I'm not giving up my beliefs for anyone....
But that doesn't mean that I can't work with or along side of those who have different ideas about the Gospel message....(I couldn't go to church if that were the case)
Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?
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But that doesn't mean that I can't work with or along side of those who have different ideas about the Gospel message....(I couldn't go to church if that were the case)
break this down in 2 parts what is? good question in the book of acts we find good examples of unity
Acts 4:32-35
King James Version
32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need..
in verse 32 it shows 1. were of one heart 2. one soul .3 had all things in common can we say this about Church denominations today ? can we a side our doctrine differences focus on the Kingdom of God
verse 33 we see the results Great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of Jesus. the other results GREAT Grace was upon them all.
none lacked anything the sold their possessions and gave to the cause. ia m not suggesting we sell all and give it away. iam just pointing out how the early Church was formed . even when the wall was built they had a mind to work. i am glad to say the Church i pastor and another Church takes turns once a month going to each others Church on sunday night . it works out well
the next question is it impossible no . But it takes a mind set. seek ye first the kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness
Exactly True.
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
God does not heed begging and pleading, but only repentance.
For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
For ye know how that afterward, when (Esau) would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
If we sin, then like any man sinning, we only need repent from the heart and confess the sin to God, and Jesus Christ is righteous to forgive us and wash us clean in His blood.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Legalism is seeking to keep commandment without faith toward God,
And/or adding our own personal rules of holiness to the law of Christ.
I was once a holiness pentecostal preacher. I laid that false calling down, when I learned from the Bible that the rules were of men, and not of God.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using
after the commandments and doctrines of men?Actually, it's more like we read a Scripture and wring a false doctrine out of it, but maybe that's just splitting hairs.. prove your salvation by speaking in tongues. i probably kicked and broke the Golden cow of religions ceremonies, we read a scripture and make it a doctrine . i agree to the above
I agree with you're take on it too.
i find this interesting i have ran on to those who was Baptist but reverted over to Pentecostalism . but never use be Pentecost. what was the turning point that created the change . could you elaborate on the Holiness Pentecostal preacher ? is this apostolic Pentecost i am not Pentecostal. i was ordained by the general Baptist. i am more of a non denom than anything . i see good and i see bad in all
Actually, God by the Bible only exposed man's made up holiness vs God's true holiness, after I had departed the organizational ministry.
The devil will also duplicate and corrupt with whatever is true of God. There is God's righteousness and true holiness, and then there is man's righteousness and false holiness.
It's the Christian holiness version of Pharisee law making.
It's basically adding personal rules to 'fill the gaps' not seen first in the law of Moses, and now in the law of Christ.
The Pharisees 'itemized' and 'defined' what working is on the Sabbath, rather than just leave it as common sense working on the Sabbath.
And so they faulted Jesus with breaking the Sabbath by rubbing ears of corn to eat and even healing. What they were judging Him by was their own traditions about the Sabbath, not the commandment of the Sabbath by Moses.
Jesus just kept flaunting their traditions openly before the people to show the liberty of the law, and this is why they hated Him so much. For them it was all about power and being Lord's over god's heritage.
It's the same with holiness Pentecostals and their own leaders today. They make zero tolerance policies in the name of holy living, such as taste no wine to drink, touch no woman's hair to cut, and see no show to watch. (Except of course for their own great shows from the pulpit)
It's all about power over the obedient believers. It usurps the sole Headship authority of Jesus Christ over His own body.
If we preach the distinct words of the Bible, then we minister Christ to the people. If we preach our own words as the Bible, then we minister ourselves as Christ to the people.
If people believe personal rules from our own minds, as being the commandments of God, then we become God to the people to obey.
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using
after the commandments and doctrines of men?Korah's company accused Moses of doing that, and ministering to them his own commandments, and not only those from the mouth of the Lord:
And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
Holiness and apostolic are the same thing. Pentecost are all about 'holiness'. The personalized standards and rules of living holy in all manner of conversation.
The problem of course is they run amok in their puppeteering power, and beginning preaching their own holiness rules as the holy commandments of God.
