegedly “unbiblical excesses” of Catholicism.

Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?
 

Bobby Jo

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... there are people within Christ's Church that are flawed - the Church itself is not. ...

"Churches" have doctrines. And doctrines are conclusions by men. Thus church doctrines are inherently flawed, and churches are flawed.

Anytime you have men, you have flaws. The only "perfection" is Christ Himself, and while we can aspire to be like Him under Him, (i.e., in his "church"), EVERY ORGANIZATION is imperfect, some more than others, but ALL are imperfect.

And as you correctly observe, they function under men which removes us FURTHER from perfection.

To believe otherwise is cultic.
Bobby Jo
 
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Mungo

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"Churches" have doctrines. And doctrines are conclusions by men. Thus church doctrines are inherently flawed, and churches are flawed.

Anytime you have men, you have flaws. The only "perfection" is Christ Himself, and while we can aspire to be like Him under Him, (i.e., in his "church"), EVERY ORGANIZATION is imperfect, some more than others, but ALL are imperfect.

And as you correctly observe, they function under men which removes us FURTHER from perfection.

To believe otherwise is cultic.
Bobby Jo

If doctrines were just invented just by men then what you say would be true (as it is for Protestants).

But it isn't for the Catholic Church.

Jesus promised the apostles (and therefore their successors) that the the Holy Spirit would remind them of all Jesus taught them (John 14:26) and lead into all truth (John 16:13).
Therefore it's not just men, but men +the Holy Spirit.
 

Bobby Jo

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... and just so we all know, -- individuals who assert that that Catholic Church is associated with Revelation prophecies typical of Chapters 12, 13, 17 are incorrect. Some may be ignorant, and others maybe be intellectually dishonest, but in all my studies I find NO EVIDENCE whatsoever of any religious connotation where others imagine and accuse otherwise.

And so my interest in the "Catholic Church" is from such FALSE accusations.
Bobby Jo
 

Brakelite

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It's ALSO no secret that in MANY places without constant supervision, the Gospel was diluted and perverted.
None more so than in Rome itself. As for Patrick, the Papacy didn't know what to do with him until after he was long gone. By inventing stories and myths and legends in ordrr to create a connection to Rome, finally decided to call him a saint while persecuting then destroying the church he founded. Those Christians that followed Patrick had nothing to do with Rome either... Like Aiden...Dinooth...Columba...Columbanus...
 

marksman

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I'm NOT surprised that you have "no comment" when it comes to honest Protestants who recognize the Catholic Church's unbroken line of succession to the Apostles.

I would be speechless, too if I were you . . .
No comment.
 

marksman

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Without listing some of the author's of these books, this is just an empty claim. Various books and volumes on church history are based on 18th century polemics, still used by anti-Catholics today. Scholars pouring over ancient archives discover historical facts that don't measure up to the fiction propagated by anti-Catholics. That's why the more mature Protestant bible colleges no longer teach revisionism. Protestant Ph.D.'s in history who write books after 1960's, after the ancient archives were opened, catalogued, and digitalized, no longer teach that anti-Catholic post-enlightenment garbage either.

And more conclusively, I do not see any reference to the catholic church in the Bible. If it is there do let me know. Most references to the church are the church in Ephesus. The church at Galatia. The church in Crete. The church in Rome. The church in Thesolianaca. Nowhere does it say the Roman Catholic church in these places.
 

marksman

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There is a lot of confusion and argument about baptism by immersion in the scope of things. On day one, the day of Pentecost, the listeners were told to repent and be baptised for the remission of sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

That sounds very much like to me that repentance and baptism were part and parcel of the same thing. It does not say "Repent, and be bapitsed if you feel like it." NO, if the listeners wanted their sins remitted they had to repent and be baptised. To separate the two is to separate the truth.

it was not a one-off thing on the day of Pentecost as there are references to it throughout Acts.

Baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. Mark 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. As John was already preaching this, baptism as a requirement for the remission of sins would already have been understood by the Jews.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water to repentance; but He who is coming after me is stronger than me, of whom I am not able to lift The sandals. He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,

Mark 1:5 And all the Judean country and those of Jerusalem went out to him, and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. Once again repentance and baptism in the same breath.

Mark 16:16 The one believing and being baptized will be saved. And the one not believing will be condemned.

Acts 2:41 Then truly the ones gladly welcoming His Word were baptized.

Acts 8:13 And Simon himself also believed, and being baptized was continuing steadfastly with Philip. And seeing miraculous signs and mighty works happening, he was amazed.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to remain some days. (Note not in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit)

Acts 16:33 And taking them in that hour of the night, he washed from their stripes. And he and all those belonging to him were baptized at once. (not when they felt like it)

Acts 19:5 And hearing, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. (again, not when they felt like it and in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Acts 22:16 And now what do you intend? Rising up, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Baptism and cleansing in the same sentence.

Gal 3:27 For as many as were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ. This is a very important verse as it shows that baptism by immersion is putting on Christ. This suggests that if you are not baptized by immersion you have not put on Christ. That is the reason why the new believers were baptized after repentance and why they were so powerful in their testimony. They had put on Christ. When you put something on, say a shirt and then put a coat on top of that you don't see the shirt. Do people see you, the shirt or do they see Christ the coat?

