Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

ReChoired · Dec 7, 2019

Nancy said:
"So this thread is for that purpose, that we may all consider what we believe, why we believe it, by some searching, studying, thinking and praying."
Okay, so you were explicit! lol.

Trying.

Nancy · Dec 7, 2019

ReChoired said:
Yes, now look at the text in plain English:

Joh 21:15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Notice the highlighted words, carefully and think about it in the context of 'agape', 'phileo' and what you just acknowledged, "... He said it [agape] TWO times and the last time, he used phileo ..." (which is why I asked you previously)." Therefore, where is the "third time", unless both "agape" and "phileo" are equal as synonyms, like unto "jump", "leap", "hop", "bound", or "create", "make", "formed", etc. I can point to many other examples, even in the same text. Look at the word "feed".

Since you know Koine Greek...why don't you just tell me what you mean by "feed"? And, are you saying that the same sacrificial word for love-"agape" was being used all three times? This also of course, brings to mind when Peter denied Him 3 x.

ReChoired · Dec 7, 2019

Nancy said:
Since you know Koine Greek...why don't you just tell me what you mean by "feed"? And, are you saying that the same sacrificial word for love-"agape" was being used all three times? This also of course, brings to mind when Peter denied Him 3 x.

Ok, "feed", John 21:15-17

The word "feed" in vs 15 is G1006 (bosko; βοσκε).

The word "feed" in vs 16 is G4165 (poimaino; ποιμαινε).

The word "feed" in vs 17 is G1006 (bosko; βοσκε).

So, is one a deep intimate selfless feeding and the other a friendly brotherly feeding, or do they just mean "feed" and are synonyms in koine Greek, even as we have in English? Can God use synonyms in differing languages?

No, Jesus used agape two times, phileo once (in asking; therefore what did Jesus ask three times, being the "third time"), and Peter used phileo in replying three times.

Yes, Jesus was restoring Peter in the eyes of all, by giving him the chance to voice and demonstrate his love after being converted, and having denied him three times before being converted.

Nancy · Dec 7, 2019

ReChoired said:
Ok, "feed", John 21:15-17

The word "feed" in vs 15 is G1006 (bosko; βοσκε).

The word "feed" in vs 16 is G4165 (poimaino; ποιμαινε).

The word "feed" in vs 17 is G1006 (bosko; βοσκε).

So, is one a deep intimate selfless feeding and the other a friendly brotherly feeding, or do they just mean "feed" and are synonyms in koine Greek, even as we have in English? Can God use synonyms in differing languages?

No, Jesus used agape two times, phileo once (in asking; therefore what did Jesus ask three times, being the "third time"), and Peter used phileo in replying three times.

Yes, Jesus was restoring Peter in the eyes of all, by giving him the chance to voice and demonstrate his love after being converted, and having denied him three times before being converted.

Yes, that's what I said-about Jesus using agape 2x and on the last He used Phileo. Do you think Jesus was just "okay" with the brotherly love from Peter? Knowing that at Pentecost, Peter would then see what kind of love He was speaking of?

Sure, there are synonyms that can be used in any language, no? Are you saying that Jesus used synonyms with the word "feed" as well as "love"?

ReChoired · Dec 7, 2019

Nancy said:
... Are you saying that Jesus used synonyms with the word "feed" as well as "love"?

Yes. Demonstrated by the text itself ("third time"), even as many other examples can be given, for instance:

Isa 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

ReChoired · Dec 7, 2019

Nancy said:
brotherly love

The koine Greek of "brotherly love" is "philadelphos" (φιλαδελφιας), not "phileo" ("love")., and a synonymous statement is "αγαπαν αλληλους" (agape allelon)

1Th_4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

1Th 4:9 περι δε της φιλαδελφιας ου χρειαν εχετε γραφειν υμιν αυτοι γαρ υμεις θεοδιδακτοι εστε εις το αγαπαν αλληλους

The text is chiastic (parallel to itself, like a "v" shape, once side matching the other), the first half being equal to the latter half (Ezekiel 18:29).