This is especially among the great Pentecostal organizations rising up last century. The basically hi-jacked the baptism of the Holy Ghost from the Isuzu street revival.
They took over the moving of the Spirit by organizing God's holiness living into specific rules, that the Bible never specifically says. And voila! the traditions of Pentecostal men established for doctrine and law of Christ.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
It destroys the liberty of the law of Christ and the freedom of the Spirit, the same as the Pharisees destroyed the liberty of the law of Moses, such as that of the Sabbath. I mean what kind of reprobate holier-than-thou can a person be, to condemn healing on the Sabbath?
Well, the same can be said for them condemning men wearing shorts (unless it's for military) and women cutting hair (unless it catches fire).
We can always spot a commanded personal rule of man vs the commandments of the Lord: Man must always make exceptions for practical living on earth. But with the law of Christ, there are no exceptions for murder, fornication, drunkenness, thefts, false accusation, etc...
Right. I now see like God sees: good in the doers of good, and bad in the doers of bad.
I used to see as a holiness Pentecost: only good in them with us doing our holiness rules, and only bad in all them not with us not doing our holiness rules.
Now I only see the commandment and law of Christ, with them doing His word, and them not. And some of them doing not, are hearers only in Christian religion.
And the first one I always see is in the mirror.
and yes of course i had wanted to say that because that is our compass . im not going to reply to all your points. i find them %100 . we have a apostolic church that is or seems to be growing very active in the community . i know a fair amount about there doctrine very nice folks . but if i may say this respectfully it concerns me they focus so much on baptism in Jesus name for the remission of sins . yes of course the baptism of the spirit the evidence of speaking in tongues . i am not anti tongues provided its done decently and in order . i will also be the first to say i dont understand there use of tongues . myself i have never spoke in tongues for many . when i listen to them talk its as if your never saved or never experienced the fullness of the spirit if you dont.
you are the first of your type being a former Holiness minister speak out the way you have.
may i ask you elaborate on this i am asking for my own personal knowledge.
interesting and very informative
my next question is are you still preaching ? if not you should you have a message of liberty in Christ
i understand holiness/ sanctified /set apart i also see it as 3 step progress . 1 positional saved placed into the body of Christ 2. progressive we become a work in progress WIP . we grow in the grace and knowledge which never ends.
3 finial we made it home we have our glorified body P T L; im glad he does not give up on me .. as i can go to the potters house and be placed on the potters wheel and made a better vessel
agreed 100 %
They call it soulwinning by purposed witnessing. The JW's as a whole hold the market on that. And many times, that's what it is: marketing souls to recruit. It becomes nothing but local church recruitment, with no real neighborliness. They only play nice in order to recruit, but they have no personal interest in people otherwise.
The 'evangelical' Islamists have a handbook for it. And the 'missionary' Jews were infamous for it in the Roman empire. From time to time an emperor would run them and their proselytizing out of Rome.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
The most widespread expulsion such missionary Jews, was by Claudius. They literally went door to door to peddle their own religious wares. With a nice smile, of course.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
There neighborliness is that of an unscrupulous used car salesman. It only lasts on the car lot.
Oneness Pentecostals. The Father, Son, and Spirit are all one and the same Person. The Godhead is one Person only. I was a trinity Pentecostal. Unlike trinitarians, the oneness Christians hang their doctrinal hat on it, so that they separate themselves by it from all other Christians.
It's the main source of division in the churches , that produces whole sects and denominations. Paul condemned it as personally following a certain leader to the point of opposition with other Christians, rather than only following Jesus as the example for all His members to live by.
The same kind of division is made by special doctrines and rules produced by a tradition, rather than the Bible alone.
Here's a list I know of: Holiness Pentecosts (Whether oneness or trinitarian), Baptizers in Jesus name only. Baptizers for salvation. Sabbath commanders (Whether Saturday or Sunday). Created christ believers (JWs are also Pentecostal holiness types) There are others, but basically they completely separate themselves from any and all other Christians, that do not conform to their special doctrine and rule.
I'm now a Jesus reformed live-and-let-live Christian. I don't gladhand fornications naming Christ, but neither do I avoid fellowship based upon personal beliefs and rules.
