Wrong Teaching on "God's Sovereignty"=Worst Doctrine in Church today!!

[ScottA]

That is exactly what I believe, Scott. All prophecies of restoration of the two houses point to the generation of Christ in the first century. Peter and Paul emphasized the fulfillment of the restoration prophecies in Hosea 1 & 2:

"and ye [are] a choice race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people acquired, that the excellences ye may shew forth of Him who out of darkness did call you to His wondrous light; who [were] once not a people [the house of Israel], and [are] now the people of God; who had not found kindness [the house of Israel], and now have found kindness." -- 1Pet 2:9-10 YLT

"not only out of [the] Jews, but also out of [the] nations [the disapora], as also in Hosea He saith, "I will call what [is] not My people [the house of Israel]--My people; and her not beloved [the house of Israel]--Beloved," -- Rom 9:24-25 YLT

Most translations of Paul's rendition of the Hosea prophecy are misleading, that is, they lead many to believe Paul was speaking of the Gentiles, rather than the house of Israel scattered among the nations as the Hosea prophecy demands. Young's is a good translation, but Darby's is even better:

"us, whom he has also called, not only from amongst Jews [the house of Judah], but also from amongst nations [the house of Israel]?" -- Rom 9:24 DARBY 1890


For the record, Scott, I always honestly consider what I have quoted. I would never intentionally bring dishonor on the Lord, nor his Word. There are more than enough doing that already.



I do not interpret the prophecies of the NT in that manner. I believe we are at the end of the "thousand year reign", and Satan has already been released on an unsuspecting, world-wide church. That is, I believe we are here, the highlighted part:

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:" -- Rev 20:7-9 KJV

The "breadth of the earth" is the entire earth, by definition. The camp of the saints is the holy temple (Eph 2:19-22), and the beloved city is heavenly New Jerusalem [Heb 12:18-24], both of which are located on heavenly mount Sion.

I eagerly await the fulfillment of this part:

"and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them [Satan and his armies]." -- Rev 20:9 KJV




The Word of God is spirit, Scott. Your words are your words.

Rev

What is missing from your interpretation, is accounting for "the dead" and "the living" "in Christ", which are the two folds, the descendants of the first Adam, and the descendants of the Last Adam.

...And being born again of the spirit of God...it is not I who speaks, but the spirit of Christ.

 

[Rev20]

@Rev20
Philosophy it is not.
Jesus or anyone who speaks for God as led by the Holy Spirit with spoken words is speaking words that are Alive.

That is true of those who were led by the Holy Spirit. I feast on their words every day.

For the record, Jesus is God the Father.

When you or I quote what is written in the Bible AND we are filled with the Holy Spirit and being led by the Holy Spirit, the words we speak are Alive.

The scripture is the Holy Spirit, Amadeus. That is about as philosophical as I care to be.

Jesus being the Living Word of God could not speak other than the Living Word. You and I can because we are able to quench the Holy Spirit in favor of the our own spirit and our own carnal conclusions even when we use the written scripture as a basis.

Saying you are led by the spirit is one thing. Proving it is another. I have encounted thousands who claim to be led by the spirit. Yet I can count on two hand those who I believe were actually led by the spirit, and all possessed this characteristic: the written word of God was an integral part of their vocabulary.

The part of your words above underlined and highlighted by me is our problem. That argument is essentially what the RCC argues, which is why we are making no headway here. If you don't believe that the Comforter is for whosoever will, then we may have little hope of reconciling our differences.

Then we have little hope of reconciling our differences. The comforter was promised to the disciples.

I will make another effort to show you something and then you take it from there:

"So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter." Ecc 4:1

That was the situation in the OT who lived a wrote during those times. They had no comforter, no comforter from God that is. Again read these verses:

"Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself." Lament 1:9

"For these things I weep; mine eye, mine eye runneth down with water, because the comforter that should relieve my soul is far from me: my children are desolate, because the enemy prevailed." Lament 1:16

But it is not that the Comforter did not exist for see here some promises:

"Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;" Isaiah 51:11-12

So then you would believe that the Comforter is not now for anyone who needs comfort [for who does not], but only for those disciples who follow the man of flesh, Jesus when he was walking on planet earth some 2000 years ago?