brakelite · Dec 7, 2019

brakelite · Dec 7, 2019

Nancy said:
Very good, and important words BL,
I will say that I was convicted several times throughout your post. Doctrine is very important and we certainly should know why we believe what we do. But to sit there and watch some guy talking to me in a 55 minute video, not to mention some really long posts to decipher...one could get overwhelmed (at least, I do) would have to dedicate more time than one might have or perhaps someone like myself, I just plain don't understand all those charts and letters in Koine Greek or Hebrew. But, concerning the OP, if somebody replies to it, and gives their 4 beliefs, shouldn't that be enough? If what they wrote or read had made them think about things, that's a good thing. Just way too much content in my book. The poor thread took off pretty well, IMHO, but took a nasty turn somewhere.

Hi Nancy. I don't think anyone expects you to take in everything in one sitting. Like I said in my post, I spent several months studying just one aspect of Adventist teaching (the Sabbath) before coming to a conclusion. It took me 5 further years studying other aspects, like the sanctuary, before I joined the actual church, although I was fellowshiping with Adventists throughout that time.
Just a little at a time as God leads, and as you feel able to digest. The importance though is to be willing to allow God free reign to lead you where He wills. And no, limiting ourselves to just four is limiting God's power to enlighten. The video I posted above, just a half hour, I believe is perfectly pertinent to our conversation. I think you will enjoy. Ty Gibson is one of our leading Adventist teachers today, and offers deep profound perspectives, yet in terms the most simple I believe can understand...perfect for me.

Enoch111 · Dec 7, 2019

ReChoired said:
Have you always been a 'dispensational'? Could that position be incorrect?

The correct term is 'Dispensationalist" and Dispensationlists allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves. They do not allegorize and spiritualize away Bible truth. One of the key results is that they see the Church and redeemed and restored Israel as two distinct entities, and that is clearly revealed in Romans 11 (and throughout the Bible).

Nancy · Dec 7, 2019

brakelite said:
Hi Nancy. I don't think anyone expects you to take in everything in one sitting. Like I said in my post, I spent several months studying just one aspect of Adventist teaching (the Sabbath) before coming to a conclusion. It took me 5 further years studying other aspects, like the sanctuary, before I joined the actual church, although I was fellowshiping with Adventists throughout that time.
Just a little at a time as God leads, and as you feel able to digest. The importance though is to be willing to allow God free reign to lead you where He wills. And no, limiting ourselves to just four is limiting God's power to enlighten. The video I posted above, just a half hour, I believe is perfectly pertinent to our conversation. I think you will enjoy. Ty Gibson is one of our leading Adventist teachers today, and offers deep profound perspectives, yet in terms the most simple I believe can understand...perfect for me.

Ty B.L.
I will check out the vid.

ReChoired · Dec 7, 2019

Enoch111 said:
The correct term is 'Dispensationalist" and Dispensationlists allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves. They do not allegorize and spiritualize away Bible truth. One of the key results is that they see the Church and redeemed and restored Israel as two distinct entities, and that is clearly revealed in Romans 11 (and throughout the Bible).

Nancy · Dec 7, 2019

brakelite said:

I enjoyed Ty's teaching. The face of God, cannot see and then we will see

...do you think that we will see His face (Rev. 22:4) and live, only in our new glorious bodies? There can be no other way that I can think of.
A lot of the things he said are continual prayers for His will and for His Spirit to shine the light in my heart...it hurts...I've always realized that but, it is so needed...let it hurt to see our own sin. Let it convict us and move us to repent in these areas! The more I pray that His Spirit shine His light into my darkness, the more He shows me and it is not pretty. The sin that I thought would never leave me have turned out to be the easiest, through His grace. But, oh boy when He shines into your darkness

I loved the quote by Paul Laurence Dunbar, esp. "With torn and bleeding hearts, we smile" Been there and am still somewhat but, nothing like it used to be. How pretentious was I!!! Yes, "fear of rejection"...so happy to see Him work after years of asking Him these things! For as for myself, to be "self conscience" is BAD but to be Christ conscience is all that is needed.
"Psychic tension" Oh yeah, that knee jerk reaction...
"brings out the beast of Rev. 13 <--- lol.
Okay, just rambling here but, thanks for the video, he is a good teacher.