Such 'specialized' Christians become only interested in making new proselytes to themselves, rather than winning souls to Jesus Christ.
The Oneness folks declare that a Christian must baptized with the exact words spoken "In Jesus' name', otherwise they declare the new babe in Christ is not 'properly' baptized. I'm not sure if they go so far as to hang salvation on it, but it's certainly necessary in order to be a proper member of their churches.
This statement alone shows how the churches of God become 'our' church and 'their' churches.
I have by necessity become a sort of master on this stuff from the Bible.
When I left that Pentecostal cult, I lost my wife and career. And sort of like Paul converted on the road to Damascus, I spent the next several years nearly isolated from past family and friends. Paul first went for a a few years to further Arabia to be shown by the Lord in the Bible, how they got so far off the Bible, that they crucified their own prophesied Messiah. I too learned exactly how and why we had gotten so far from the truth of Jesus' ministry. Paul learned from the OT Bible how and why they killed their own Messiah, and I learned the same from the Old and NT about how to 'kill' the Headship of Jesus over His own body of believers.
So, since you ask, I'm going to go into these details, and be a bit long winded.
There are cancer survivors and cult survivors. I knew many who 'escaped' the cult, only to then 'blow out' from Jesus Christ altogether.
I however just continued praying and reading my Bible as before, and that very day of separation God began to show me in His words exactly what was true of His ministry, and what was not.
Cults spiritually and doctrinally usurp the Headship of Jesus Christ, to become heads and lords over the sincere-hearted, yet unguarded believers. Their ministry becomes theirs alone for power, profit, pride, etc... 'The Pastor' literally becomes the Head and Leader and Example of his own church and/or organization of churches as Founder.
While they protest with words against doing any such thing, they in practice make themselves abusive lord's over God's sheep. And the sheep being ignorant of Christ's law are more than willing to believe the commandments of men, that certainly sound great and holy and righteous, but are not those of God.
And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies;
Paul spoke of that ministerial temptation as a Christian apostle, that he had known so well as a leader in the Jews religion.
Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth. So as we not have dominion over your faith, but we are to be helpers of your for by faith ye stand.
Paul's temptation was to rush to Corinth like an angry whirlwind and 'whip' everyone into shape. Cult leaders purposely do that under the banner of 'keeping discipline' in their own church organization.
It begins honestly enough by marking the unruly and unrighteous, but degrades over time into personal power over the body. They leave marking the ungodly, and go on to 'exposing' and 'disfellowshipping' the disloyal. They 'purge' the church of those that are not 100% loyal to his rules and dominion. It becomes all about the 'great' Pastor's personal commandment and power, rather than having anything to do with Christ's righteous discipline over the members His body.
It all comes down to the simple and subtle fact of beginning to preach our own words as the words of God, when the Bible does not confirm them as God's own words.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
God is not saying that there can be no personal interpretation of the Bible, but that we should not preach our private beliefs as the Bible, and especially not our own personal Christian rules as the law of Christ. The Bible gives us the commonwealth law and rule, while we can have our own personal rules of our own household. Abuse of ministerial liberty begins when we preach our own home-rules for all the community to obey and follow.
Jesus was and is the only man that could preach His own words, so that they were the words of God in heaven. Because He was God the Son on earth.
But the principle for all other believers and ministers, is that we should only believe the minister's word as being of the Lord, if and when those words are indeed proven to be that of the Bible. We can all have our own things of God by personal faith, but we must never minister them as the things of God for believing Christians.
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Bible discipline is not just for interpreting the Bible, but is most important in ministering only the Bible, and not any of our own interpretations. It's up to us to ensure for our own soul's sake, that we are not just swallowing a bunch of worms from a false ministerial bird.
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
We must ensure we are only drinking the sincere milk of the word, as written, not as what we want to be written. Paul didn't mind believers going to the Scriptures to prove whether his preaching was true of God or not. And any preacher that gets offended by it, or even appears peeved by it, is just another little self-important petty potentate, who thinks all Christians ought to readily believe whatever he preaches and teaches, just because he's the one doing so. They become grand-poohbahs of the pulpit. And despots over their own congregation.
