Yahweh Says to Adoni

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
9,732
4,819
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
This, I think, cannot be said enough.

The God of the human Jesus is the Father. No one else. Nothing else. The Father alone. YHWH. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

The human Jesus isn’t a trinitarian. The human Jesus is a unitarian.

Trinitarians may speak of unitarians however they wish to, and they typically (there are exceptions) wish to in negative ways.

I would remind the trinitarians that when they speak negatively about unitarians they are speaking negatively about the human Jesus.
 

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, and the word which is translated "Lord" in the original Greek means "Supreme in authority that is controller; God Lord Master Sir."

1 Corinthians 12:3
[3]Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


Greek: κύριος
Transliteration: kurios
Pronunciation: koo'-ree-os
Definition: From κῦρος kuros (supremacy);
supreme in authority that is (as noun) controller; by implication Mr . (as a respectful title): - God Lord master Sir.
KJV Usage: Lord (667x), lord (54x), master (11x), sir (6x), Sir (6x), misc (4x).
Occurs: 748
In verses: 687

You still need to consider that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18). And that no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3). And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord.

For Jesus is not "a lord"; and neither is the Father "a lord".

They can both be defined as "the Lord".

So, whether you call Jesus and the Father, "Sir", "God", "Lord" or "Master"...

It should be clear that they are the same "Sir", "God", "Lord", or "Master."

Question.

Can you say that Jesus is the Lord in light of what it says in Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, and 2 Corinthians 6:17-18?

If you cannot, then you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3);

And therefore you do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).

Now you do have an opportunity in your response to me, to confess that Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture in light of these verses.

Just to make it clear, let me quote them for you.

Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

2Co 6:17, Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
 
Last edited:

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This, I think, cannot be said enough.

The God of the human Jesus is the Father. No one else. Nothing else. The Father alone. YHWH. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel.

The human Jesus isn’t a trinitarian. The human Jesus is a unitarian.

Trinitarians may speak of unitarians however they wish to, and they typically (there are exceptions) wish to in negative ways.

I would remind the trinitarians that when they speak negatively about unitarians they are speaking negatively about the human Jesus.
The human Jesus knows who He is (that He's God)...
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
9,732
4,819
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
The human Jesus knows who He is (that He's God)...

The human Jesus knows that he is not the Trinity, nor the second person of the Trinity.

The human Jesus also knows that he isn’t the one God, the Father.

The human Jesus is a Jewish monotheist.

The human Jesus is God. The question is, how?

Trinitarianism has an answer.

Binitarianism has an answer.

Unitarianism has an answer.

More specifically, Jewish monotheism, a particular form of unitarianism, has an answer. This is the one which I find persuasive. The Jewish law of agency.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
9,732
4,819
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
You're going to have to spell it out for me.

“Agent (Heb. Shaliah): The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum, ‘a person’s agent is regarded as the person himself’ (Ned. 72B; Kidd, 41b). Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent.”

(The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, p. 15)

“Jesus is thus a faithful shaliach, or agent; Jewish law taught that the man’s agent was as a man himself (backed by his full authority), to the extent that the agent faithfully represented him. Moses and the Old Testament prophets were sometimes viewed as God’s agents.”

(Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary New Testament, on John 10:30)

How well does that Jewish concept fit with a Jewish man - the human Jesus - who claims to be the Messiah raised up and sent by the one God, when he says “he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me?” (Luke 10:16)?
 

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus said, Before Abraham was, I AM.

He claimed to exist in the days of Abraham and He was not yet fifty years old.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
9,732
4,819
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.”

(Deuteronomy 18:15)

“YHWH said to me, ‘They have spoken well. I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to my words which he will speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.’”

(Deuteronomy 18:18)

Those among the Jews who don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah don’t believe this prophecy is about him.

“I have not spoken on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what I should say” (John 12:49).

In Acts, Peter appeals to the passage in Deuteronomy to bolster his argument that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
9,732
4,819
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Jesus said, Before Abraham was, I AM. He claimed to exist in the days of Abraham and He was not yet fifty years old.

Have you seen William Barclay’s commentary on this passage of scripture? He handles it deftly. I find it persuasive.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
9,732
4,819
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
”All the previous lightning flashes pale into insignificance before the blaze of this passage. When Jesus said to the Jews that Abraham had rejoiced to see his day, he was talking language that they could understand. The Jews had many beliefs about Abraham which would enable them to see what Jesus was implying. There were altogether five different ways in which they would interpret the language.