Enoch111 · Dec 7, 2019

ReChoired said:
Jesus is Israel

That is false theology. So there would be no point in looking at anything else. Jesus CANNOT be a nation for the simple reason that He is God. He rules over the nations, including Israel in the future.

amadeus · Dec 7, 2019

ReChoired said:
Look to Him? How do I identify Him? There are many which present themselves as 'Jesus', even 'Messiah' and 'Christ' these days.

For instance, you mention a 'prayer language', that you refuse to type here, for others to translate, and yet I do not see Jesus, my example in the Christian life and prayer life, doing anything like that in all of the OT or NT. So, do I follow the Jesus and His example, that scripture identifies, or another?

The prayer language is mine, given to me for me for my communication with God. It is not a gift of messages from God requiring an interpreter. With whom did Daniel share that which God told him was sealed?

Then again in response to your final question:

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4

If you are one of His sheep, you should know the answers. If you are not one of His sheep perhaps you should consider how one becomes one of His sheep.

Helen · Dec 7, 2019

ReChoired said:
Yes. Demonstrated by the text itself ("third time"), even as many other examples can be given, for instance:

Isa 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

I have to confess , that now you are writing in bite sized mouthfuls ..I can understand what you are saying much clearer.

brakelite · Dec 7, 2019

Nancy said:
I enjoyed Ty's teaching. The face of God, cannot see and then we will see ...do you think that we will see His face (Rev. 22:4) and live, only in our new glorious bodies? There can be no other way that I can think of.
A lot of the things he said are continual prayers for His will and for His Spirit to shine the light in my heart...it hurts...I've always realized that but, it is so needed...let it hurt to see our own sin. Let it convict us and move us to repent in these areas! The more I pray that His Spirit shine His light into my darkness, the more He shows me and it is not pretty. The sin that I thought would never leave me have turned out to be the easiest, through His grace. But, oh boy when He shines into your darkness
I loved the quote by Paul Laurence Dunbar, esp. "With torn and bleeding hearts, we smile" Been there and am still somewhat but, nothing like it used to be. How pretentious was I!!! Yes, "fear of rejection"...so happy to see Him work after years of asking Him these things! For as for myself, to be "self conscience" is BAD but to be Christ conscience is all that is needed.
"Psychic tension" Oh yeah, that knee jerk reaction...
"brings out the beast of Rev. 13 <--- lol.
Okay, just rambling here but, thanks for the video, he is a good teacher.

There is an Adventist teaching we derive from scripture, different from dispensational teachings, that shows that at the time of the resurrectionand the second coming all the redeemed go with Jesus to heaven for the 1000 years...there we will see God face to face. The declaration of Jesus that the meek shall inherit the earth apples to when all of us return to the earth at the end of the millennium at which time the earth and the heavens are made new. We come down in the new city Jerusalem and the earth becomes the capital of the universeand where the Father and His children dwell forever.

Enoch111 · Dec 7, 2019

brakelite said:
There is an Adventist teaching we derive from scripture, different from dispensational teachings, that shows that at the time of the resurrection and the second coming all the redeemed go with Jesus to heaven for the 1000 years.

How can the time of the resurrection of the saints also be the time of the Second Coming? Do you see a resurrection of the saints here, or the exact OPPOSITE?

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

Behold, he cometh with clouds [the saints and angels]; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)

While Adventist doctrine has some teachings which are biblical, they have other teachings which are not. And some are key teachings.

ReChoired · Dec 8, 2019

Helen said:
I have to confess , that now you are writing in bite sized mouthfuls ..I can understand what you are saying much clearer.

Some of us have bigger mouths than others.

so my mouthfuls may sometimes not be others. Sorry my spoon is too large.

My cup runneth over, and plate filled with abundance, and gifts pouring down from heaven in torrents of blessing. I do try Helen. Really.

ReChoired · Dec 8, 2019

Enoch111 said:
That is false theology. So there would be no point in looking at anything else. Jesus CANNOT be a nation for the simple reason that He is God. He rules over the nations, including Israel in the future.