You see, once any sincere-hearted Christian believes the personal word and rule of the preacher, to be as that of God, and it's not God's word in the Bible, then that 'Leader' literally becomes Lord and God to them obeying his personal word and rule, as unto the Lord.
It's basically limiting the Holy Ghost, and shutting down true spiritual worship by mechanical rules imposed over the worship service. Like all things, they begin good for decency and order, just as Paul admonishes in 1 Cor 14, but in time the overzealous and power-hungry literally shut out the Holy Ghost from the 'worship' service, so as to focus more on the preacher and his words, than on Jesus and His own words and Spirit.
Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
We can limit the Spirit in our own lives by our transgressions, but dominating ministers limit the Holy Ghost in whole congregation by unbiblical rules imposed on them from the pulpit. This includes such mechanical efforts meant to inspire congregations to worship.
Take the modern church practice of stage bands and singers. In themselves they are a blessing; however, by making themselves the centerpiece of all songs and worship, they truly limit the Spirit, who has much more free-course with the worshippers who sing for themselves from the 'old' song hymnals.
God wants all His people singing and worshipping Him with an instrument of ten strings, and not just a few trained professionals 'leading' everyone else. They literally stand their sometimes trying to exhort more participation among an 'audience', that they refuse to allow to sing with songbooks in their own hands.
Once again, it's usually about pride in being the center of attention. They will never admit it, but only say they 'serve' the church by spending so much time practicing for their really great performances. The church I attend truly does preach Jesus Christ with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven. Which is why I go there. But I no longer bother with the staged song-show posing as 'worship-leaders'.
These kind of machinations on the part of 'great leaders' of the worship and lives of the saints, especially by 'holiness' carnal ordinances, is what corrupted the whole generational move the Holy Ghost in the early 1900's. Unlike the great revival of the 1700's in America, whole organizations of 'Pentecostal' churches were built by leading 'organizers' of whole churches based solely upon 'holiness' living. They proceeded to institute outward holiness rules in all their churches, which were just the commandments of men that Jesus never gave to His chosen apostles.
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
What was rightly given by the Lord in the law of Moses, in order to have good rule over a carnal people, has been similarly commanded to spiritual Christians of the NT All in the name of 'holiness' living. What was carnal ordinances meant by God only to remain until the spiritual reformation of Christ's resurrection, has now been commanded in similar fashion by modern Pharisitical rule makers.
By turning over our lives to a bunch of 'zero-tolerance' holiness policies, we limit the Holy One of Israel from flooding our souls with His Spirit of grace. Our hearts can become just as hardened by overzealous righteousness and false holiness, even as by open transgressions of the great commandments.
On the one side, we have unrepented sinners 'celebrating' their own grace, and on the other we have holier-than-thou specialists trumpeting their own holiness.
Such Pentecostal zealots go haywire in 'holiness' carnal ordinances imposed upon themselves and their followers, to see who can outdo one another in their holiness zeal. The Pharisees did the same. It becomes a pride-show, and as Paul notes among the Galatians, it also becomes an evil spy quest. Avoiding the appearance of evil becomes an inner spy-ring, that has no more has anything to do with keeping a good Christian testimony before the unbelievers. What is intended by God not to offend the consciences of unbelieving witnesses, is made into a NAZI-style police state used to 'forcibly conform' the members to leadership rules. Or else be ostracized and disfellowshipped at the drop of an inflationary hat.
And so, as usual, it becomes more and more about the holiness rules and leadership power, than about the move of the Holy Ghost. I know, because I was an enforcer and informant. Not unto death like Saul of Tarsus, but absolutely unto casting some out of our churches.
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Once I began to show by the Bible how such things were not the ministry of Christ, I was publicly denounced as a devil, by the very ones I had loved and was loved by only weeks before. But hey, I took it as a badge of honor to be a newborn sheep among old time wolves.