(a) Abraham was living in Paradise and able to see what was happening on earth. Jesus used that idea in the Parable of Dives and Lazarus (Luke 16:22-31). That is the simplest way to interpret this saying.

(b) But that is not the correct interpretation. Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day, the past tense. The Jews interpreted many passages of scripture in a way that explains this. They took the great promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:3: ‘By you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves,’ and said that when that promise was made, Abraham knew that it meant that the Messiah of God was to come from him and rejoiced at the magnificent promise.

(c) Some of the Rabbis held that in Genesis 15:8-21 Abraham was given a vision of the whole future of the nation of Israel and therefore had a vision beforehand of the time when the Messiah would come.

(d) Some of the Rabbis took Genesis 17:17, which tells how Abraham laughed when he heard that a son would be born to him, not as a laugh of unbelief, but as a laugh of sheer joy that from him the Messiah would come.

(e) Some of the Rabbis had a fanciful interpretation of Genesis 24:21...in a vision given by God Abraham had entered into the days which lay ahead, and had seen the whole history of the people and the coming of Messiah.

From all this we see clearly that the Jews did believe that somehow Abraham, while he was still alive, had a vision of the history of Israel and the coming of the Messiah. He was really saying: ‘I am the Messiah Abraham saw in his vision.’...

To us these ideas are strange; to a Jew they were quite normal, for he believed that Abraham had already seen the day when the Messiah would come.

The Jews, although they knew better, chose to take this literally. ‘How,’ they demanded, ‘can you have seen Abraham when you are not yet fifty?’”