You would be left then with Job's complaint:

"I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all." Job 16:2

Only a very small remnant were saved, Amadeus:

"Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." -- Isa 1:9 KJV

Paul, quoting the Septuagint, called it a "seed":

"And if the Lord of Sabaoth had not left us a seed, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been made like Gomorrha." -- Isa 1:9 LXX

"And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." -- Rom 9:29 KJV

That very small remnant received the comforter, by way of the disciples. This is the promise to the disciples:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:26 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:13 KJV

This is the first reference to the promise in the book of the Acts:

"The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." -- Acts 1:1-5 KJV

This it is the time when the disciples received the holy ghost:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." -- Acts 2:1-4 KJV

These were the eyewitnesses, and the firstfruits of the spirit:

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." -- Acts 2:5 KJV

They were saved by believing the word of God that Peter preached to them from the Old testament (Acts 2:14-40):

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." -- Acts 2:41 KJV


The words that Peter preached from the Old Testament were not obvious to those Jews prior to Peter explaining them. Peter and the other disciples had been taught from the law and prophets by Christ for 40 days prior to Christ's ascension; and at Pentecost they received additional instruction from Christ via the Holy Ghost to give them the ability to accurately interpret the mysteries of the law and the prophets, something the scribes and Pharisees could not do. But in all cases, they preached the written word. This is Paul:

"Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles." -- Acts 26:22-23 KJV

"For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain. And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee. But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not." -- Acts 28:20-24 KJV

And that is why the written word is important.

Rev

 

[Rev20]

Sorry about the fonts, I try to make them different from the other person's to make it is easier for my old eyes of flesh to distinguish between my writings and the other guy's. Naturally on longer more complex posts I am more likely to make mistakes. Again, sorry about that. I will try to do better.

Thanks, but no longer a problem. I figured out how to fix them with a couple of mouse clicks. I am finally getting the hang of this board.

As to the "Where does it say that?" All of it is generally in the scriptures with which you seem to be familiar. I seldom get my answers from other people's writings. They are usually my own written as I respond or more rarely copied and posted from my previous writings which I have saved to my computer. Of course, we differ in so many different places that what I see from scripture may well differ from what you see.

Every time I have quenched the Holy Spirit in me I likely have been misled. The same thing is true of everyone else who is not yet a complete overcomer yet as was Jesus. But, He is still working on me.

I am a believer in the old adage, "trust but verify"; and that works both ways. Therefore, I typically place the written word front-and-center for all to see, rather than ask them to rely on my paraphrase.

Rev

 

[amadeus]

That is true of those who were led by the Holy Spirit. I feast on their words every day.
For the record, Jesus is God the Father.

For many years I was a part of the UPC. They believed that.

The scripture is the Holy Spirit, Amadeus. That is about as philosophical as I care to be.

While I must respectfully disagree, I won't say more on this point.

Saying you are led by the spirit is one thing. Proving it is another. I have encounted thousands who claim to be led by the spirit. Yet I can count on two hand those who I believe were actually led by the spirit, and all possessed this characteristic: the written word of God was an integral part of their vocabulary.

Of course it is not my job to prove my situation to you. I have said what I have said. For you or for me, only God gives the increase and often He does use people.

Then we have little hope of reconciling our differences. The comforter was promised to the disciples.

Sorry to hear that. I cannot change what I believe just because someone says I am wrong. Probably the same thing holds for you.

Only a very small remnant were saved, Amadeus:

"Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah." -- Isa 1:9 KJV

Has it ever at any time been more than a remnant?

Paul, quoting the Septuagint, called it a "seed":

"And if the Lord of Sabaoth had not left us a seed, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been made like Gomorrha." -- Isa 1:9 LXX

"And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha." -- Rom 9:29 KJV

That very small remnant received the comforter, by way of the disciples. This is the promise to the disciples:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." -- John 14:26 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:13 KJV

This is the first reference to the promise in the book of the Acts:

"The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." -- Acts 1:1-5 KJV

This it is the time when the disciples received the holy ghost:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." -- Acts 2:1-4 KJV

These were the eyewitnesses, and the firstfruits of the spirit:

"And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." -- Acts 2:5 KJV

They were saved by believing the word of God that Peter preached to them from the Old testament (Acts 2:14-40):

"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." -- Acts 2:41 KJV


The words that Peter preached from the Old Testament were not obvious to those Jews prior to Peter explaining them. Peter and the other disciples had been taught from the law and prophets by Christ for 40 days prior to Christ's ascension; and at Pentecost they received additional instruction from Christ via the Holy Ghost to give them the ability to accurately interpret the mysteries of the law and the prophets, something the scribes and Pharisees could not do. But in all cases, they preached the written word. This is Paul:

"Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles." -- Acts 26:22-23 KJV

"For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain. And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee. But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against. And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not." -- Acts 28:20-24 KJV

And that is why the written word is important.
Rev

I am afraid that I did not read all of the last part of your post. It may have something to do with... but I won't speculate.