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Nowadays, if we go to any 'organizational' Pentecost church, there will no doubt be some spitting and spluttering, but it's just a forced and dim reminder of the once-powerful Holy Ghost preaching of the past. There are still independent Pentecostal churches, who leave off proselytizing for holiness rules, and stick with the Holy Ghost preaching of Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
These preachers are honest and sincere as the apostles, and God has free-course to save, justify, and be worshipped in Spirit and in truth for the edifying of the saints. They do as Paul says and let the believers work out our own salvation and holy manner of life.
Which is best done in our own private prayer 'closets'. Paul did not forbid speaking in tongues in congregations, because the Spirit can prophecy to the hearers by them. But like many spiritual things, it can be corrupted by personal shows and pride. And especially by overdone mechanical devices used for 'decency and order'.
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
In prayer we sometimes don't know what to say, or even run out of things to say, but we want to continue in the blessed refreshing of praying in the Spirit. And so, God gives us the tongues of angels, which we don't try to understand, but only continue doing so as long we are praying.
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, Keeping yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Afterall, there's only so much to say in prayer, and so rather than become repetitious, we can continue in heavenly tongues.
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
This is where the baptism of the Holy Ghost is most profitable to the soul and heart.
Some Christians only spend as must time in prayer, so as to make their praise, requests, and complaints known to God. It's not wrong, but there is much more spiritual prayer available to the justified believer in Jesus Christ.
What do you think I've been doing here?
I minister this liberty to individuals as occasion arises. I also minister righteousness to those who want to hear.I do not seek full time ministry for one good reason: I'm not yet retired from my own new business career.
I have learned from the Bible, that there are many uncalled premature Christians preaching before their time. They are certainly sincere, but also sincerely out of their depth, and many of them make things worse than better. Paul told the Corinthians that they were better of at times just staying home, rather than congregating together and just messing things up.
No pulpit is better than a bad pulpit. Christians don't need preachers to repent and be saved and justified by Christ. What we need is true Bible preaching of the gospel to mature our walk with Jesus.
No Christian should ever seek the high calling of God to full-time ministry, before we have sufficiently retired from our own business to our own satisfaction. Otherwise, we are tempted as so many have to make our profitable career by the church-building business.
Why did Jesus consent to go with His parents from the temple, rather than simply go on to His calling of ministry to the Jews first, and then the Gentiles also? Was He not God, and the Word of God in the flesh? Was He not righteous and truly holy in all things pleasing to the Father? Was He not yet made perfect in the word, doctrine, and prophecy of God? Yes, and yet the Father commanded His Son to wait until the age of 30.
Why? Because He was not yet made perfect in reputation among the Jews, but succeeding in His own craft and business to the fullest.
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
As a child Jesus had all the things of God necessary to minister His word and will perfectly.
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
However, later we see the man Jesus had also gained favor with God and man. As a child in the temple, He had not yet proved the His own promise to Joshua and all Jews, to bless and prosper them in all their life and business.
And since it was necessary for the Son Himself on earth, then it is certainly also necessary for all believers that would seek to be called by Christ into His full ministry. Successfully retiring from our own business removes to main stumbling blocs int he ministry: Seeking profitable success and being a young novice thinking to serve the community and church. Many of them build themselves churches for profit, because they have not yet obeyed the first commandment of God to all men and women, which is to be fruitful and multiply in our own lives.
Success in the ministry of Christ is seeing sinners repent and become Christian sons of God in Christ Jesus. It's not seeing financial success to provide for our own. That should only be done in the world's marketplace, not in the churches of God.
The Father's business is not the church-building people business, but is in the church-edifying loving people business.
Only Jesus builds His church by His ministered word of faith. All other builders are intruders and corrupters of His ministry. The only builders spoken of in the NT other than Jesus Himself, are the ones that end up rejecting the Head of the corner, in order to build their own little corner of profit and power for themselves.
And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
The husbandmen knew when they were casting out the Son of the Lord, in order to take the Lord's vineyard for themselves. The truth is, that every would be ministerial church-builder, that usurps the Headship of Jesus, knowingly crosses that forbidden line into purposed profit sharing and power, just like any business mogul on earth. In the world's business, more profit and power to them. But in the Father's business, more condemnation and destruction to them, and their loyal followers unto the end.