(William Barclay, The Gospel of John, Vol 2, pp. 34-36, Revised Edition)
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Adoni occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible. It is a title reserved for human beings and occasionally angels.
  1. Genesis 18:12
  2. Genesis 23:6
  3. Genesis 23:11
  4. Genesis 23:15
  5. Genesis 24:12
  6. Genesis 24:12
  7. Genesis 24:14
  8. Genesis 24:18
  9. Genesis 24:27
  10. Genesis 24:27
  11. Genesis 24:27
  12. Genesis 24:35
  13. Genesis 24:36
  14. Genesis 24:36
  15. Genesis 24:37
  16. Genesis 24:39
  17. Genesis 24:42
  18. Genesis 24:44
  19. Genesis 24:48
  20. Genesis 24:48
  21. Genesis 24:49
  22. Genesis 24:54
  23. Genesis 24:56
  24. Genesis 24:65
  25. Genesis 31:35
  26. Genesis 32:4
  27. Genesis 32:5
  28. Genesis 32:18
  29. Genesis 33:8
  30. Genesis 33:13
  31. Genesis 33:14
  32. Genesis 33:14
  33. Genesis 33:15
  34. Genesis 39:8
  35. Genesis 42:10
  36. Genesis 43:20
  37. Genesis 44:5
  38. Genesis 44:7
  39. Genesis 44:9
  40. Genesis 44:16
  41. Genesis 44:16
  42. Genesis 44:18
  43. Genesis 44:18
  44. Genesis 44:19
  45. Genesis 44:20
  46. Genesis 44:22
  47. Genesis 44:24
  48. Genesis 44:33
  49. Genesis 47:18
  50. Genesis 47:18
  51. Genesis 47:18
  52. Genesis 47:25
  53. Exodus 21:5
  54. Exodus 32:22
  55. Numbers 11:28
  56. Numbers 12:11
  57. Numbers 32:25
  58. Numbers 32:27
  59. Numbers 36:2
  60. Numbers 36:2
  61. Joshua 5:14
  62. Judges 4:18
  63. Judges 6:13
  64. Ruth 2:13
  65. 1 Samuel 1:15
  66. 1 Samuel 1:26
  67. 1 Samuel 1:26
  68. 1 Samuel 22:12
  69. 1 Samuel 24:6
  70. 1 Samuel 24:8
  71. 1 Samuel 24:10
  72. 1 Samuel 25:24
  73. 1 Samuel 25:25
  74. 1 Samuel 25:25
  75. 1 Samuel 25:26
  76. 1 Samuel 25:26
  77. 1 Samuel 25:27
  78. 1 Samuel 25:27
  79. 1 Samuel 25:28
  80. 1 Samuel 25:28
  81. 1 Samuel 25:29
  82. 1 Samuel 25:30
  83. 1 Samuel 25:31
  84. 1 Samuel 25:31
  85. 1 Samuel 25:31
  86. 1 Samuel 25:41
  87. 1 Samuel 26:17
  88. 1 Samuel 26:18
  89. 1 Samuel 26:19
  90. 1 Samuel 29:8
  91. 1 Samuel 30:13
  92. 1 Samuel 30:15
  93. 2 Samuel 1:10
  94. 2 Samuel 3:21
  95. 2 Samuel 4:8
  96. 2 Samuel 9:11
  97. 2 Samuel 11:11
  98. 2 Samuel 11:11
  99. 2 Samuel 13:32
  100. 2 Samuel 13:33
  101. 2 Samuel 14:9
  102. 2 Samuel 14:12
  103. 2 Samuel 14:15
  104. 2 Samuel 14:17
  105. 2 Samuel 14:17
  106. 2 Samuel 14:18
  107. 2 Samuel 14:19
  108. 2 Samuel 14:19
  109. 2 Samuel 14:20
  110. 2 Samuel 14:22
  111. 2 Samuel 15:15
  112. 2 Samuel 15:21
  113. 2 Samuel 15:21
  114. 2 Samuel 16:4
  115. 2 Samuel 16:9
  116. 2 Samuel 18:28
  117. 2 Samuel 18:31
  118. 2 Samuel 18:32
  119. 2 Samuel 19:19
  120. 2 Samuel 19:19
  121. 2 Samuel 19:20
  122. 2 Samuel 19:26
  123. 2 Samuel 19: 27
  124. 2 Samuel 19:27
  125. 2 Samuel 19:28
  126. 2 Samuel 19:30
  127. 2 Samuel 19:35
  128. 2 Samuel 19:37
  129. 2 Samuel 24:3
  130. 2 Samuel 24:3
  131. 2 Samuel 24:21
  132. 2 Samuel 24:22
  133. 1 Kings 1:2
  134. 1 Kings 1:2
  135. 1 Kings 1:13
  136. 1 Kings 1:17
  137. 1 Kings 1:18
  138. 1 Kings 1:20
  139. 1 Kings 1:20
  140. 1 Kings 1:21
  141. 1 Kings 1:24
  142. 1 Kings 1:27
  143. 1 Kings 1:27
  144. 1 Kings 1:31
  145. 1 Kings 1:36
  146. 1 Kings 1:37
  147. 1 Kings 1:37
  148. 1 Kings 2:38
  149. 1 Kings 3:17
  150. 1 Kings 3:26
  151. 1 Kings 18:7
  152. 1 Kings 18:10
  153. 1 Kings 18:13
  154. 1 Kings 20:4
  155. 1 Kings 20:9
  156. 2 Kings 2:19
  157. 2 Kings 4:16
  158. 2 Kings 4:28
  159. 2 Kings 5:3
  160. 2 Kings 5:18
  161. 2 Kings 5:20
  162. 2 Kings 5:22
  163. 2 Kings 6:5
  164. 2 Kings 6:12
  165. 2 Kings 6:15
  166. 2 Kings 6:26
  167. 2 Kings 8:5
  168. 2 Kings 8:12
  169. 2 Kings 10:9
  170. 2 Kings 18:23
  171. 2 Kings 18:24
  172. 2 Kings 18:27
  173. 1 Chronicles 21:3
  174. 1 Chronicles 21:3
  175. 1 Chronicles 21:3
  176. 1 Chronicles 21:23
  177. 2 Chronicles 2:14
  178. 2 Chronicles 2:15
  179. Psalm 110:1
  180. Isaiah 36:8
  181. Isaiah 36:9
  182. Isaiah 36:12
  183. Jeremiah 37:20
  184. Jeremiah 38:9
  185. Daniel 1:10
  186. Daniel 10:16
  187. Daniel 10:17
  188. Daniel 10:17
  189. Daniel 10: 19
  190. Daniel 12:8
  191. Zechariah 1:9
  192. Zechariah 4:4
  193. Zechariah 4:5
  194. Zechariah 4:13
  195. Zechariah 6:4

so what? Elohim is also used for human beings, false gods, false idols, do we then conclude, that when used for the God of the Bible, it should not be understood as GOD, but, "god", or "divine", or "judge", or "idol"?