See you around the forum.

 

[Rev20]

What is missing from your interpretation, is accounting for "the dead" and "the living" "in Christ", which are the two folds, the descendants of the first Adam, and the descendants of the Last Adam.

...And being born again of the spirit of God...it is not I who speaks, but the spirit of Christ.

Do you have some scripture for that, Scott, so I can see the context? As you are probably aware by now, I am a stickler for context.

Rev

 

[ScottA]

Do you have some scripture for that, Scott, so I can see the context? As you are probably aware by now, I am a stickler for context.

Rev

Here are a few:

Luke 13:22-30
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

...But I would caution you in considering context. For the context of those things of the world, is not the context of those things of the kingdom. Nor is the object of any parable, the subject thereof...and therefore we should consider the truth, that "all things come in parables."

 

[Rev20]

For many years I was a part of the UPC. They believed that.

Don't know much about the UPC. I have been baptist over 50 years, and I am still not sure where baptists stands on the point about Jesus and the Father.

I believe Jesus is the Father because Jesus said he is:

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." -- John 1:10 KJV

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" -- John 14:9 KJV

Peter also proclaimed Jesus to be the father in this sequence:

"Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:" -- 2Pet 1:1 YLT

"for so, richly shall be superadded to you the entrance into the age-during reign of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." -- 2Pet 1:11 YLT

The only difference in those highlighted clauses are the words God and Lord, as highlighted below:

Vs. 1: τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
[our God and] Saviour Jesus Christ

Vs.11: τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

In other words, Peter said Jesus is our Lord, God, and Saviour. Paul used a similar construction in this passage:

"that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2Th 1:12 YLT

Jesus almost came out and said it in this verse;

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

In this verse there is only one throne:

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." -- Rev 22:1 KJV

And here, the two -- God and the Lamb -- are one:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." -- Rev 22:3-4 KJV

Rev

 

[Rev20]

Here are a few:

Luke 13:22-30
22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God.30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

...But I would caution you in considering context. For the context of those things of the world, is not the context of those things of the kingdom. Nor is the object of any parable, the subject thereof...and therefore we should consider the truth, that "all things come in parables."

I don't see how you found "two folds" in any of that, Scott. I stand by my interpretation that the two folds Jesus was referring to in John 10:16 are the houses of Judah and Israel, which he rejoined into one house -- one fold.

Rev

 

[ScottA]

I don't see how you found "two folds" in any of that, Scott. I stand by my interpretation that the two folds Jesus was referring to in John 10:16 are the houses of Judah and Israel, which he rejoined into one house -- one fold.

Rev

The two folds that you refer to regarding Israel, are one house, not two folds. But there is indeed a fold of the flesh, and a fold of the spirit, the dead and the living, which is undeniable whether or not you believe it.

 

[Rev20]

The two folds that you refer to regarding Israel, are one house, not two folds. But there is indeed a fold of the flesh, and a fold of the spirit, the dead and the living, which is undeniable whether or not you believe it.

Scott, the passages from Ezekiel that I quoted earlier make the house-sheepfold connection. Did you not read those quotes?

Rev

 

[ScottA]

Scott, the passages from Ezekiel that I quoted earlier make the house-sheepfold connection. Did you not read those quotes?

Rev

Yes, but nonetheless, they are one...under the same covenant - not an "other."

Look not to the flesh only, but also, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[mjrhealth]

If you received revelations from Jesus, please present them. If not, are you merely pretending to have receive revelations from Jesus so you can appear self-righteous? I choose the latter.

Rev

I have posted on these forum some of what i have being shown go look. Not that it would matter to you. Enough to say that it was Jesus Himself who showed and told me that He died for me, even called me by my name. But i doubt you would veer believe such things, Its the nature of carnal christians who dont believe what Jesus did at teh cross. Besides how could receiving revelation make one self righteous when it is His righteousness that allows it all to happen in the first place.

 

[mjrhealth]

I don't think there are any "carnal christians". A believer no longer has a "carnal mind". His mind serves the Law of God, his flesh serves the law of sin.
Unbelievers "are carnal, and have no interest in the things of God." They cannot please God.

and you think because one calls ones self a christians that they really are,

 

[tabletalk]

and you think because one calls ones self a christians that they really are,

No, I don't. I really don't know someone's heart. But, if there is such a thing as a "carnal Christian", it would be a professed Christian walking as if they are in the flesh (sinning without repentance).