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
That is when Christ Himself lets them entirely alone on their own, and the Spirit departs from any pretense of ministry, so that Ichabod is written on their door post, even as their ministry speaks of great success and profit.
Wanting to be a success is ordained of God to every person He creates in His own image. But wanting to be a 'success' in building churches is a death nail to the ministry of Christ. They inherently want and need to be successfully profitable, which is given by the Spirit of Christ. Their efforts to keep their ministry sincerely for the people, is a continuous battle against the godly inborn desire to succeed, that is given by God when creating us in His image.
However fulfilling God's command to success by His calling to service and ministry, inevitably leads to some manner of merchandizing the sheep for profit. And some go on to dominating their newly gained sheep, that they begin serving the church by ministerially killing their perceived disloyal enemies.
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
What we see here is a sort of 'end-times' cycle of a rising star in the ministry, making himself into an antichrist beast against the honest ministry of Christ. Rather than being ambassadors in Christ's stead, they become heads instead of Christ Jesus.
No sincere Christian wakes up one day and decides to become an antichrist builder of his own church. It only happens when the sincere become ever-more corrupted by premature self-calling into the ministry of Christ. Sooner or later that little leaven and itch for success, leavens the whole ministerial lump.
The antichrist beast cycle is always the same: A premature uncalled sincere Christian begins ministry like a star in the heavens of God, and ultimately falls into the deep and bottomless pit of man's ministry of personal commandments for profit first, and then for power when profits no longer matter.
Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
you still have a ministry .there is a door waiting for you i have had make a few doors open . its not popular going against the grain . america is full of grains
Which is best done in our own private prayer 'closets'. Paul did not forbid speaking in tongues in congregations, because the Spirit can prophecy to the hearers by them. But like many spiritual things, it can be corrupted by personal shows and pride. And especially by overdone mechanical devices used for 'decency and order'. i agree to be honest with you . i am not totally convinced that much of the tongues used today is the same bible tongues paul wrote about. i been in charismatic services ive seen the run up to walls and act like they was in a trance. ive watched the so called slain in the spirit. i have heard most the church speaking in tongues had no idea what was said there is a gift its Bible . if its done decently and in order one will understand what is going on.
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i have been in many forums over the years no offence but i have found you can be who or what ever you want on a forum. i belong to one i have person i can minister to in private. whats crazy they are a moderator and does not know the Bible very well. i have many times assured them of their salvation this is a pretty free forum .but there are some way out there lol
True. The Bible calls it being newborn of God, Growing in the grace of God, and resurrection from the dead.
It's not progressive in deeds, but in enduring in purity of heart and life. We repent for Jesus' sake and are made a whole new creature in righteousness of heart and true holiness of life.
We grow in the grace of that purity of life, by trials of our faith, to overcome temptation and tribulation and sin not. We learn through all such trials, to continue in the faith of Jesus doing well without the sinning. Even as He did for the Father's sake.
By repentance from sinning for Jesus' sake. We become newborn of God, with all things of heart and life being at once now of God.
It is the circumcision of Christ and sanctification of His Spirit.
Maturing in righteousness and true holiness, becoming sons of God by earning how to overcome all temptations, yet without sinning. Even as the child Jesus did from His youth up.
Growing in grace of God is growing in purity and holiness of life. it's not 'progressively growing' to become better sinners and sin less than before.
I no longer minister man's holiness to the churches, and never ministered man's sinfulness to the churches.
We are grafted into God's green and holy olive tree, with holy roots only producing holy fruit.
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches...and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Born sons of God made wholly new and pure of heart and life, that do go back to sins and trespasses, bastardize themselves with our Father, and become unrighteous branches broken off, even as the disobedient Jews of old:
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
However, since God is kind to the unjust and just alike, then He is still merciful to His own prodigals.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
If we abide not in disobedience, then God is able to graff us in again as well.
Not in this life, but only in the resurrection of Jesus' likeness:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
God only gives up on them that knew God and worshipped Him not as God, and repented not of their transgressing to return and be spared by God.