I say to all those of you that have not been baptized by immersion in the name of Jesus, why are you ignoring the direct teaching of scripture and denying yourself the benefit that comes when you are baptized in the name of Jesus.? We ALL need to put Christ on and baptism by immersion is the way that it happens.
 
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marksman

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Doctrines agreed upon by all develop, too.
  • The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325,
  • and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.
  • The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451.
These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?

Although understanding increases, the essential elements of doctrines exist from the beginning. Today’s Church shouldn’t be expected to look like the primitive Church if it is a living, vibrant, spiritual organism. But even the early Church looks like a small “Catholic tree.” It doesn’t look like a Protestant “statue,” doomed to be increasingly corrupted by an encroaching, “diabolical” Catholicism, as is imagined by millions of Protestants unacquainted with the early Church and the oldest source materials after the New Testament, such as the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (d.c. 110) and St. Clement of Rome (d.c.101).

One thing at least is certain; whatever history teaches . . . at least the Christianity of history is not Protestantism. If ever there were a safe truth, it is this. And Protestantism . . . as a whole, feels it, and has felt it. This is shown in the determination . . . of dispensing with historical Christianity altogether, and of forming a Christianity from the Bible alone . . . To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant.​
John Henry Cardinal Newman (1801-1890), Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine

Protestantism is inconsistent in its selective espousal of Christian beliefs. The so-called “Catholic distinctives” were merely cast off at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century – basically due to prejudice and ignorance. Protestantism ever since has had to either distort, ignore, or be embarrassed by the facts of early Christian history which, again and again, are found to be much more in conjunction with Catholicism. Protestant anti-Catholic apologists are notorious for searching for quotes by Church Fathers which appear to support their presuppositions, while bypassing those (often by the same Father) which clearly suggest the Catholic outlook. I did this myself in the year before I was convinced of the truth of Catholicism.

Newman states, in summary:


If it be true that the principles of the later Church are the same as those of the earlier, then, whatever are the variations of belief between the two periods, the later in reality agrees more than it differs with the earlier, for principles are responsible for doctrines. Hence they who assert that the modern Roman system is the corruption of primitive theology are forced to discover some difference of principle between the one and the other; for instance, that the right of private judgment was secured to the early Church and has been lost to the later, or again, that the later Church rationalizes and the earlier went by faith.​
(Ibid., ch. 7, section 6: conclusion)

This is true whether the theological considerations are those agreed upon by all, such as the Divinity of Christ, the Two Natures of Christ, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, Original Sin, and the Canon of Scripture, or those denied by Protestants, such as the Marian dogmas, Purgatory, the papacy, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Communion of Saints, priestly absolution, baptismal regeneration, the Sacrifice of the Mass, etc.

If anything must be described, then, as a corruption of primitive, pure Christianity, it is Protestantism, not Catholicism, since it introduced a radically new mode of Christian authority which was a 180-degree departure from the established Christian Tradition: that of subjective, private judgment, tied in with the unbiblical, unhistorical, and unreasonable notion of “Scripture Alone.” Protestantism is much more of a corruption, if that word is defined as an essential change of direction or philosophy of an institution or a set of beliefs (in this case theological and spiritual).

One might say that an automobile was “corrupt” if the owner decided that it ran better with no muffler, no shocks, no air or fuel filters, half of its spark plugs, watered-down gas, no rear brakes, one headlight, no heat, three quarts low on oil, with half of its radiator coolant, etc. Corruption can consist of “subtraction” as well as “addition.” Protestantism’s charges against Catholicism, closely scrutinized, only come back to incriminate itself.

By and large, Protestantism merely asserts “sola Scriptura” without much consideration of the seriously-flawed implications of the same, and judges all doctrines accordingly. Therefore, those which are deemed to be either outright unbiblical or insufficiently grounded in Scripture to be authoritative, are jettisoned: the Marian doctrines, Purgatory, Penance, the papacy, etc. Apart from the question of Tradition as a legitimate carrier (alongside and in harmony with Scripture) of Christian belief, much more biblical support can be found in Scripture for these “Catholic” doctrines than Protestants suppose.

One simply needs to become familiar with Catholic biblical apologetic arguments. The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church.

Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before lashing out at the allegedly “unbiblical excesses” of Catholicism.

Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching?
I do not think that anyone can comprehend the Church as we know it until we understand that the original church was Jewish known as "The Way"a sect of Judaism. The NTC was NOT a Christian church or a roman catholic one.
 

Mungo

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Then you're a cult member. Because ALL doctrines are conclusions by men, and defended by men. Otherwise they'd be SCRIPTURE.

That may be your opinion but that is all.
Forexample, some churches have a "tribulation era rapture" doctrine, and although they defend it as a TRUTH, it's a LIE. And I'm not going to itemize the FALSE Doctrines of ANY SPECIFIC RELIGION, because as I've repeatedly stated, ALL churches are imperfect because man is involved.

As such, it behooves us all to identify and acknowledge what is of GOD, and what is of man. And if I might add -- the more doctrines, the more error, which is intuitive.
Bobby Jo

That may be your opinion but that is all.
 

Bobby Jo

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That may be your opinion ...

Any insistence that ANY church set of doctrines are infallible is nonsense, -- especially the Catholic church.

And that's not an "opinion", it's a FACT, -- but it doesn't dissuade cult members.
Bobby Jo
 
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