Your reasoning is based simply on the FACT, that you cannot admit to the TRUTH as in the Bible, that Jesus Christ is YAHWEH. And therefore ALMIGHTY GOD!
 
  • Like
Reactions: TLHKAJ

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
9,732
4,819
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
“Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

(John 14:24, NIV)

Jesus is the prophet like Moses whom the one God promised he would raise up from among the people.

Anyone who doesn’t believe that is true is going to believe Jesus is acting on his own authority, not on God’s authority, and accuse him of blaspheming God.
 

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
”All the previous lightning flashes pale into insignificance before the blaze of this passage. When Jesus said to the Jews that Abraham had rejoiced to see his day, he was talking language that they could understand. The Jews had many beliefs about Abraham which would enable them to see what Jesus was implying. There were altogether five different ways in which they would interpret the language.

(a) Abraham was living in Paradise and able to see what was happening on earth. Jesus used that idea in the Parable of Dives and Lazarus (Luke 16:22-31). That is the simplest way to interpret this saying.

(b) But that is not the correct interpretation. Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day, the past tense. The Jews interpreted many passages of scripture in a way that explains this. They took the great promise to Abraham in Genesis 12:3: ‘By you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves,’ and said that when that promise was made, Abraham knew that it meant that the Messiah of God was to come from him and rejoiced at the magnificent promise.

(c) Some of the Rabbis held that in Genesis 15:8-21 Abraham was given a vision of the whole future of the nation of Israel and therefore had a vision beforehand of the time when the Messiah would come.

(d) Some of the Rabbis took Genesis 17:17, which tells how Abraham laughed when he heard that a son would be born to him, not as a laugh of unbelief, but as a laugh of sheer joy that from him the Messiah would come.

(e) Some of the Rabbis had a fanciful interpretation of Genesis 24:21...in a vision given by God Abraham had entered into the days which lay ahead, and had seen the whole history of the people and the coming of Messiah.

From all this we see clearly that the Jews did believe that somehow Abraham, while he was still alive, had a vision of the history of Israel and the coming of the Messiah. He was really saying: ‘I am the Messiah Abraham saw in his vision.’...

To us these ideas are strange; to a Jew they were quite normal, for he believed that Abraham had already seen the day when the Messiah would come.

The Jews, although they knew better, chose to take this literally. ‘How,’ they demanded, ‘can you have seen Abraham when you are not yet fifty?’”

(William Barclay, The Gospel of John, Vol 2, pp. 34-36, Revised Edition)

try all you like, you cannot refute the TRUTH of the OP!
 
  • Like
Reactions: TLHKAJ

ByGraceThroughFaith

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2021
2,870
852
113
Dudley
trinitystudies.org
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
“Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.”

(John 14:24, NIV)

Jesus is the prophet like Moses whom the one God promised he would raise up from among the people.

Anyone who doesn’t believe that is true is going to believe Jesus is acting on his own authority, not on God’s authority, and accuse him of blaspheming God.


The Jews themselves understood Jesus to say that He is GOD!

"For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" John 5:18

Very clear, which is twisted by those who prefer lies to Truth!
 
  • Like
Reactions: TLHKAJ

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The human Jesus knows that he is not the Trinity, nor the second person of the Trinity.

The human Jesus also knows that he isn’t the one God, the Father.

The Spirit of Jesus testifies:

Col 2:8, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 

Matthias

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2022
9,732
4,819
113
Kentucky
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
The Spirit of Jesus testifies:

Col 2:8, Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9, For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

That’s right.

Christ himself is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

For philosophy, I refer our readers to Greek philosophy which supports the doctrine of the Trinity.
 

heartwashed

Active Member
Jul 18, 2022
356
54
28
51
LA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That’s right.

Christ himself is a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.

For philosophy, I refer our readers to Greek philosophy which supports the doctrine of the Trinity.

I am a monotheist, as a Trinitarian.

So you admit that Jesus understood that He was and is God (in that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells within Him in bodily form).

The Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) without flesh who inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15).

Jesus, being God, is the same Spirit (John 4:24, Ephesians 4:4) dwelling in human flesh (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

Thus there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4), even one God (James 2:19).

The distinction in the Persons being that God the Father did not VACATE ETERNITY when He descended to become a Man.

And therefore, the Father dwells in heaven as a Spirit without flesh;

While the same Spirit / Person dwells in flesh in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Thus there are three distinct Persons who are in fact the same Person (God).