 

[bbyrd009]

No, I don't. I really don't know someone's heart. But, if there is such a thing as a "carnal Christian", it would be a professed Christian walking as if they are in the flesh (sinning without repentance).

ya, imo a lot of the time it is done in ignorance--i did it for years, no one ever told me about owning up to my sins IRL in a church, as strange as that sounds--after some pastor gets done turning the faith/works boondoggle into mush. The progression is clear enough imo--i am a sinner, but then i got saved and accepted Jesus into my heart, therefore i must now be...oh, what was Scott's quote up there...ah, "...And being born again of the spirit of God...it is not I who speaks, but the spirit of Christ," meaning that since i loves me some Jesus, and pastor has assured me i am born again, i am now channeling Christ, ergo i cannot sin, so i don't need to confess anymore of course, and i sure don't need to do any works, because those are a sin now. Lol, what a mess

 

[amadeus]

Don't know much about the UPC. I have been baptist over 50 years, and I am still not sure where baptists stands on the point about Jesus and the Father.

I believe Jesus is the Father because Jesus said he is:

"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." -- John 1:10 KJV

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" -- John 14:9 KJV

Peter also proclaimed Jesus to be the father in this sequence:

"Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:" -- 2Pet 1:1 YLT

"for so, richly shall be superadded to you the entrance into the age-during reign of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." -- 2Pet 1:11 YLT

The only difference in those highlighted clauses are the words God and Lord, as highlighted below:

Vs. 1: τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
[our God and] Saviour Jesus Christ

Vs.11: τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

In other words, Peter said Jesus is our Lord, God, and Saviour. Paul used a similar construction in this passage:

"that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ." -- 2Th 1:12 YLT

Jesus almost came out and said it in this verse;

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." -- Rev 3:21 KJV

In this verse there is only one throne:

"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb." -- Rev 22:1 KJV

And here, the two -- God and the Lamb -- are one:

"And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads." -- Rev 22:3-4 KJV

Rev

I don't much about Baptists, but you don't seem to be following the party line from what I have heard.
The UPC is a Oneness, Jesus Only group sharply separated from any who support the trinity. I am not part of either of those. Thank you for providing the verses and explanations.

 

[bbyrd009]

The UPC is a Oneness, Jesus Only group sharply separated from any who support the trinity.

i kept hearing this as a member, but they pray to Jesus and talk about the Holy "Ghost." Not condemning that necessarily, but my meaning is i didn't see any difference in Oneness and Trinitarians, practically speaking. i was never able to grasp their argument, and no one was ever able to even state it to me simply, at least not without sounding like a hypocrite in the cross-examination.

 

[amadeus]

i kept hearing this as a member, but they pray to Jesus and talk about the Holy "Ghost." Not condemning that necessarily, but my meaning is i didn't see any difference in Oneness and Trinitarians, practically speaking. i was never able to grasp their argument, and no one was ever able to even state it to me simply, at least not without sounding like a hypocrite in the cross-examination.

They are according to some the opposite sides of the same coin, but most people arguing which is correct see a much greater divide than that.
One difference is that Oneness people speak words when water baptizing a person in accord with Acts 2:38. Trinitarians will usually speak words in accord with Matt 28:19.

The oneness people believe in one God that is manifested in different ways including, but not limited to, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. With them there not three persons. Since I don't believe with them any more it is more difficult for me to express it.

 

[bbyrd009]

They are according to some the opposite sides of the same coin, but most people arguing which is correct see a much greater divide than that.
One difference is that Oneness people speak words when water baptizing a person in accord with Acts 2:38. Trinitarians will usually speak words in accord with Matt 28:19.

The oneness people believe in one God that is manifested in different ways including, but not limited to, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. With them there not three persons. Since I don't believe with them any more it is more difficult for me to express it.

ha well trust me, it is hilarious to get them both on the same thread, tryna explain it, too. Sounds like BoL and Stranger going at each other or something, with all of the witnesses like "what the heck is going on here, they are both saying the same stuff, but they are also both loudly disagreeing with each other."

 

[Helen]

No, I don't. I really don't know someone's heart. But, if there is such a thing as a "carnal Christian", it would be a professed Christian walking as if they are in the flesh (sinning without repentance).

Or one who walks like many do...with one foot in the Spirit realm and one foot in the worldly realm...like those who love lots of distraction by entertainment and just does the once a week "Christian" thing in some "meeting" somewhere.
A stunted Christian that hasn't grown in the Spirit or word.
What do you think?