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections
And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
True, if we go on to sin, then we can repent and return to the Lord, to be forgiven of our sin and washed clean from all unrighteousness.
And Samuel spake unto all the house of Israel, saying, If ye do return unto the LORD with all your hearts, then put away the strange gods and Ashtaroth from among you, and prepare your hearts unto the LORD, and serve him only.
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
God is longsuffering unto repentance to them that know not God, and to us that now know God, if we sin against Him.
The way to the Father by the Son is now made simple and easy: Just repent of our sinning for His sake, and He will wipe all the old life away instantly, by one quick and powerful swipe of His sword.
The sword of the Spirit has Jesus' blood on it to give life, not our blood to kill us.
My response was a bit of a joke. I do not consider what I do here to be a preaching ministry to people in my presence. It is more of a good place to exercise Bible discipline in the preaching the truth, and countering lies.
And so I let my words speak for themselves, at least pertaining to true doctrine of Christ.
How we actually live can't be known by hearing alone. However, I can say many Christains on this site live sinfally, because they preach it.
Some preach righteousness while doing unrighteousness, but no one preaches unrighteousness while doing righteousness. Hypocrisy is a one-way street.
True. But I appreciate the fact that they do not ban people based upon Bible accuracy, but only on Christian etiquette.
However, one's man's etiquette is another man's pleasing of men.
I doubt if they would allow the Baptist and Jesus freedom in rebuking the liars and gainsayers:
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
i agree but to some degree we are preaching. i do believe your the real deal. in most cases i don't beat around the bush i say what i mean and mean what i say
Great response, thank you! I AGREE 100%.
It's been interesting to see the response to this topic question
in light of the typical interest in importance of doctrinal unity.
But at "what cost?", I ask.
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Edification is not really understood by most internet theologians.
But basically God created each of us to be an individual and has a unique relationship with each of us that believe.
Each of us is uniquely created to perform and behave and grow uniquely. Meaning that each of us must have a unique view of the gospel as the motivations for each of us is different...creating different talents and abilities in each of us. That doesn't mean that each of us is necessarily more wrong or right but that since God is so big (infinite) no one can know God completely.
We can know the main & plain things...and many still get that wrong but many get these things correctly as well. The reason they get it right is relationships....
If I mention a relationship between my son and myself so many believe it exists without a doubt....but mention a relationship between God and myself and the WHOLE WORLD begins to question it...even fellow believers. It just requires faith that many don't own. (And an ability to live/behave in a grateful manner)
So....those of us with more faith have to lead those with no/little faith and they parrot us ad nauseum....because they refuse to grow.
Prime example:
I bake cookies and make chocolate candies every year for Christmas and do other acts of kindness as I come along opportunities. And I have been accused by Christians and heathens alike of running scams and every sort of evil imaginable. And simply I just do not understand their fear of someone being generous and kind....especially by the Christians. Some have a difficult time even saying "thank you" or "Merry Christmas".
The world is losing touch with empathy, reality, and caring for their fellow humans. We hear about tragedy with one of our friends and our "goto" first thought is "glad it's not me" or "they should done things different" instead of "How do I help restore/comfort them?".
This internet is a medium to communicate with people around the world in any language we choose. But yet most choose to hide their identities for fear of reprisals and use their anonymity to perform any number of horrible activities. Everything from porn to inventing theologies to terrorism of the innocent.
(I've met f2f many I've conversed with here in the USA and internationally....they all say the same thing....I'm me, but moreso live in person). How difficult is it to be genuine? Apparently very!
There is some ministry being done here for the good, and not just disputing Bible doctrine. I have learned from some, and apply it to life for the better. And some have confessed the same from my efforts.
We can spot either the unlearned or the liar, by how much words and 'scholarship' they have to use to try and teach something, that is otherwise simple from the Bible.
Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
Like the Pharisees, they don't just spit it out honestly.
If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
A great example is the created christ believers, that supply endless reams of arguments from original languages and even manuscript debates, just to say the Word was not God.
Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
Like the unbelieving Jews of old, they purposely sidetrack things down a never-ending rabbit hole, just to avoid the plain English of our Bible.
And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
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