How is it false, according to the texts I cited? They are clear. Wherein the text cited have I erred in what they teach?

In Hosea 11:1 it refers to "my [the LORD's] son" and that Son's name therein is "Israel" (even as in other places His name is David, Immanuel, Adam, etc), not a nation.

Yet, even so, a single person can also represent a "nation", even as Jacob/'Israel' did. It was not a natural name, it was an heavenly name, given for the spiritual victory. It first belongs to the Son, who gave Jacob that name, in type. Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost, who also inspired Hosea, states that Jesus is the truest fulfillment of Hosea 11:1.

Even Abraham, is a single person who represented a nation of Levites (in Abraham's loins), see Paul's entire argument in Hebrews 7.

ReChoired · Dec 8, 2019

Enoch111 said:
How can the time of the resurrection of the saints also be the time of the Second Coming?

Good question, these videos and texts may be of assistance to you:

End-Time 13 - Armageddon & The 7 Last Plagues - Sister Helen

End-Time 14 - Hope For The Millennium & Revelation's Grand Finale - Sister Helen

E: [a special resurrection, some righteous, some wicked - to witness Christ coming in Power in Glory to fulfill His Word] Daniel 12:1-3,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13

F: [[first great] resurrection [of the saints, just, life, before/at start of the 1000 years when Christ Jesus returns in Power and Glory], raised] 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; [All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels [the "reapers"] with Him] Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7

G: [2nd Advent/Coming in Power and Glory, with all the holy angels, even unto the 3rd] Zechariah 14:1-7 [3rd]; Daniel 2:35,44,45, 7:14,22,27, 8:25, 12:1-3; Matthew 19:28, 24:30, 25:31; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27; 1 Corinthians 15:43; 2 Thessalonians 1:9

H: [[second great] resurrection [of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints [then immortal] descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20]] John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a

I: [resurrection of unjust/damnation takes place on earth] Revelation 20:5,7-15

Here are the texts of Revelation 20:1-7 cited:

Revelation 20:1 - And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 - And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 - And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 - But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 - Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 - And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Please notice, that in these texts [Revelation 20:1-7], there is no where written that either Jesus, or the “saints” (or “satan” for that matter), shall “reign upon the earth” for 1,000 years, but simply says [vss. 4,6] that Jesus and the saints reigned “a thousand years”. The location of this 1,000 reign is nowhere stated to be “upon the earth” in these, or any passages of scripture [KJB]. Revelation 20:1 refers to Jesus coming “down” from Heaven but not touching the sin polluted earth, which connects to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 in its “descend from Heaven”. Revelation 20:6 speaks of the “first resurrection”, which is connected to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, in its “the dead in Christ shall rise first” and “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”, which ties into John 14:1-4. One should very carefully look for themselves. It also is very clearly written that “satan” himself was not reigning during this “thousand years”, but is “bound” and “shut … up” with a “seal” placed “upon him”.

The phrase “the day of the Lord” [Isaiah 2:12, 13:6,9, 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Lamentations 2:22; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7,8,14,18, 2:2,3; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Acts 2:20; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Corinthians 1:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10], is a direct reference to the “thousand years” [Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7, see also Isaiah 24:22, “many days”], which is the final “day”, the 7th day – the great Sabbath, of the great week “with the Lord” [2 Peter 3:8].

The second Advent of Jesus Christ, wherein the “saints” are “caught up together … in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 20:1-6] is but the beginning of the “thousand years” or “the day of the Lord”, while the third Advent of Jesus Christ [Zechariah 14:1-21; Revelation 20:7-10] is the ending of the “thousand years” or “the day of the Lord”, after which the finally impenitent shall be utterly destroyed in the second death, and finally the “New Heavens” and the “New Earth” are recreated [Isaiah 65:17, 66:22; 2 Peter 3:13; Revelation 21:1] which the “meek shall inherit”.

Revelation 19-22, is parallel to Isaiah 24, and so also connected to Leviticus 16:1-34, 23:26-32.

Y do U believe what U believe, and do U have good reasons 4 those beliefs? - let's find out.

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